10 ms·

Discworld Rules

277 points by jger15 2y ago

dinkblam 2y ago
i've had good success getting ChatGPT to generate new short stories set in the diskworld universe and written in prachett's style. even the jokes were funny.
megadata 2y ago
There are many ways of rightly praising Discword without sucker punching LOTR.
dcminter 2y ago
I mean addressing the initial proposition - of course a work of satire/parody of the real world is going to be a better basis for thinking about the real world than a work of escapism! The rest of it, I think, won't persuade anyone to read Discworld novels who's resisted them so far. Those who have and love them will find it a pleasant enough survey. Oh and I personally think that Equal Rites is the best entry point to the series rather than Sourcery. But then I was reading them in publishing order anyway and eagerly waiting for each new one to come out. Damn I miss being able to look forward to a new Pratchett novel; he was a Wodehouse for my generation.
- teddyh 2y ago
  “Equal Rites” is the first in the “witches” series, but is, IIUC, considered a very weak entry. The rest of the witches series don’t really acknowledge the events in it, and they start off the next book with a blank slate, not assuming that you have read the first one. If you really just want to read the witches series, I’d suggest that you instead start with the second book, “Wyrd Sisters”.
  - dcminter 2y ago
    His very last book has Esk in it. I understand the view, I just don't agree. It has lots of nice subtle jokes in it and was the first to have a bit more depth to the story rather than being a slightly scattered and episodic parody of thr fantasy genre. But then I like Dark Side and Strata a lot too. Edit to add: incidentally there are a lot of minor throwaway jokes throughout the series that require you to have read the preceding books to get them. That in itself is IMO enough reason to aim to read them in publication order. But you do you, he was very prolific, I can see why someone coming in after the fact might choose not to tackle the whole lot from beginning to end.
  - nsbk 2y ago
    What entry point would you recommend to a total newcomer to the series?
    - zabzonk 2y ago
      "Lords & Ladies", and then expand out in both/all directions. Horrible elves, Granny at her best (and Nanny), Magrat the killer queen, Morris dancing, stupid wizzards and lots of other stuff - what's not to like? Probably just because it's my fave. But you can read them and enjoy in any order.
      - nsbk 2y ago
        That sounds like a lot of fun indeed! Thanks for the advice
      - cancerhacker 2y ago
        The only reason I disagree is that L&L jumps in with some very well established characters that had been built up earlier. But I do love his (historically accurate by lore?) description of elves. He put a lot of research into re-establishing the myths and lore of his little corner of the world. (Along those lines I would also recommend Susanna Clarke’s “Jonathan Strange & Mr Norell” which builds its own parallel history set in the early 1800s Britain, with Fairies taking the same role as elves in discworld.
        rsynnott 2y ago
        > But I do love his (historically accurate by lore?) description of elves. Yeah, more or less. The “elves/fairies are nice, or at least _good_” thing is a fairly modern creation (owing a lot to Tolkien, really).
        dcminter 2y ago
        I think Susannah Clarke is the only living author I can think of who would inspire the same enthusiasm from me upon news of a new book from them. Alas, she is not quite as prolific as PTerry :) Mustn't grumble though, it's not like Jonathan Strange was a pamphlet!
- lc9er 2y ago
  Wodehouse is a great comparison. I typically suggest people start with “Guards! Guards!”, but the Witches or Night Watch books are both great starting points - Granny Weatherwax and Sam Vimes are probably the most explored characters, followed by Death, Tiffany, and Moist. If you like “Guards! Guards!” or “Equal Rites”, then go back and start from the beginning. The first two novels are fun, but sound like Pratchett was channeling Monty Python and Douglas Adams. It took a few books before his own voice really shined through.
- asjir 2y ago
  Why not start with Colour of Magic? For context, I started with it, then Light Fantastic and I'm finishing Sourcery now.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    Many of the cultural references are to other fantasy books and comics from the 1980s, so they're increasingly lost on current readers. I generally recommend starting with Wyrd Sisters, since many people are familiar with Macbeth.
  - dcminter 2y ago
    I did too (a long time ago when I was 13). But I think there was a change in tone with and continuing after Equal Rites, in that the characters and story were a bit more thorough rather than being, essentially, a sketch-show vehicle for parody and quips. Besides, it introduces Granny Weatherwax, who is IMO one of his two greatest creations (the other being Vimes of course). Edit: Oh, by the way, if you're just now working your way through them then (a) I envy you and (b) I recommend reading the Annotated Pratchett File for each book - after you finish each of course: https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      > I recommend reading the Annotated Pratchett File for each book - after you finish each of course: https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ Sadly, it’s pretty sparse or non-existent for the later books, but the TVTropes pages on them are usually very good, and cover a lot of the same ground.
    - asjir 2y ago
      Ahh, I see, thank you (and other commenters) I was a bit surprised by the change in tone in a way I probably wouldn't've been if I'd read chronologically.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    You certainly _can_, but they’re more or less straight-up parody fantasy, and _very_ different to the rest of the series.
- tsumnia 2y ago
  I followed the prescribed unofficial Reading Order graphic when I started the series (only 10ish books in), and I've jumped around between all the different protagonists. Color of Magic, Mort, Guards Guards, and the Equal Rites do well enough to show you what the Disc is all about, the absurdity of normalcy, and some of the crazy antics people get into. I think it may be more a matter of what "type" of fiction are you looking for - a constantly terrified Rincewind in a world of magic, a new to the job Mort where no one believes HE is Death, a tired Sam Vimes trying to understand a world that is changing faster than he can keep up, or the witches the reject all the social rules of the land. Really the only one I wouldn't recommend first is Small Gods, but mostly because its very self contained to the Klatchian region while the others are on another continent.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    > I wouldn't recommend first is Small Gods, but mostly because its very self contained to the Klatchian region while the others are on another continent. For the same reason, "Small Gods" is actually a great introduction to the series. I think it's really my favorite book in the series.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  I’d agree on Equal Rites; Sourcery is a _weird_ Discworld book, though I think it’s the one that most blatantly hits the theme, which shows up more subtly elsewhere, that “great men (TM)” are _a bad thing_.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > Sourcery is a _weird_ Discworld book He must have liked it; he rewrote it later as Good Omens.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      Oh, yeah, I’m not saying it’s bad, but it’s… kind of what TVTropes calls Early Installment Weirdness; it feels very different to what comes later.
    - dcminter 2y ago
      Could you explain? I don't see much similarity between them.
      - Detrytus 2y ago
        In both protagonist is a super powerful boy, unintentionally bringing the world on the brink of Armageddon?
        dcminter 2y ago
        Well, I guess...? Tonally they feel completely different and Good Omens draws a lot of its DNA from The Omen (and, wonderfully, Richmal Crompton) whereas I don't see any of that in Sourcery. I find it hard to see Good Omens as a do-over of Sourcery, but I guess they do have something in common.
        trowawee 2y ago
        Probably worth noting that Pratchett wrote most of the "Adam and the gang" sections of Good Omens, while Gaiman was responsible for the riders and the more "mythological" parts. So I do see a pretty clear throughline from Sourcery to the Pratchett parts of Good Omens.
crowselect 2y ago
As someone who deeply loves LOTR - if you try to apply the rules of LOTR to this world, you will make this world worse. This is true. Inheritance and monarchy does not make for a good government, and we know this. But LOTR is about vibes not facts. Friendship, loyalty, hope, doing the right thing with what power you have, appreciating what is good and green and gentle in the world, etc. > the more seriously you take Middle Earth, the dumber you get about Roundworld The more seriously you take the rules of LOTR, yes. But you can take LOTR seriously without taking the rules seriously - by taking the vibes seriously.
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  > Inheritance and monarchy does not make for a good government, and we know this. Monarchy makes for some of both the best and worst governments on record. The problem isn't that you can't get good results, but rather the extreme variance.
  - crowselect 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
      Or to a slave in a Republic (whether that's the Confederacy, Rome or Athens).
      - crowselect 2y ago
        What does that have to do with monarchy?
        Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
        The same thing that serfdom has to do with monarchy. In other words, nothing.
IsTom 2y ago
> Roundworld isn’t even modeled in the Middle Earth cosmology Middle-earth is a fantasy history of England and we're in sixth age (or something like that) of it. It becomes round with the third age.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I always loved Sir Terry's depictions of Ankh-Morpork. It was a crazy, deeply dysfunctional city, full of crazy, dysfunctional people, but he obviously loved it, and the reader ends up loving the city, as well. I think that's a fairly accurate way to look at the world around us. I believe that Tolkien's depictions of Mordor and the Shire, came from his own personal experiences in the trenches of WWI, so I'd argue that LOTR actually has some fairly significant reflection on the real world.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > I believe that Tolkien's depictions of Mordor and the Shire, came from his own personal experiences in the trenches of WWI Yes, and the general impinging of mechanisation and automation on rural life.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    From all accounts, Mordor seems to be a more pleasant place, than 1916 Somme.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  China Mieville’s “Perdido Street Station” is also worth reading. It’s set in, essentially, a _bad_ Ankh Morpork; like Ankh Morpork it’s a vast chaotic fantasy city (both are probably based on London) but New Crobuzon is _nightmarish_. (I’ve always been curious to what if any extent one influenced the other; Discworld is older, but Ankh Morpork gets fleshed out a lot later. Given how small a world UK sci-fi/fantasy is they’d almost certainly have been aware of each others’ work.)
  - dcminter 2y ago
    They seem very distinct to me - the mutual affinity with London seems much stronger than any cross literature bonds there. I do remember thinking Kraken was a little Gaimanesque though so that suggests at least a transitive link to Pratchett, so perhaps ...? btw your blog link in your profile doesn't work for me (we seem to have similar taste in literature so I thought I'd see what you've written)
ledauphin 2y ago
I'm equal parts amused and bewildered that this author with so many interesting thoughts has managed not to see what pretty much every other serious reader of Lord of the Rings has pointed out over decades - the entire story is about a weak and almost completely unknown set of people who were "chosen" only by the most inexplicable series of events anyone could imagine - who through no inherent power of their own manage to save the world by nothing more or less than the choice to be kind to a pitiful (though clearly treacherous) creature... and who then go right back home where they belong, dismissing any notion of chosenness beyond the ordinary sort where everyone is chosen to do what is good for their neighbors. the Hobbits pursued not greatness or destiny, but took the only path toward life available to them and then returned to let the rest of the world get on with living.
- vitus 2y ago
  > and who then go right back home where they belong, dismissing any notion of chosenness Well, except for Aragorn, who turns out to be the true king of Gondor.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    And Gandalf, who is not a man, but rather an angelic being or minor god (Maiar) sent to Middle Earth to oppose Sauron.
    - Swizec 2y ago
      > And Gandalf, who is not a man, but rather an angelic being (Maiar) sent to Middle Earth to sort out Sauron But that’s just what all wizards are and always have been. It’s the only way to be a wizard. It isn’t, like, a hidden fact or anything. Wizard is a race not a profession. Like elf or dwarf or hobbit.
      - hollerith 2y ago
        My point is to contradict the notion that >the entire story is about a weak and almost completely unknown set of people who were "chosen" only by the most inexplicable series of events anyone could imagine. I don't know what your point is.
bix6 2y ago
Please don’t let the few who have co-opted LOTR ruin it for the rest of us. It is a shame though, I wear my Palantir shirt very infrequently now. I’m currently on book 2 of Discworld and finding it ludicrously enjoyable. Its absurdity makes it feel like an antidote to many things. It feels more fantasy than “hardest of hard sci fi” to me though? And I think the space suit was broken so is it a good model for tech?
- InkCanon 2y ago
  One of the marvelous things about Discworld is that although it is absurd, it is one of those logical abstractions of technology I've seen. For example he describes in an incredibly lifelike way the clacks system (basically a kind of internet) and it's many properties - the network effects of internet infrastructure, it's used in commerce, the importance of information, the "hackers" who manipulate it, etc. Discworld is almost really hard scifi sometimes.
  - dcminter 2y ago
    There were real semaphore systems used for communication. Then he layered a lot of early telegraph stuff on top of that, popped some of his own invention into the mix and finally used the rest to parody internet and mobile phones. It's magnificent really. Speaking of sci fi - have you read Strata and Dark Side? They're pastiches of Asimov and Niven and so on, but he has some really neat ideas in there as well. I particularly like his notion of vacuum tube technology taken to its limits in Strata. If ever I needed proof of the non-existence of a benign all powerful god then the fact that someone who loved writing that kind of intricate and clever sophisticated humour would be so cruelly struck down with Alzheimers would suffice. "A life with footnotes", the biography of him by Rob Wilkins is excellent and very moving.
  - bloopernova 2y ago
    The Clacks, the Disorganiser, Dwarf-discovered Devices, and L-Space are all wonderful ideas. I'm a huge fan of the City Watch series, with Thud! being my absolute favourite. I envy those reading the series for the first time!
  - 2y ago
t-3 2y ago
> (except the Tiffany Aching ones) Those are actually some of the better ones among the later books though! If you're going to skip, skip the Moist von Lipwig books. They're substantially worse than the other books in the series, IMO. Not too big a fan of the Watch books after Night Watch either (Night Watch was definitely peak Vimes though!). > These are books you cannot really appreciate if you’re too young. Other than maybe missing one or two sex jokes, not really? > The only story revolving consequentially around gods is Small Gods, about a meme-stock god named GameStop, whose power crashes, and who ambitiously plans to pump himself back up to a new high. Did an LLM hallucinate or is this supposed to be a joke? The god's name is Om.
- DennisP 2y ago
  Also, Hogfather is another one. The Hogfather is a god, essentially Discworld's Santa Claus, and the whole story is about a plot to kill him off.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    What makes Hogfather interesting is that I might argue that he is not a god. At least for taken meaning of what a god is and acts like in/on Discworld. He is more so a force of nature like Death. Or a thing like tooth fairy. Such entities have a special existence on Discworld.
- import_awesome 2y ago
  Why not both? LLMs are hilarious when they aren't trying to be funny. They are pretty bad at jokes normally, but when LLMs hallucinate more than normal it has the right amount of absurdity to be funny.
- stevekemp 2y ago
  I think your comment just goes to show we all have different tastes - I love Moist, and his chain-smoking girlfriend. There's only one Discworld book I don't like, and it is unseen academicals - the football one - I struggled to finish that, and it's the only one I've read only a single time. Every other discworld book I've read numerous times over the past 20+ years.
InkCanon 2y ago
Seems like this "Chiang's law" would fail in Discworld, where both people and technology are strange.
DennisP 2y ago
Exactly. Here for example, the author's point seems to just be "don't be Sauron." > What I have a problem with is people trying to live forever as part of a Chosen One script which involves them trying to carve up all of the world into the dead empires of a dystopian Great Game world run according to a totalizing script. I'm confident Tolkien would agree. I also think any evaluation of LoTR should take into account Tolkien's background as a veteran of the trenches in WWI. In 2025 America, maybe that makes LoTR seem less relevant to our world. To someone living in Ukraine, it probably feels like a much closer fit.
- t-3 2y ago
  > To someone living in Ukraine, it probably feels like a much closer fit. You may be right, but is it a better fit? Is there any hope left when you face overwhelming hordes of evil orcs that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with, especially when there's no convenient ring to throw in a volcano? The black-and-white starkness of LotR is what makes it unfit for use as an analogy to the real world! There is very rarely ever a situation in which Good vs Evil is a correct or useful framing, even if it may be a comforting and inspiring story to tell ourselves.
  - DennisP 2y ago
    Aside from the lack of convenient ring I'd say that sometimes it's quite a useful framing. To avoid derailing into politics I'll use Nazi Germany as another example.
    - t-3 2y ago
      Funny you bring them up, I was going to use them as an example but didn't want to Godwin. The Nazis had a black-and-white ideological viewpoint and seemed to believe themselves to be heroes fighting to save their people from evil Jews and their brainwashed minions. Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now?
      - nathan_compton 2y ago
DarkNova6 2y ago
The inherent misconception of the author is about “seriousness”. His hypothesis is that taking Discworld serious is “good”, while taking LOTR as serious is “bad”. No, it’s really about taking either universe at face value, which is the problem. And with Discworld, its overt absurdity and humor forces you to think about it more deeply. LOTR doesn’t make an effort to explain what it is about. But knowing just a little about history and the author goes a long way.
travisgriggs 2y ago
“The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld.” Love that. I love LoTR too. I would never feel the need to pick one OR the other. It’s not about WHICH. Much better to love BOTH. AND is the correct operator to place between these two great sets of works. I think an under appreciated subset of Discworld is the Tiffany Aching series. If you really want to see Pratchett’s notions of “good morality” on display, these model it the best IMO.
- mulakosag 2y ago
  I don't think anybody is asking to choose one over the other. You can love both or either of them.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    TFA explicitly sets out to contrast the two: > The Lord of the Rings on the other hand — the more seriously you take Middle Earth, the dumber you get about Roundworld. > ... > The thought I began with, that The Lord of the Rings, whatever its merits as a fantasy tale, is brain-rot for the technological mind, is one that I find so obvious it feels barely worth stating. It's honestly hard to read the piece because of how clearly visible the author's sneer towards those who love Tolkien is.
- Ygg2 2y ago
  > The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld.” Depends where. Getting serious about Discworld would make you think thinking something makes it real. Which is a different set of crazy.
- Macha 2y ago
  > I think an under appreciated subset of Discworld is the Tiffany Aching series. Yeah, the author indicates he skipped them, probably because of the YA moniker, but honestly, _maybe_ Wee Free Men exempted, they're equally as mature as any other discworld books, with really the only YA thing about them being their underage protagonist.
the_af 2y ago
I advice everyone not to follow the TFA's author's example and do read Tiffany Aching series, which is one of the best. Yes, it's marketed as YA fiction, but disregard: it's exactly the same style and themes as the rest of Discworld, and as good or better. Also, the author does a disservice to Small Gods (also, oddly names the god Om as GamesStop, was that humor?), but this novel is one of the best ones in my opinion -- self-contained and both humorous and strangely moving.
- awinter-py 2y ago
  small gods is about how history could go either way + about developing critical thinking skills through reading agree that it's one of the best
  - Lyngbakr 2y ago
    Small Gods is my favourite so far. I think it's a great example of how Sir Terry could be silly and funny whilst making very interesting points about (usually) serious matters.
    - awinter-py 2y ago
      hoping not to spoil the book for anyone who hasn't read it, but a line that has stayed with me: 'you don't know what they mean / they know what they mean'
      - cancerhacker 2y ago
        “It takes a long time for a man like Vorbis to die” - is my favorite, but the book is chock full of brilliantly executed philosophy.
        awinter-py 2y ago
        at the end of the desert is judgment
        2y ago
breckenedge 2y ago
How does it compare to the Culture series? I’ve been reading that lately and enjoying it. Almost done though, so looking for the next series to pick up.
- swiftcoder 2y ago
  I think a lot of the author's points about Discworld hold true also for the Culture. Both works are steadfastly utopian, and build their conflicts around the intersection of that utopia with other, less utopian societies. Both have a strong suspicion of the Chosen One, and tend to rely on the actions of an ensemble of imperfect characters to drive forward the plot. Where I hesitate is that I'm not sure Discworld's humour will land with everyone. It's a very dry form of absurdist British humour - if you enjoy Douglas Adams, you will probably get along with Terry Pratchett.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    Great, I love Douglas Adams!
- shkkmo 2y ago
  The article ends with section called "Discworld Rules vs. Culture Rules" that you would probably find worth reading.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    :facepalm: thanks for pointing that out
- zabzonk 2y ago
  Well, they are both series, but the Discworld books have a bunch of recurring characters, and are basically comedic, whereas the Culture books do not, though Special Circumstances agent Diziet Sma pops up a few times. And the Culture books are much darker - the Culture is very morally ambiguous. Discworld is a very funny place - I'm sure you would enjoy it.
thih9 2y ago
> Now, for those of you who haven’t read the Discworld series, it is basically the anti-LOTR. This seems very wrong. Discworld heroes value the power of legends, LOTR heroes live for everyday life and sillines. While different on the outside, the essence of these books can be quite similar.
- Barrin92 2y ago
  Yes, it is very wrong. The Discworld series isn't that far from LOTR in spirit. It's just that Pratchett takes the modern secular humanist perspective and LOTR was a deeply Catholic work. Discworld is more meta, ironic, less overtly moral but does teach not so dissimilar lessons, which isn't particularly uncommon. The anti-LOTR has always been Dune, which Tolkien himself was aware of. It's one of the few stories he was uncharacteristically openly negative about.
egypturnash 2y ago
> The Auditors of Reality are particularly interesting. They are the Discworld edition of what I’ve called the Great Bureaucrat archetype elsewhere. Their ideology is something like the Wokism of Discworld, a deadening, stifling, faceless force of intersectional lifelessness. what Man this dude sure has a definition of “woke” that is completely alien to the roots of that term. > I read one Pratchett novel (Thief of Time I think) in college, but I’m glad I didn’t properly get into it till my mid-forties. These are books you cannot really appreciate if you’re too young. I read through the lot around 2017-19, during the first Trump admin, when I was in my early forties. what Dude they are comic fantasy, yes Pratchett has Things to Say about the world in them, more and more as the series goes on, but I picked up Equal Rites soon after it came out when I was eighteen and the series was a constant delight through my college years and beyond. Yes there are things in Discworld that will zoom right by a kid and only land when you come back to it as an adult. That’s part of why they’re good books. There’s things like that in Lloyd Alexander’s Prydain Cycle (Book of Three, Black Cauldron, etc) that hit me like a ton of bricks when I pick up those little books forty years after I first read them as a kid and completely missed those parts. Stories can speak to multiple ages on multiple levels.
- jfengel 2y ago
  That is how "woke" is used now. Any resemblance to the original use is completely lost. It is merely "things I don't like". And it has become a convenient shibboleth: anyone using the word that way has nothing of value to say to me on any topic.
  - tacitusarc 2y ago
    Perhaps ironically, that’s not actually what shibboleth means.
    - jfengel 2y ago
      "A common or longstanding belief, custom, or catchphrase associated with a particular group, especially one with little current meaning or truth." (Wiktionary). If you mean to restrict it to the Biblical usage of pronunciation, it generalized past that centuries ago.
anastasiapenova 2y ago
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Vsolar 2y ago
I always found Pratchett's novels to be amazing sources of humor and creativity. I'm glad I'm not alone on that one.
- patrickmay 2y ago
  Terry Pratchett hasn’t been an escapist writer for quite some time. He’ll amuse you, sure, but he won’t tell you that things are great just the way they are or that they’re hopeless and there’s nothing you can do. He’ll tell you that you — yes, you — should make them better. And then he’ll do something even more radical. He’ll make you think you can. -- randombrethren, Tumblr
- roter 2y ago
  One of his (Sir Terry) sources for inspiration was Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable [0]. Indeed he wrote a foreword for one of them. [0] Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable
rdtsc 2y ago
> And it only gets sillier from there. That’s exactly where it fails for me: it is too cute, like a longer than necessary joke. It’s just not my cup of tea to read and think “oh yeah, I see they inverted the thing, very cute, they even have the elephants and the turtles”. It’s ok but maybe for a short essay or a comic book only.
- dcminter 2y ago
  This sounds like you might have read only the early novels which, yes, were mainly silly. Try Night Watch perhaps? There's a bit of background silliness - residual from all the world building that's gone on before - but to me it's one of his most thoughtful novels. It's perfectly ok for them not to be your cuppa of course; my Mum and I loved them but my Dad never got into them despite trying quite a few times. Funny because generally our tastes intersected quite thoroughly.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    Night watch is probably my favourite, but for me Jingo is the one with the most depth.
    - stevekemp 2y ago
      I can see why you'd choose it, but if picking a standalone "Small Gods" is the one I'd always choose. (To be honest I'm lying, the standalone book I prefer myself is Pyramids, but the one I'd recommend to others is Small Gods.)
      - travisgriggs 2y ago
        Thief of Time is my fav of the standalones. Always wish there had been more of that. If you like Death, Hogfather is my first recommendation.
      - dcminter 2y ago
        "The trouble with you, Ibid, is that you think you're the biggest bloody authority on everything" :D So many good gags in that one. I love the cinematic flashback scenes while Pteppic is falling off the wall. Plus it's where the "Pterry" nickname comes from of course.
cancerhacker 2y ago
I love discworld and prosetyilize its virtues when and where I can, but two thoughts about this: 1 - why not both? 2 - via MST3K “If you're wondering how he eats & breathes, And other science facts...(la! la! la!) Then repeat to yourself its just a show, I should really just relax...”
karaterobot 2y ago
> I won’t get into whether Discworld is better or worse as a fictional universe than Middle Earth. "I won't get into which book is better, today I am only evaluating these books according to a set of rules I am making up, to see which succeeds at something neither author set out to achieve, and which most readers don't know or care about, and which is ultimately just an analogy for something else. Intrigued? Read on!"
- tigerlily 2y ago
  > at something neither author set out to achieve And that would give me cause to read no further. Edit: for reasons expressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43306581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43306581
ben_ 2y ago
> Their ideology is something like the Wokism of Discworld, a deadening, stifling, faceless force of intersectional lifelessness. What? Do words even have meaning anymore? How is that anything to do with being "woke"?
- notahacker 2y ago
  I think Pratchett probably revolved in his grave at the idea that the lifelessness of the Auditors came from lack of contempt towards minorities...
joeconway 2y ago
“As an extended allegory for society and technology it absolutely sucks and is also ludicrously wrong-headed” > As for any inner meaning or ‘message’, it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical Tolkien himself in the foreword to fellowship This person needs to cool it with the pseudo intellectualism and let people enjoy things
Pfhortune 2y ago
The idea of crypto as a force for plurality is baffling. Crypto is just as controlled by the “sourcerers” of round world as state controlled fiat currency. Distributed ledgers make no difference here. It’s still just “chosen ones” projecting their power. And the jab at “wokism” is pretty ironic, as the right has been making a very overt push for rendering culture into a grey goo, by quashing diversity.
Woodsandra 2y ago
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travisgriggs 2y ago
As I scroll through the various discworld commentaries here, one of the things I haven't seen surface much yet is Pratchett as a dialog artist. My dad and I were both discussing just the other day how we’re honestly happy just picking up any Discworld book, opening it anywhere, and having a listen on what the characters are saying to each other at the moment. I’m not sure what others have created dialogue like that. Maybe Michael Sullivan in his Theft of Swords series.
- i_don_t_know 2y ago
  The dialogs and the interaction between characters are also driving the story in a natural way. It’s like those screwball comedies from the 30s (His Girl Friday etc). Pratchett had a good ear for how people talk, and he managed to put it on page. There are no lengthy stilted lectures (characters explaining stuff to other characters) as in some other books by other authors, and only few (and usually short) descriptions of what happens when and then this and then that and then something else.
- ggm 2y ago
  How he sets up "Minge drinking" is a very good example.
  - swyx 2y ago
    which book is that? what about it?
    - ggm 2y ago
      "Thud" The women coppers go out for a drink. Fred and Nobbs observe and make comment. Pratchett knew he wanted the pun(e) and I think worked out how to get it into dialogue
- dcminter 2y ago
  Stephen Briggs, who adapted several of the works for the stage, said the dialogue was an absolute gift for that. Think of how the "Dread Portal" scene in Guards Guards! would play out on stage and one sees exactly what he means.
Animats 2y ago
The author alludes to a general problem with popular culture - the cult of the Chosen One. Pixar has some in-house rules for stories. One of them is: Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___ That sums up a Chosen One story. Chosen One protagonists do not work their way up. They are special snowflakes. Star Wars is an extreme case of Chosen One popular culture. So is the Marvel Overextended Universe. (Note that Star Trek is not. Starfleet people start at the bottom and work up.) The top 8 highest grossing films of all time, unadjusted for inflation, [1] are all Chosen One movies. Overexposure to Chosen One stories predisposes people to look for a Strong Leader, one who is somehow special. This seems to be a problem. Historically, the United States didn't work that way, having rebelled against a European monarchy which did. But I digress. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films
- Detrytus 2y ago
  I fail to see how "Titanic" is a Chosen One story...
- ViktorRay 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces The stories you are talking about, also known as The Monomyth, have been part of every recorded culture and civilization. It seems that the Chosen One stuff is not a result of stories. It is a fundamental part of our species and that is reflected in our most popular stories. From ancient times all the way to today.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    Allegedly. The monomyth has to be stretched very thin to fit over some of the greatest stories told by humans to each other. Take the Iliad. Where's the monomyth? Achilles is an asshole, he gets into a fight with his boss, causes his bestie to get killed and then gets killed himself. There's a wooden horse. End of story. No monomyth there, guv'nor. Nor in the Odyssey. Smart guy wins the Trojan war with impossile stratagem. He pisses off the God of the Sea and takes 10 years to reach home, losing all his companions along the way. A little massacre to clear the air and they live happily ever after. End of story. No monomyth. I could go on. But, you know, that's the Iliad and the Odyssey. Should be enough.
galacticaactual 2y ago
An utterly uncalled for hit piece on a much beloved piece of work (LOTR).
- ggm 2y ago
  It's not the first and it won't be the last. Remember the inklings used to groan when he wanted to read another chapter. So even in drafting his friends were agin him. Lewis wanted beer and belches. Strange how his own sermonising is so boring.
satisfice 2y ago
I can't take Discworld seriously. It doesn't even take itself seriously. I read the first book, which was full of random deus doing ex machina all over the place, and tapped out.
- qznc 2y ago
  The first rule of Discworld fandom: Don't start with the first book. Pratchett himself said so and that is mentioned in the article.
- dcminter 2y ago
  Perhaps you should try one of his other 60 or so books some time? Seems a bit narrow minded otherwise.
- ggm 2y ago
  It's OK not to like things and it's OK to change your mind. I didn't like discworld and I changed my mind. It's also OK not to read things. I've never finished Ulysses or seen the point of Finnigans wake or Buddenbrooks or heaps of other great works. I love Mansfield Park. My partner hates it. Even in Austen you can pick and chose which bit of ivory to pick up.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Make 2025 the year of not reading At Swim-Two-Birds !!
    - ggm 2y ago
      I did read it, many years ago but I may decide not to re read it. Unlike wake, it's usefully short Regrettably it's not about a bicycle or de selby
      - defrost 2y ago
        Pffft, readers, mar ná beidh ár leithéidí arís ann, who's got that kind of time anymore? (Available on StageFlix: https://irishplayography.com/play?playid=31428 https://irishplayography.com/play?playid=31428 )
popalchemist 2y ago
Reading LOTR as about technology is like reading Alice in Wonderland as about tea time ettiquette. For fuck's sake. LOTR makes its theme and conceits explicit - it is about the appeal of power to the ego. Industrialization is an expression of that will to power, and its ability to magnify man's already-present distorted relationship with nature. That industry relies on technology does not make technology the central topic or even the target of critique. Bone-headed take.
- golergka 2y ago
  Reading is a creative process. You should not be bound by author's intention or by conventional knowledge about the material. If you approach it with a new perspective and get new ideas out of it, or even if it just means you have a good time, then it's worth it. In fact, Alice in Wonderland relationship to ettiquette, both at a tea table and in royal court, is a curious theme.
  - popalchemist 2y ago
    While you can read anything as anything, not all readings are equally meritorious. Making an unmeritorious reading into the basis of a critique is a form of straw man.
taocoyote 2y ago
The stories in Discworld books are character driven. LOTR is much more plot driven. I feel like this is an apples and oranges comparison. It also feels a bit like the false dichotomy arguments from my teenage years, where you could like either Star Trek or Star Wars, but not both.
rkagerer 2y ago
Pratchett's series of books are the only ones I've reread more than half a dozen times, in some cases. Love his work.
YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
>> I have a rule-of-thumb: The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld. Oh come off it. I've read all the Discworld novels. I've also read every other book that Terry Pratchett ever wrote [1]. All, that is, except for one that I've left for... later [2]. If Pratchett were still with us and heard anyone making such pompous statements about Discworld he'd slap the culprit in the face [3]. See, the thing to understand about Terry Pratchett is that he was quintessentially British, and by that I mean the good British [4]. As such his greatest fear was that someone might take what he wrote seriously and try to follow it like some kind of life advice. Remember what he quipped when he was knighted for "services to literature": "I suspect the 'services to literature' consisted of refraining from trying to write any" And that, as they say, is that. ______________ [1] Yes, even "Where's my Cow?". [2] Problem is, I don't remember which one so I'll have to read them all again to be sure. Hey, win-win. [3] Gently. He was a gentle man. [4] Think Lord Byron, not Lord Elgin. But without all the drinking and womanising, just the big heart.
- qqqult 2y ago
  4 foot notes? This guy Pratchetts.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    My notes aren't that tall :P (That was so good this Sunday morning. Thanks :D)
    - MezzoDelCammin 2y ago
      they are "Pratchett" footnotes though. My introduction to Discworld happened when I bought a few second hand paperbacks on Portobello for under a pound in order to have something to read in the bus back from London. Later (well and truly addicted) I wenth through a few more when I was commuting regularly by train. But about a half of the Discworld novels I read as ebooks either on a Kindle, or a Kobo. It has always been "frustrating" to have to click through the footnote links in Pratchetts ebooks. In a paper book (just like in Your comment) the footnotes really complete the train of thought. Often it's the whole pun of a joke. You know it's there. You damn well know it's worth it. On paper, all it takes is a glance down. For me, the "Pratchett footnote" is therefore characterized as anything where "click to see a footnote" somehow breaks that payoff spell a bit.
samirillian 2y ago
1) inconsistent argument: Frodo is just as mediocre as Rincewind. 2) I don’t respect the bald claim that all chosen ones are bad, or the implicit claim that we can somehow avoid them. Universals always have exceptions. If we’re being “real” here about our agential change, we must admit that species evolve by natural selection we might say genetic chosen ones. And anyway I do think there are some special people so sue me. 3) consider the names of Peter Thiel’s companies: palantir, mithril. Thiel, I’m sure ironically, named his companies after objects possessing exactly that moral ambiguity that the author claims does not exist in Tolkien’s world. Thiel is telegraphing it straight to you via Tolkien: do not trust me, I will use these objects for my own gain. 4) Discworld can afford to be light and playful because it was written in easy times. In one preface, Tolkien wrote that all the world’s great powers would obviously have tried to turn the ring into a weapon if it really existed.
ggm 2y ago
Tolkien himself said to beware allegorical readings. He said had he sought allegory, by book III the rings of power would have been seized for good or ill, and the Hobbits discarded as irrelevant or enslaved. Likewise the palentir (!) Tolkien also faced extensive criticism from Christians for a non catholic fictive world, something he easily disregarded as trite. He was a loyal devout catholic in every respect. His biography by Humphrey Carpenter goes into all this. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography, 1977
protocolture 2y ago
I quite like the Most Von Lipwig stuff. But honestly KJ Parkers novels are better again.
hummingn3rd 2y ago
I thought this was going to be about all the physics rules in the discwolrd, like how light travels, the rule of the one chance in a million, or that cats can see the eight color or Death etc. I'd love to see a list of all of them, I haven't noticed any inconsistencies so far but I haven't read that many novels yet.
seivan 2y ago
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wolvesechoes 2y ago
I love Discworld, both its universum and characters like Death and Vimes, yet author first proves that they lack cognitive abilities to understand and position Tolkien's work, then gives hints that their understanding of Roundworld is as superficial as is the character of Discworld, which is no less a work of escapism as is Middle-Earth. People tend to mistake sarcasm and satire with realistic and valuable insight. If, for example, you want to understand something about war in our Roundworld, do not read LotR or Jingo. Read Thucidydes.
yapyap 2y ago
How’s about not looking to fantasy books for inspiration on how real world socities should interact with technology? You’re basically basing your whole technology worldview off a fantasy world created by a single person
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
I can't get past the second paragraph, where he introduces "Chiang's Law." I click through for the definition: > This law can be stated compactly as: science fiction is about strange rules, while fantasy is about special people. Anyone who believes that has not read much of either. And the writer admits this immediately: > Whether the story is about spaceships or dragons is irrelevant. I have a hard time listening to someone who use established terminology to refer to some completely orthogonal concept, in a context guaranteed to cause confusion, for no reason except to snipe at a genre they don't like, for reasons they know are neither fundamental to nor unique to that genre.
elendee 2y ago
Tolkien was simply articulating the fact that the distance between non-existence and existence is far greater than the distance between existence and technologically-enhanced-existence can ever be.

277 points by jger15 2y ago

i've had good success getting ChatGPT to generate new short stories set in the diskworld universe and written in prachett's style. even the jokes were funny.

megadata 2y ago

There are many ways of rightly praising Discword without sucker punching LOTR.

dcminter 2y ago

I mean addressing the initial proposition - of course a work of satire/parody of the real world is going to be a better basis for thinking about the real world than a work of escapism! The rest of it, I think, won't persuade anyone to read Discworld novels who's resisted them so far. Those who have and love them will find it a pleasant enough survey. Oh and I personally think that Equal Rites is the best entry point to the series rather than Sourcery. But then I was reading them in publishing order anyway and eagerly waiting for each new one to come out. Damn I miss being able to look forward to a new Pratchett novel; he was a Wodehouse for my generation.

teddyh 2y ago
“Equal Rites” is the first in the “witches” series, but is, IIUC, considered a very weak entry. The rest of the witches series don’t really acknowledge the events in it, and they start off the next book with a blank slate, not assuming that you have read the first one. If you really just want to read the witches series, I’d suggest that you instead start with the second book, “Wyrd Sisters”.
- dcminter 2y ago
  His very last book has Esk in it. I understand the view, I just don't agree. It has lots of nice subtle jokes in it and was the first to have a bit more depth to the story rather than being a slightly scattered and episodic parody of thr fantasy genre. But then I like Dark Side and Strata a lot too. Edit to add: incidentally there are a lot of minor throwaway jokes throughout the series that require you to have read the preceding books to get them. That in itself is IMO enough reason to aim to read them in publication order. But you do you, he was very prolific, I can see why someone coming in after the fact might choose not to tackle the whole lot from beginning to end.
- nsbk 2y ago
  What entry point would you recommend to a total newcomer to the series?
  - zabzonk 2y ago
    "Lords & Ladies", and then expand out in both/all directions. Horrible elves, Granny at her best (and Nanny), Magrat the killer queen, Morris dancing, stupid wizzards and lots of other stuff - what's not to like? Probably just because it's my fave. But you can read them and enjoy in any order.
    - nsbk 2y ago
      That sounds like a lot of fun indeed! Thanks for the advice
    - cancerhacker 2y ago
      The only reason I disagree is that L&L jumps in with some very well established characters that had been built up earlier. But I do love his (historically accurate by lore?) description of elves. He put a lot of research into re-establishing the myths and lore of his little corner of the world. (Along those lines I would also recommend Susanna Clarke’s “Jonathan Strange & Mr Norell” which builds its own parallel history set in the early 1800s Britain, with Fairies taking the same role as elves in discworld.
      - rsynnott 2y ago
        > But I do love his (historically accurate by lore?) description of elves. Yeah, more or less. The “elves/fairies are nice, or at least _good_” thing is a fairly modern creation (owing a lot to Tolkien, really).
      - dcminter 2y ago
        I think Susannah Clarke is the only living author I can think of who would inspire the same enthusiasm from me upon news of a new book from them. Alas, she is not quite as prolific as PTerry :) Mustn't grumble though, it's not like Jonathan Strange was a pamphlet!
lc9er 2y ago
Wodehouse is a great comparison. I typically suggest people start with “Guards! Guards!”, but the Witches or Night Watch books are both great starting points - Granny Weatherwax and Sam Vimes are probably the most explored characters, followed by Death, Tiffany, and Moist. If you like “Guards! Guards!” or “Equal Rites”, then go back and start from the beginning. The first two novels are fun, but sound like Pratchett was channeling Monty Python and Douglas Adams. It took a few books before his own voice really shined through.
asjir 2y ago
Why not start with Colour of Magic? For context, I started with it, then Light Fantastic and I'm finishing Sourcery now.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  Many of the cultural references are to other fantasy books and comics from the 1980s, so they're increasingly lost on current readers. I generally recommend starting with Wyrd Sisters, since many people are familiar with Macbeth.
- dcminter 2y ago
  I did too (a long time ago when I was 13). But I think there was a change in tone with and continuing after Equal Rites, in that the characters and story were a bit more thorough rather than being, essentially, a sketch-show vehicle for parody and quips. Besides, it introduces Granny Weatherwax, who is IMO one of his two greatest creations (the other being Vimes of course). Edit: Oh, by the way, if you're just now working your way through them then (a) I envy you and (b) I recommend reading the Annotated Pratchett File for each book - after you finish each of course: https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    > I recommend reading the Annotated Pratchett File for each book - after you finish each of course: https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ Sadly, it’s pretty sparse or non-existent for the later books, but the TVTropes pages on them are usually very good, and cover a lot of the same ground.
  - asjir 2y ago
    Ahh, I see, thank you (and other commenters) I was a bit surprised by the change in tone in a way I probably wouldn't've been if I'd read chronologically.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  You certainly _can_, but they’re more or less straight-up parody fantasy, and _very_ different to the rest of the series.
tsumnia 2y ago
I followed the prescribed unofficial Reading Order graphic when I started the series (only 10ish books in), and I've jumped around between all the different protagonists. Color of Magic, Mort, Guards Guards, and the Equal Rites do well enough to show you what the Disc is all about, the absurdity of normalcy, and some of the crazy antics people get into. I think it may be more a matter of what "type" of fiction are you looking for - a constantly terrified Rincewind in a world of magic, a new to the job Mort where no one believes HE is Death, a tired Sam Vimes trying to understand a world that is changing faster than he can keep up, or the witches the reject all the social rules of the land. Really the only one I wouldn't recommend first is Small Gods, but mostly because its very self contained to the Klatchian region while the others are on another continent.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > I wouldn't recommend first is Small Gods, but mostly because its very self contained to the Klatchian region while the others are on another continent. For the same reason, "Small Gods" is actually a great introduction to the series. I think it's really my favorite book in the series.
rsynnott 2y ago
I’d agree on Equal Rites; Sourcery is a _weird_ Discworld book, though I think it’s the one that most blatantly hits the theme, which shows up more subtly elsewhere, that “great men (TM)” are _a bad thing_.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Sourcery is a _weird_ Discworld book He must have liked it; he rewrote it later as Good Omens.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    Oh, yeah, I’m not saying it’s bad, but it’s… kind of what TVTropes calls Early Installment Weirdness; it feels very different to what comes later.
  - dcminter 2y ago
    Could you explain? I don't see much similarity between them.
    - Detrytus 2y ago
      In both protagonist is a super powerful boy, unintentionally bringing the world on the brink of Armageddon?
      - dcminter 2y ago
        Well, I guess...? Tonally they feel completely different and Good Omens draws a lot of its DNA from The Omen (and, wonderfully, Richmal Crompton) whereas I don't see any of that in Sourcery. I find it hard to see Good Omens as a do-over of Sourcery, but I guess they do have something in common.
        trowawee 2y ago
        Probably worth noting that Pratchett wrote most of the "Adam and the gang" sections of Good Omens, while Gaiman was responsible for the riders and the more "mythological" parts. So I do see a pretty clear throughline from Sourcery to the Pratchett parts of Good Omens.

crowselect 2y ago

As someone who deeply loves LOTR - if you try to apply the rules of LOTR to this world, you will make this world worse. This is true. Inheritance and monarchy does not make for a good government, and we know this. But LOTR is about vibes not facts. Friendship, loyalty, hope, doing the right thing with what power you have, appreciating what is good and green and gentle in the world, etc. > the more seriously you take Middle Earth, the dumber you get about Roundworld The more seriously you take the rules of LOTR, yes. But you can take LOTR seriously without taking the rules seriously - by taking the vibes seriously.

fc417fc802 2y ago
> Inheritance and monarchy does not make for a good government, and we know this. Monarchy makes for some of both the best and worst governments on record. The problem isn't that you can't get good results, but rather the extreme variance.
- crowselect 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
    Or to a slave in a Republic (whether that's the Confederacy, Rome or Athens).
    - crowselect 2y ago
      What does that have to do with monarchy?
      - Ichthypresbyter 2y ago
        The same thing that serfdom has to do with monarchy. In other words, nothing.

IsTom 2y ago

> Roundworld isn’t even modeled in the Middle Earth cosmology Middle-earth is a fantasy history of England and we're in sixth age (or something like that) of it. It becomes round with the third age.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I always loved Sir Terry's depictions of Ankh-Morpork. It was a crazy, deeply dysfunctional city, full of crazy, dysfunctional people, but he obviously loved it, and the reader ends up loving the city, as well. I think that's a fairly accurate way to look at the world around us. I believe that Tolkien's depictions of Mordor and the Shire, came from his own personal experiences in the trenches of WWI, so I'd argue that LOTR actually has some fairly significant reflection on the real world.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> I believe that Tolkien's depictions of Mordor and the Shire, came from his own personal experiences in the trenches of WWI Yes, and the general impinging of mechanisation and automation on rural life.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  From all accounts, Mordor seems to be a more pleasant place, than 1916 Somme.
rsynnott 2y ago
China Mieville’s “Perdido Street Station” is also worth reading. It’s set in, essentially, a _bad_ Ankh Morpork; like Ankh Morpork it’s a vast chaotic fantasy city (both are probably based on London) but New Crobuzon is _nightmarish_. (I’ve always been curious to what if any extent one influenced the other; Discworld is older, but Ankh Morpork gets fleshed out a lot later. Given how small a world UK sci-fi/fantasy is they’d almost certainly have been aware of each others’ work.)
- dcminter 2y ago
  They seem very distinct to me - the mutual affinity with London seems much stronger than any cross literature bonds there. I do remember thinking Kraken was a little Gaimanesque though so that suggests at least a transitive link to Pratchett, so perhaps ...? btw your blog link in your profile doesn't work for me (we seem to have similar taste in literature so I thought I'd see what you've written)

ledauphin 2y ago

I'm equal parts amused and bewildered that this author with so many interesting thoughts has managed not to see what pretty much every other serious reader of Lord of the Rings has pointed out over decades - the entire story is about a weak and almost completely unknown set of people who were "chosen" only by the most inexplicable series of events anyone could imagine - who through no inherent power of their own manage to save the world by nothing more or less than the choice to be kind to a pitiful (though clearly treacherous) creature... and who then go right back home where they belong, dismissing any notion of chosenness beyond the ordinary sort where everyone is chosen to do what is good for their neighbors. the Hobbits pursued not greatness or destiny, but took the only path toward life available to them and then returned to let the rest of the world get on with living.

vitus 2y ago
> and who then go right back home where they belong, dismissing any notion of chosenness Well, except for Aragorn, who turns out to be the true king of Gondor.
- hollerith 2y ago
  And Gandalf, who is not a man, but rather an angelic being or minor god (Maiar) sent to Middle Earth to oppose Sauron.
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > And Gandalf, who is not a man, but rather an angelic being (Maiar) sent to Middle Earth to sort out Sauron But that’s just what all wizards are and always have been. It’s the only way to be a wizard. It isn’t, like, a hidden fact or anything. Wizard is a race not a profession. Like elf or dwarf or hobbit.
    - hollerith 2y ago
      My point is to contradict the notion that >the entire story is about a weak and almost completely unknown set of people who were "chosen" only by the most inexplicable series of events anyone could imagine. I don't know what your point is.

bix6 2y ago

Please don’t let the few who have co-opted LOTR ruin it for the rest of us. It is a shame though, I wear my Palantir shirt very infrequently now. I’m currently on book 2 of Discworld and finding it ludicrously enjoyable. Its absurdity makes it feel like an antidote to many things. It feels more fantasy than “hardest of hard sci fi” to me though? And I think the space suit was broken so is it a good model for tech?

InkCanon 2y ago
One of the marvelous things about Discworld is that although it is absurd, it is one of those logical abstractions of technology I've seen. For example he describes in an incredibly lifelike way the clacks system (basically a kind of internet) and it's many properties - the network effects of internet infrastructure, it's used in commerce, the importance of information, the "hackers" who manipulate it, etc. Discworld is almost really hard scifi sometimes.
- dcminter 2y ago
  There were real semaphore systems used for communication. Then he layered a lot of early telegraph stuff on top of that, popped some of his own invention into the mix and finally used the rest to parody internet and mobile phones. It's magnificent really. Speaking of sci fi - have you read Strata and Dark Side? They're pastiches of Asimov and Niven and so on, but he has some really neat ideas in there as well. I particularly like his notion of vacuum tube technology taken to its limits in Strata. If ever I needed proof of the non-existence of a benign all powerful god then the fact that someone who loved writing that kind of intricate and clever sophisticated humour would be so cruelly struck down with Alzheimers would suffice. "A life with footnotes", the biography of him by Rob Wilkins is excellent and very moving.
- bloopernova 2y ago
  The Clacks, the Disorganiser, Dwarf-discovered Devices, and L-Space are all wonderful ideas. I'm a huge fan of the City Watch series, with Thud! being my absolute favourite. I envy those reading the series for the first time!
- 2y ago

t-3 2y ago

> (except the Tiffany Aching ones) Those are actually some of the better ones among the later books though! If you're going to skip, skip the Moist von Lipwig books. They're substantially worse than the other books in the series, IMO. Not too big a fan of the Watch books after Night Watch either (Night Watch was definitely peak Vimes though!). > These are books you cannot really appreciate if you’re too young. Other than maybe missing one or two sex jokes, not really? > The only story revolving consequentially around gods is Small Gods, about a meme-stock god named GameStop, whose power crashes, and who ambitiously plans to pump himself back up to a new high. Did an LLM hallucinate or is this supposed to be a joke? The god's name is Om.

DennisP 2y ago
Also, Hogfather is another one. The Hogfather is a god, essentially Discworld's Santa Claus, and the whole story is about a plot to kill him off.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  What makes Hogfather interesting is that I might argue that he is not a god. At least for taken meaning of what a god is and acts like in/on Discworld. He is more so a force of nature like Death. Or a thing like tooth fairy. Such entities have a special existence on Discworld.
import_awesome 2y ago
Why not both? LLMs are hilarious when they aren't trying to be funny. They are pretty bad at jokes normally, but when LLMs hallucinate more than normal it has the right amount of absurdity to be funny.
stevekemp 2y ago
I think your comment just goes to show we all have different tastes - I love Moist, and his chain-smoking girlfriend. There's only one Discworld book I don't like, and it is unseen academicals - the football one - I struggled to finish that, and it's the only one I've read only a single time. Every other discworld book I've read numerous times over the past 20+ years.

InkCanon 2y ago

Seems like this "Chiang's law" would fail in Discworld, where both people and technology are strange.

DennisP 2y ago

Exactly. Here for example, the author's point seems to just be "don't be Sauron." > What I have a problem with is people trying to live forever as part of a Chosen One script which involves them trying to carve up all of the world into the dead empires of a dystopian Great Game world run according to a totalizing script. I'm confident Tolkien would agree. I also think any evaluation of LoTR should take into account Tolkien's background as a veteran of the trenches in WWI. In 2025 America, maybe that makes LoTR seem less relevant to our world. To someone living in Ukraine, it probably feels like a much closer fit.

t-3 2y ago
> To someone living in Ukraine, it probably feels like a much closer fit. You may be right, but is it a better fit? Is there any hope left when you face overwhelming hordes of evil orcs that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with, especially when there's no convenient ring to throw in a volcano? The black-and-white starkness of LotR is what makes it unfit for use as an analogy to the real world! There is very rarely ever a situation in which Good vs Evil is a correct or useful framing, even if it may be a comforting and inspiring story to tell ourselves.
- DennisP 2y ago
  Aside from the lack of convenient ring I'd say that sometimes it's quite a useful framing. To avoid derailing into politics I'll use Nazi Germany as another example.
  - t-3 2y ago
    Funny you bring them up, I was going to use them as an example but didn't want to Godwin. The Nazis had a black-and-white ideological viewpoint and seemed to believe themselves to be heroes fighting to save their people from evil Jews and their brainwashed minions. Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now?
    - nathan_compton 2y ago

DarkNova6 2y ago

The inherent misconception of the author is about “seriousness”. His hypothesis is that taking Discworld serious is “good”, while taking LOTR as serious is “bad”. No, it’s really about taking either universe at face value, which is the problem. And with Discworld, its overt absurdity and humor forces you to think about it more deeply. LOTR doesn’t make an effort to explain what it is about. But knowing just a little about history and the author goes a long way.

travisgriggs 2y ago

“The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld.” Love that. I love LoTR too. I would never feel the need to pick one OR the other. It’s not about WHICH. Much better to love BOTH. AND is the correct operator to place between these two great sets of works. I think an under appreciated subset of Discworld is the Tiffany Aching series. If you really want to see Pratchett’s notions of “good morality” on display, these model it the best IMO.

mulakosag 2y ago
I don't think anybody is asking to choose one over the other. You can love both or either of them.
- lolinder 2y ago
  TFA explicitly sets out to contrast the two: > The Lord of the Rings on the other hand — the more seriously you take Middle Earth, the dumber you get about Roundworld. > ... > The thought I began with, that The Lord of the Rings, whatever its merits as a fantasy tale, is brain-rot for the technological mind, is one that I find so obvious it feels barely worth stating. It's honestly hard to read the piece because of how clearly visible the author's sneer towards those who love Tolkien is.
Ygg2 2y ago
> The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld.” Depends where. Getting serious about Discworld would make you think thinking something makes it real. Which is a different set of crazy.
Macha 2y ago
> I think an under appreciated subset of Discworld is the Tiffany Aching series. Yeah, the author indicates he skipped them, probably because of the YA moniker, but honestly, _maybe_ Wee Free Men exempted, they're equally as mature as any other discworld books, with really the only YA thing about them being their underage protagonist.

the_af 2y ago

I advice everyone not to follow the TFA's author's example and do read Tiffany Aching series, which is one of the best. Yes, it's marketed as YA fiction, but disregard: it's exactly the same style and themes as the rest of Discworld, and as good or better. Also, the author does a disservice to Small Gods (also, oddly names the god Om as GamesStop, was that humor?), but this novel is one of the best ones in my opinion -- self-contained and both humorous and strangely moving.

awinter-py 2y ago
small gods is about how history could go either way + about developing critical thinking skills through reading agree that it's one of the best
- Lyngbakr 2y ago
  Small Gods is my favourite so far. I think it's a great example of how Sir Terry could be silly and funny whilst making very interesting points about (usually) serious matters.
  - awinter-py 2y ago
    hoping not to spoil the book for anyone who hasn't read it, but a line that has stayed with me: 'you don't know what they mean / they know what they mean'
    - cancerhacker 2y ago
      “It takes a long time for a man like Vorbis to die” - is my favorite, but the book is chock full of brilliantly executed philosophy.
      - awinter-py 2y ago
        at the end of the desert is judgment
      - 2y ago

breckenedge 2y ago

How does it compare to the Culture series? I’ve been reading that lately and enjoying it. Almost done though, so looking for the next series to pick up.

swiftcoder 2y ago
I think a lot of the author's points about Discworld hold true also for the Culture. Both works are steadfastly utopian, and build their conflicts around the intersection of that utopia with other, less utopian societies. Both have a strong suspicion of the Chosen One, and tend to rely on the actions of an ensemble of imperfect characters to drive forward the plot. Where I hesitate is that I'm not sure Discworld's humour will land with everyone. It's a very dry form of absurdist British humour - if you enjoy Douglas Adams, you will probably get along with Terry Pratchett.
- breckenedge 2y ago
  Great, I love Douglas Adams!
shkkmo 2y ago
The article ends with section called "Discworld Rules vs. Culture Rules" that you would probably find worth reading.
- breckenedge 2y ago
  :facepalm: thanks for pointing that out
zabzonk 2y ago
Well, they are both series, but the Discworld books have a bunch of recurring characters, and are basically comedic, whereas the Culture books do not, though Special Circumstances agent Diziet Sma pops up a few times. And the Culture books are much darker - the Culture is very morally ambiguous. Discworld is a very funny place - I'm sure you would enjoy it.

thih9 2y ago

> Now, for those of you who haven’t read the Discworld series, it is basically the anti-LOTR. This seems very wrong. Discworld heroes value the power of legends, LOTR heroes live for everyday life and sillines. While different on the outside, the essence of these books can be quite similar.

Barrin92 2y ago
Yes, it is very wrong. The Discworld series isn't that far from LOTR in spirit. It's just that Pratchett takes the modern secular humanist perspective and LOTR was a deeply Catholic work. Discworld is more meta, ironic, less overtly moral but does teach not so dissimilar lessons, which isn't particularly uncommon. The anti-LOTR has always been Dune, which Tolkien himself was aware of. It's one of the few stories he was uncharacteristically openly negative about.

egypturnash 2y ago

> The Auditors of Reality are particularly interesting. They are the Discworld edition of what I’ve called the Great Bureaucrat archetype elsewhere. Their ideology is something like the Wokism of Discworld, a deadening, stifling, faceless force of intersectional lifelessness. what Man this dude sure has a definition of “woke” that is completely alien to the roots of that term. > I read one Pratchett novel (Thief of Time I think) in college, but I’m glad I didn’t properly get into it till my mid-forties. These are books you cannot really appreciate if you’re too young. I read through the lot around 2017-19, during the first Trump admin, when I was in my early forties. what Dude they are comic fantasy, yes Pratchett has Things to Say about the world in them, more and more as the series goes on, but I picked up Equal Rites soon after it came out when I was eighteen and the series was a constant delight through my college years and beyond. Yes there are things in Discworld that will zoom right by a kid and only land when you come back to it as an adult. That’s part of why they’re good books. There’s things like that in Lloyd Alexander’s Prydain Cycle (Book of Three, Black Cauldron, etc) that hit me like a ton of bricks when I pick up those little books forty years after I first read them as a kid and completely missed those parts. Stories can speak to multiple ages on multiple levels.

jfengel 2y ago
That is how "woke" is used now. Any resemblance to the original use is completely lost. It is merely "things I don't like". And it has become a convenient shibboleth: anyone using the word that way has nothing of value to say to me on any topic.
- tacitusarc 2y ago
  Perhaps ironically, that’s not actually what shibboleth means.
  - jfengel 2y ago
    "A common or longstanding belief, custom, or catchphrase associated with a particular group, especially one with little current meaning or truth." (Wiktionary). If you mean to restrict it to the Biblical usage of pronunciation, it generalized past that centuries ago.

anastasiapenova 2y ago

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Vsolar 2y ago

I always found Pratchett's novels to be amazing sources of humor and creativity. I'm glad I'm not alone on that one.

patrickmay 2y ago
Terry Pratchett hasn’t been an escapist writer for quite some time. He’ll amuse you, sure, but he won’t tell you that things are great just the way they are or that they’re hopeless and there’s nothing you can do. He’ll tell you that you — yes, you — should make them better. And then he’ll do something even more radical. He’ll make you think you can. -- randombrethren, Tumblr
roter 2y ago
One of his (Sir Terry) sources for inspiration was Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable [0]. Indeed he wrote a foreword for one of them. [0] Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable

rdtsc 2y ago

> And it only gets sillier from there. That’s exactly where it fails for me: it is too cute, like a longer than necessary joke. It’s just not my cup of tea to read and think “oh yeah, I see they inverted the thing, very cute, they even have the elephants and the turtles”. It’s ok but maybe for a short essay or a comic book only.

dcminter 2y ago
This sounds like you might have read only the early novels which, yes, were mainly silly. Try Night Watch perhaps? There's a bit of background silliness - residual from all the world building that's gone on before - but to me it's one of his most thoughtful novels. It's perfectly ok for them not to be your cuppa of course; my Mum and I loved them but my Dad never got into them despite trying quite a few times. Funny because generally our tastes intersected quite thoroughly.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  Night watch is probably my favourite, but for me Jingo is the one with the most depth.
  - stevekemp 2y ago
    I can see why you'd choose it, but if picking a standalone "Small Gods" is the one I'd always choose. (To be honest I'm lying, the standalone book I prefer myself is Pyramids, but the one I'd recommend to others is Small Gods.)
    - travisgriggs 2y ago
      Thief of Time is my fav of the standalones. Always wish there had been more of that. If you like Death, Hogfather is my first recommendation.
    - dcminter 2y ago
      "The trouble with you, Ibid, is that you think you're the biggest bloody authority on everything" :D So many good gags in that one. I love the cinematic flashback scenes while Pteppic is falling off the wall. Plus it's where the "Pterry" nickname comes from of course.

cancerhacker 2y ago

I love discworld and prosetyilize its virtues when and where I can, but two thoughts about this: 1 - why not both? 2 - via MST3K “If you're wondering how he eats & breathes, And other science facts...(la! la! la!) Then repeat to yourself its just a show, I should really just relax...”

karaterobot 2y ago

> I won’t get into whether Discworld is better or worse as a fictional universe than Middle Earth. "I won't get into which book is better, today I am only evaluating these books according to a set of rules I am making up, to see which succeeds at something neither author set out to achieve, and which most readers don't know or care about, and which is ultimately just an analogy for something else. Intrigued? Read on!"

tigerlily 2y ago
> at something neither author set out to achieve And that would give me cause to read no further. Edit: for reasons expressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43306581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43306581

ben_ 2y ago

> Their ideology is something like the Wokism of Discworld, a deadening, stifling, faceless force of intersectional lifelessness. What? Do words even have meaning anymore? How is that anything to do with being "woke"?

notahacker 2y ago
I think Pratchett probably revolved in his grave at the idea that the lifelessness of the Auditors came from lack of contempt towards minorities...

joeconway 2y ago

“As an extended allegory for society and technology it absolutely sucks and is also ludicrously wrong-headed” > As for any inner meaning or ‘message’, it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical Tolkien himself in the foreword to fellowship This person needs to cool it with the pseudo intellectualism and let people enjoy things

Pfhortune 2y ago

The idea of crypto as a force for plurality is baffling. Crypto is just as controlled by the “sourcerers” of round world as state controlled fiat currency. Distributed ledgers make no difference here. It’s still just “chosen ones” projecting their power. And the jab at “wokism” is pretty ironic, as the right has been making a very overt push for rendering culture into a grey goo, by quashing diversity.

Woodsandra 2y ago

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travisgriggs 2y ago

As I scroll through the various discworld commentaries here, one of the things I haven't seen surface much yet is Pratchett as a dialog artist. My dad and I were both discussing just the other day how we’re honestly happy just picking up any Discworld book, opening it anywhere, and having a listen on what the characters are saying to each other at the moment. I’m not sure what others have created dialogue like that. Maybe Michael Sullivan in his Theft of Swords series.

i_don_t_know 2y ago
The dialogs and the interaction between characters are also driving the story in a natural way. It’s like those screwball comedies from the 30s (His Girl Friday etc). Pratchett had a good ear for how people talk, and he managed to put it on page. There are no lengthy stilted lectures (characters explaining stuff to other characters) as in some other books by other authors, and only few (and usually short) descriptions of what happens when and then this and then that and then something else.
ggm 2y ago
How he sets up "Minge drinking" is a very good example.
- swyx 2y ago
  which book is that? what about it?
  - ggm 2y ago
    "Thud" The women coppers go out for a drink. Fred and Nobbs observe and make comment. Pratchett knew he wanted the pun(e) and I think worked out how to get it into dialogue
dcminter 2y ago
Stephen Briggs, who adapted several of the works for the stage, said the dialogue was an absolute gift for that. Think of how the "Dread Portal" scene in Guards Guards! would play out on stage and one sees exactly what he means.

Animats 2y ago

The author alludes to a general problem with popular culture - the cult of the Chosen One. Pixar has some in-house rules for stories. One of them is: Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___ That sums up a Chosen One story. Chosen One protagonists do not work their way up. They are special snowflakes. Star Wars is an extreme case of Chosen One popular culture. So is the Marvel Overextended Universe. (Note that Star Trek is not. Starfleet people start at the bottom and work up.) The top 8 highest grossing films of all time, unadjusted for inflation, [1] are all Chosen One movies. Overexposure to Chosen One stories predisposes people to look for a Strong Leader, one who is somehow special. This seems to be a problem. Historically, the United States didn't work that way, having rebelled against a European monarchy which did. But I digress. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films

Detrytus 2y ago
I fail to see how "Titanic" is a Chosen One story...
ViktorRay 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces The stories you are talking about, also known as The Monomyth, have been part of every recorded culture and civilization. It seems that the Chosen One stuff is not a result of stories. It is a fundamental part of our species and that is reflected in our most popular stories. From ancient times all the way to today.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  Allegedly. The monomyth has to be stretched very thin to fit over some of the greatest stories told by humans to each other. Take the Iliad. Where's the monomyth? Achilles is an asshole, he gets into a fight with his boss, causes his bestie to get killed and then gets killed himself. There's a wooden horse. End of story. No monomyth there, guv'nor. Nor in the Odyssey. Smart guy wins the Trojan war with impossile stratagem. He pisses off the God of the Sea and takes 10 years to reach home, losing all his companions along the way. A little massacre to clear the air and they live happily ever after. End of story. No monomyth. I could go on. But, you know, that's the Iliad and the Odyssey. Should be enough.

galacticaactual 2y ago

An utterly uncalled for hit piece on a much beloved piece of work (LOTR).

ggm 2y ago
It's not the first and it won't be the last. Remember the inklings used to groan when he wanted to read another chapter. So even in drafting his friends were agin him. Lewis wanted beer and belches. Strange how his own sermonising is so boring.

satisfice 2y ago

I can't take Discworld seriously. It doesn't even take itself seriously. I read the first book, which was full of random deus doing ex machina all over the place, and tapped out.

qznc 2y ago
The first rule of Discworld fandom: Don't start with the first book. Pratchett himself said so and that is mentioned in the article.
dcminter 2y ago
Perhaps you should try one of his other 60 or so books some time? Seems a bit narrow minded otherwise.
ggm 2y ago
It's OK not to like things and it's OK to change your mind. I didn't like discworld and I changed my mind. It's also OK not to read things. I've never finished Ulysses or seen the point of Finnigans wake or Buddenbrooks or heaps of other great works. I love Mansfield Park. My partner hates it. Even in Austen you can pick and chose which bit of ivory to pick up.
- defrost 2y ago
  Make 2025 the year of not reading At Swim-Two-Birds !!
  - ggm 2y ago
    I did read it, many years ago but I may decide not to re read it. Unlike wake, it's usefully short Regrettably it's not about a bicycle or de selby
    - defrost 2y ago
      Pffft, readers, mar ná beidh ár leithéidí arís ann, who's got that kind of time anymore? (Available on StageFlix: https://irishplayography.com/play?playid=31428 https://irishplayography.com/play?playid=31428 )

popalchemist 2y ago

Reading LOTR as about technology is like reading Alice in Wonderland as about tea time ettiquette. For fuck's sake. LOTR makes its theme and conceits explicit - it is about the appeal of power to the ego. Industrialization is an expression of that will to power, and its ability to magnify man's already-present distorted relationship with nature. That industry relies on technology does not make technology the central topic or even the target of critique. Bone-headed take.

golergka 2y ago
Reading is a creative process. You should not be bound by author's intention or by conventional knowledge about the material. If you approach it with a new perspective and get new ideas out of it, or even if it just means you have a good time, then it's worth it. In fact, Alice in Wonderland relationship to ettiquette, both at a tea table and in royal court, is a curious theme.
- popalchemist 2y ago
  While you can read anything as anything, not all readings are equally meritorious. Making an unmeritorious reading into the basis of a critique is a form of straw man.

taocoyote 2y ago

The stories in Discworld books are character driven. LOTR is much more plot driven. I feel like this is an apples and oranges comparison. It also feels a bit like the false dichotomy arguments from my teenage years, where you could like either Star Trek or Star Wars, but not both.

rkagerer 2y ago

Pratchett's series of books are the only ones I've reread more than half a dozen times, in some cases. Love his work.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago

>> I have a rule-of-thumb: The more seriously you take Discworld, the smarter you get about Roundworld. Oh come off it. I've read all the Discworld novels. I've also read every other book that Terry Pratchett ever wrote [1]. All, that is, except for one that I've left for... later [2]. If Pratchett were still with us and heard anyone making such pompous statements about Discworld he'd slap the culprit in the face [3]. See, the thing to understand about Terry Pratchett is that he was quintessentially British, and by that I mean the good British [4]. As such his greatest fear was that someone might take what he wrote seriously and try to follow it like some kind of life advice. Remember what he quipped when he was knighted for "services to literature": "I suspect the 'services to literature' consisted of refraining from trying to write any" And that, as they say, is that. ______________ [1] Yes, even "Where's my Cow?". [2] Problem is, I don't remember which one so I'll have to read them all again to be sure. Hey, win-win. [3] Gently. He was a gentle man. [4] Think Lord Byron, not Lord Elgin. But without all the drinking and womanising, just the big heart.

qqqult 2y ago
4 foot notes? This guy Pratchetts.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  My notes aren't that tall :P (That was so good this Sunday morning. Thanks :D)
  - MezzoDelCammin 2y ago
    they are "Pratchett" footnotes though. My introduction to Discworld happened when I bought a few second hand paperbacks on Portobello for under a pound in order to have something to read in the bus back from London. Later (well and truly addicted) I wenth through a few more when I was commuting regularly by train. But about a half of the Discworld novels I read as ebooks either on a Kindle, or a Kobo. It has always been "frustrating" to have to click through the footnote links in Pratchetts ebooks. In a paper book (just like in Your comment) the footnotes really complete the train of thought. Often it's the whole pun of a joke. You know it's there. You damn well know it's worth it. On paper, all it takes is a glance down. For me, the "Pratchett footnote" is therefore characterized as anything where "click to see a footnote" somehow breaks that payoff spell a bit.

samirillian 2y ago

1) inconsistent argument: Frodo is just as mediocre as Rincewind. 2) I don’t respect the bald claim that all chosen ones are bad, or the implicit claim that we can somehow avoid them. Universals always have exceptions. If we’re being “real” here about our agential change, we must admit that species evolve by natural selection we might say genetic chosen ones. And anyway I do think there are some special people so sue me. 3) consider the names of Peter Thiel’s companies: palantir, mithril. Thiel, I’m sure ironically, named his companies after objects possessing exactly that moral ambiguity that the author claims does not exist in Tolkien’s world. Thiel is telegraphing it straight to you via Tolkien: do not trust me, I will use these objects for my own gain. 4) Discworld can afford to be light and playful because it was written in easy times. In one preface, Tolkien wrote that all the world’s great powers would obviously have tried to turn the ring into a weapon if it really existed.

ggm 2y ago

Tolkien himself said to beware allegorical readings. He said had he sought allegory, by book III the rings of power would have been seized for good or ill, and the Hobbits discarded as irrelevant or enslaved. Likewise the palentir (!) Tolkien also faced extensive criticism from Christians for a non catholic fictive world, something he easily disregarded as trite. He was a loyal devout catholic in every respect. His biography by Humphrey Carpenter goes into all this. J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography, 1977

protocolture 2y ago

I quite like the Most Von Lipwig stuff. But honestly KJ Parkers novels are better again.

hummingn3rd 2y ago

I thought this was going to be about all the physics rules in the discwolrd, like how light travels, the rule of the one chance in a million, or that cats can see the eight color or Death etc. I'd love to see a list of all of them, I haven't noticed any inconsistencies so far but I haven't read that many novels yet.

seivan 2y ago

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wolvesechoes 2y ago

I love Discworld, both its universum and characters like Death and Vimes, yet author first proves that they lack cognitive abilities to understand and position Tolkien's work, then gives hints that their understanding of Roundworld is as superficial as is the character of Discworld, which is no less a work of escapism as is Middle-Earth. People tend to mistake sarcasm and satire with realistic and valuable insight. If, for example, you want to understand something about war in our Roundworld, do not read LotR or Jingo. Read Thucidydes.

yapyap 2y ago

How’s about not looking to fantasy books for inspiration on how real world socities should interact with technology? You’re basically basing your whole technology worldview off a fantasy world created by a single person

PhasmaFelis 2y ago

I can't get past the second paragraph, where he introduces "Chiang's Law." I click through for the definition: > This law can be stated compactly as: science fiction is about strange rules, while fantasy is about special people. Anyone who believes that has not read much of either. And the writer admits this immediately: > Whether the story is about spaceships or dragons is irrelevant. I have a hard time listening to someone who use established terminology to refer to some completely orthogonal concept, in a context guaranteed to cause confusion, for no reason except to snipe at a genre they don't like, for reasons they know are neither fundamental to nor unique to that genre.

elendee 2y ago

Tolkien was simply articulating the fact that the distance between non-existence and existence is far greater than the distance between existence and technologically-enhanced-existence can ever be.