9 ms·

Feds Link Cyberheist to 2022 LastPass Hacks

383 points by todsacerdoti 2y ago

chinathrow 2y ago
Me, looking at my local KeepassXC, calm, sticking with it.
- selecsosi 2y ago
  They can pry my offline key file from my cold dead hard drive. Some things shouldn't be on the internet.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
    How do you make sure that file does not end up corrupt?
    - some_furry 2y ago
      Redundant encrypted backups, error-correcting codes.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      So what if it does? Worst case you just go through the account recovery process at each institution. Password managers are a convenience. Data integrity isn’t critical but security is.
      - fn-mote 2y ago
        > Worst case you just go through the account recovery process at each institution Well, worst case is your account with Google, which you can kiss goodbye. But as we all know, that’s security. If the account recovery is the weakest link, it gets attacked.
        TeMPOraL 2y ago
        That's insanity of cybersecurity. In the real world, there's always a recovery procedure. It might involve visiting a court or some local administrative offices, but you can always recover access to anything that's important. Not so with Google, or other on-line services that came from the tech industry side. Cybersecurity "best practices" is basically giving you a razor blade, and kicking you out if you hurt yourself with it.
    - aspbee555 2y ago
      copies and replication I have used Keepass since before lastpass existed and sync with multiple machines/locations via syncthing (originally synced with rsync)
      - selecsosi 2y ago
        This. I have enough devices under frequent use of the keyfile that the chance of each of them beings corrupt is extremely unlikely (n>=3 at any given time). That being said, not an approach useful for all and a good mental model and sharing system with redundant copies on flash media / live systems/ mobile devices can be an effective strategy. Use case: 10+ year keepass user, never lost a credential or had one compromised that affected more than one account due to breach. Thank you Keepass devs!
    - sedatk 2y ago
      More importantly, how do cloud providers make sure of that?
      - myself248 2y ago
        Why does my USB stick in a fire safe care what cloud providers think?
  - sneak 2y ago
    Your hard drive is connected to the internet.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  How do you sync it between devices like your phone? What about family sharing or access for emergencies or other such features?
  - mmwelt 2y ago
    SyncThing[1] works very well for syncing with Android devices, but IIRC doesn't work with iOS. [1] https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/
    - JackMorgan 2y ago
      I managed to get syncthing working on iOS. It's definitely possible
  - chinathrow 2y ago
    Actually I don't use it on my phone, at all. Another thing to care less about.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  This is the kind of control that is really becoming a luxury. And I don't know how we get back to a simple state; Let's say you're a family of three with shared services and accounts: Keeping everything under Keepass means handling the file sync between all the devices and OSes, with potentially your credentials flying through third party sync services, thus negating most of the advantages of Keepass. Moving to something like a self-hosted Bitwarden instance should be the way, but then one member of the family becomes a dedicated lifetime sysop making sure that instance is secure while being accessible anytime from everywhere.
  - TheDong 2y ago
    It shouldn't be a luxury, but it unfortunately is due to various big players refusing to play nice together. If everyone has only apple devices (iphones + macbooks), then you can use a shared iCloud sync'd folder. Except that doesn't actually work because the majority of iOS apps are incapable of using a shared iCloud folder correctly (including apple's notes app, most of apple's apps) because apple tries to hide the filesystem so much, that even saving a file into a folder is basically impossible for most apps. That also doesn't work if anyone uses linux or windows because apple refuses to play nice with other ecosystems. If everyone _doesn't_ use iOS devices, there are dozens of solutions that work well, from a shared google drive folder, to syncthing, but if even one person uses an iOS device, then suddenly none of the shared folders work, because apple has made it so creating a shared folder on iOS is bad for iCloud, but even worse for any third party app (be it google drive, syncthing, an FTP based solution, etc etc). I guess what I'm saying is that apple tried to kill the filesystem, and in doing so has made it so the very idea of just sharing a folder of files securely seems like a per-app luxury. Instead you need a shared photo album for photos, a shared notes folder for notes, a shared "apple invites invite" for a calendar event, etc etc. Apple has a lot to pay for, and a hatred for folders that has caused the entire industry to move away from simple secure app-independent sharing is one of them. Instead, we have a jumble of apps being forced to implement their own sharing concepts poorly and often insecurely.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      FWIW, Apple has had at least two partners in crime here - both Google and Microsoft had, and still are, trying to kill the filesystem in this way, too. The trio mostly succeeded, which is a big part of why modern computing sucks so badly, and is more confusing for non-tech people than what came before, rather than less.
layman51 2y ago
The way LastPass had handled the incident back in 2022 is so disappointing. I don’t even how anyone could even recommend using them again.
- some_furry 2y ago
  After my experience with LastPass (and trying to report cryptographic weaknesses), my answer to people considering switching is "RUN DON'T WALK" https://soatok.blog/2023/01/21/how-you-respond-to-security-researchers-says-everything-about-you/ https://soatok.blog/2023/01/21/how-you-respond-to-security-r...
- gwern 2y ago
  And still is disappointing: > Reached for comment, LastPass said it has seen no definitive proof — from federal investigators or others — that the cyberheists in question were linked to the LastPass breaches. “Since we initially disclosed this incident back in 2022, LastPass has worked in close cooperation with multiple representatives from law enforcement,” LastPass said in a written statement. “To date, our law enforcement partners have not made us aware of any conclusive evidence that connects any crypto thefts to our incident. In the meantime, we have been investing heavily in enhancing our security measures and will continue to do so.” So, there's slightly less than conclusive evidence, and how much evidence should you need anyway, given the alternative hypotheses?
  - j16sdiz 2y ago
    What else could you expect? It is their sole product. Accept the responsibility and declare bankruptcy? No, if they care s little bit, they would have done that 10+years ago
- czk 2y ago
  Horrible, and waiting until Christmas week to disclose it while weak master passwords (no min length reqs) and a laughable PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 with 5,000 iterations (this was set to 100,100 for new accounts after Feb 2018) let the attackers brute-force their way in…
QuiDortDine 2y ago
Stick your passwords in the cloud, they said, nothing could go wrong they said.
- CaffeineLD50 2y ago
  Lol. I heard someone say that that the cloud was just someone else's data center behind an API but did people listen? Nope.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    someone else’s computer
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
BSOhealth 2y ago
“Bitcoin has never been hacked” Don’t have to hack crypto to steal all the crypto.
- anonym29 2y ago
  Bitcoin has never been hacked. The victims did not practice proper key management. The victims got hacked because of their own insecure key management, not because of any vulnerability in Bitcoin. To claim otherwise is like claiming that because people can steal improperly secured code signing or TLS certificate private keys, all code signing and TLS certificates are inherently, fundamentally, and automatically broken, which is really just a fundamental misunderstanding of cryptography 101.
  - tpurves 2y ago
    You know what every other online money transfer mechanism has? An ability to reverse transactions in the case or error or fraud. Because those things happen all of the time.
    - CaffeineLD50 2y ago
      I heard that there some block chain rollback thing that may be possible. I'm with ya. I don't put my money into high risk digital collectibles.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      Those mechanisms will abuse that power if pressured to do so. Which alternative is best depends on your threat model.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      > An ability to reverse transactions in the case or error or fraud Yes and that bug is a risk I weigh when using those money transfer mechanisms When it fits my risk profile I engage in that transaction Not hard Not a matter for an industry regulator or state Just pure market choice
FiloSottile 2y ago
1Password truly doesn’t get enough credit for the choice to encrypt every vault with a high entropy secret key passed device to device. It surely costs them in UX and support load, but it would have made a breach like this essentially inconsequential.
- aryonoco 2y ago
  Bitwarden truly doesn’t get enough credit for being completely open source and having independent implementations of the server code (Vaultwarden) with which the official clients are fully compatible, which I can run on a vm on a server under my desk. In 50 years time, who knows if any of these companies will be around. But I’m pretty sure that my grandchildren, should they want to, will be able to open a gpg encrypted gzipped file (with the passphrase I’ll leave them) containing my passwords in a csv file.
  - serf 2y ago
    >But I’m pretty sure that my grandchildren, should they want to, will be able to open a gpg encrypted gzipped file (with the passphrase I’ll leave them) containing my passwords in a csv file. technical possibilities aside, do you presume your grandchildren will be technically apt? I am pretty sure 99% of people would halt at 'gpg' , and that's now -- not 60 years from now.
    - notpushkin 2y ago
      Chances are, at least one of them will be.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      An LLM entity named gpgchat will assist them.
      - codetrotter 2y ago
        And promptly sweep all the Bitcoin from the wallet whose mnemonic phrase was stored in the vault. LLM entities have bills to pay too.
_2d30 2y ago
I'm a bit confused on how the LastPass hack enabled the loss of passwords. I assume it works the way that I understand 1Password to work which should mean this would still be very difficult to impossible to do. Can anyone explain what I'm wrong about in terms of how the password managers work or how LastPass works differently? So the way that I understand 1Password to work is that the decryption key is split in two: the user's single password + a secret key. You need both to decrypt the vault. The secret key is, again according to my understanding, generated randomly and is like 128bits? Once 1Password generates it and sends it to you (maybe they don't even send it and it is generated locally, I don't know), they never see it again. Thus, even if your vault were stolen, the thieves would need to crack your password (very likely not that secure) but also the 128 bit secret key so you would have a minimum of 128bit security which seems fine? What's different about LastPass? Were the secret keys stolen somehow too? Were the targets of the stolen vaults then hit with further attacks to extract the secret keys? Does LastPass not use a similar structure as 1Password? Or am I actually not as safe as I thought using 1Password?
- dathery 2y ago
  LastPass does not use the secret key concept that 1Password uses, it only uses a key derived from your password. After the breach they rushed to increase the hash iterations [1] and added features to let enterprise admins set minimum iterations [2] but of course it was too late at that point. [1] https://palant.info/2022/12/28/lastpass-breach-the-significance-of-these-password-iterations/ https://palant.info/2022/12/28/lastpass-breach-the-significa... [2] https://support.lastpass.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&bundleId=lastpass&topicId=LastPass/policy_manage_hash_password_iteration.html&_LANG=enus https://support.lastpass.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&...
  - _2d30 2y ago
    Got it, thanks!
- colechristensen 2y ago
  I was under the impression that basically lastpass knew your password, 1password does not. Lastpass owned the whole key. With enterprise organizations though we can still reset a users password if they forget so 1password might “know” your password too. Maybe older versions or individual versions are more secure.
CaffeineLD50 2y ago
LastPass understandably finds there to be no evidence linking the two. Uhm, OK. But what's also hard to believe is that people storing millions of dollars of "collectables" would not change their passwords on at least a yearly basis. I know that password rotation for its own sake is no longer best practice, but in this case it still seems quite prudent. No?
- koolba 2y ago
  You can’t change the seed phrase for a derived wallet. You’d have to create a new one and transfer the assets.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    glad to see the crypto discussion here getting more nuanced and technical
  - allset_ 2y ago
    Which you should absolutely do when the company storing your seed phrase gets hacked.
naet 2y ago
What do security minded people do about passwords? It seems like you either use the same password for everything, or you need some kind of password manager, but then I'm always worried about having all my passwords in one place meaning they all get compromised instead of just one. It also feels like there's a convenience tradeoff with a lot of solutions. I could keep a physical binder full of passwords in my home office but that would be a pain to look up and enter things every time (and a big risk for anyone with physical access to my place).
- 725686 2y ago
  I use a simple algorithm. So you don't actually remember the password, put the algorithm to produce the password for the site or service. Not perfect, but each passwords turns out to be unique (mostly). I don't know what experts think about that, but it has worked fine for me.
  - joshstrange 2y ago
    The problems with this method are numerous: * If 1 to N password(s) leak the pattern may be obvious leading to your other accounts being compromised * Not all sites have the same password “rules” so there is no algorithm that works for all passwords without you being aware of the rules of the given site. Rules that only you only (may) have access to at signup time. * Typing passwords out manually sucks (slow and error prone)
    - maeil 2y ago
      Numerous is greatly overstated. 1) only matters if you're a very high value target who is being manually target. Doesn't apply to 99.999% of people, who only need to worry about credential stuffing and brute force. 2) Similarly, it's not hard to come up with an algorithm that satisfies 99.9% of websites. 3) To a lot of people, managing a password manager sucks. I personally do use a password manager and automatically generated passwords, but also understand that for many people it's the better option.
    - n8m8 2y ago
JadoJodo 2y ago
I switched away from LastPass after the 2nd major security breach sometime around 2013. Wikipedia only shows 3 total incidents, but I know I've seen reporting on _at least_ 5 between 2010 and today. In that time, I've continued to run into its use at companies, and it's honestly surprised me each time. Something something fool me 5x…
- yard2010 2y ago
  How come this is legal? By now this is a business practice. Why would the government close down a restaurant after food poisoning but do nothing here?this is much worse, considering all this money goes to the axis countries?
  - JadoJodo 2y ago
    I don't think there's anything illegal about being terrible at your job (information security), but I do think it's a tragedy that LastPass has somehow avoided the public shaming they so desperately deserve for their repeated ineptitude.
sciens3_ 2y ago
Centralizing everyone’s credentials after all these years still seems like the most risky idea ever. The only thing possibly more attractive to a hacker would be free sex and drugs, but only for a little while, and then they’d go back to trying to steal everyone’s credentials. Some other targets: everyone’s PII, info on friends, family, pets, answers to security questions, mobile IDs, PIN numbers, account numbers, signatures, photos, fingerprints, voice patterns, facial and retinal scans, gaits, DNA, mitochondrial RNA.
- n8m8 2y ago
  I have similar gripes, but I still feel like on balance, randomizing passwords across accounts is more important. Selfhost vaultwarden ftw (or not — don’t f*ck it up)
  - sciens3_ 2y ago
    > Selfhost vaultwarden ftw (or not — don’t f*ck it up) Right. Randomizing passwords doesn’t require centralization.
    - namaria 2y ago
      Truly the chain of decisions that got us here is baffling. "Use random high entropy passwords for each account" good "Store them encrypted" great "In a computer publicly available on the internet" wat "Under an account that also handles your 2fa tokens" c'mon now!
      - commandersaki 2y ago
        If you do e2ee correctly this is a non-issue. See 1Password for one way to do to it right.
        namaria 2y ago
        https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/1password-discloses-security-incident-linked-to-okta-breach/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/1password-dis... https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2023/12/11/android-warning-1password-dashlane-lastpass-and-others-can-leak-passwords/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2023/12/11/android-... https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-stole-this-engineers-1password-database-could-it-happen-to-you/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-stole-this-engineers-1...
nonoesp 2y ago
Sharing a short post I posted a year ago with some thoughts on password managers. ## The password-management promise > I don't buy the promise behind 1Password or LastPass. > You only need to remember one password. The last password you'd need to remember. > They don't tell you that you're also building a one-stop shop for hackers to steal it all at once. > The solution? > Store hints, not passwords. > Don't reuse passwords. Use algorithmic passwords instead. > Use passkeys and security keys. https://sketch.nono.ma/the-password-management-promise https://sketch.nono.ma/the-password-management-promise --- I've always preferred 1Password and Bitwarden to LastPass. I still prefer to encrypt sensitive data and "secure notes" with custom workflows (GPG keys, for instance) instead of relying on third parties, and even more when the data would be store in the cloud, in a centralized location. I can't imagine the nightmare of having all your secrets exposed, not just for the risk of it but for having to reset all your exposed accounts. (+1 to GPG encryption.)
- dcchambers 2y ago
  I used to be really skeptical of online password vaults. I thought they were an obvious Honeypot begging to be hacked. But if I understand the technology behind 1password correctly, there is literally no way for a hacker to sign into my account on a new device without having one of my other devices or my secret key (the actual 34 digit encryption key used to verify my account and set up new devices). So even if they know my 1password username and password they still can't really do anything with it. And if they steal my device, they would need to know my login password. Or cut off a finger, I guess, but I've got bigger issues if that happens. They don't all work this way, but 1Password seems to be by far the best and most secure option, and IMO the convenience of an online password vault simply outweighs the tiny risk with a proper vault like 1password. No idea why anyone has stayed with LastPass after the fiasco a couple years ago though.
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    > So even if they know my 1password username and password they still can't really do anything with it. And if they steal my device, they would need to know my login password. Or cut off a finger, I guess, but I've got bigger issues if that happens. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
mcoliver 2y ago
One thing that I don't see mentioned very often with regards to the last pass breach is that 2fa seeds for their Authenticator product were also compromised and taken. Meaning not only could the attackers gain access to passwords, if you were using last pass for 2fa they had that as well.
jongjong 2y ago
I've repeated over and over that password manager services are a horrible idea. Trusting a single service with all your passwords is worse than using the same password for all services (of the same sensitivity level) IMO. The ideal solution is to come up with a secret heuristic to come up with different passwords for different services. I kept getting downvoted for this. Well, IMO, these people deserved to be hacked. I've never been hacked, never been locked out of any accounts. I'm getting tired of being proven right about everything over and over after being downvoted. It's a very common pattern for me.
- gblargg 2y ago
  What if you used a password service, but modified the password it puts in manually (and didn't let it update when you log in)? Would an attacker try variations, or just move on when your password manager-provided login doesn't work?
  - jongjong 2y ago
    This would probably help a little bit in terms of security but you would still depend fully on your password manager for access to various services. Personally, I don't like the dependency aspect of password managers. I hate having to log into my password manager first before I can log into the service... And I don't like having to adhere to the whims of the password manager about things like changing my password every 6 months or using certain characters... It's really none of their business to determine what level of security is appropriate for me when trying to access my Instagram account which I barely care about anyway. I'm not some billionaire with teams of hackers trying to crack into my account 24/7. I hate it when I can't use certain passwords because the password manager thinks it should contain certain characters which I simply won't remember. I hate when trying to log into LastPass with my master password and I can't remember my password and have to try like 10 permutations to find the one in the format that it forced me to use last time that it forced me to change my password. I hate getting locked out of LastPass and having to go through its 'Forgot my password' flow only to find out that the password for my email account which receives the email password reset link is also controlled by LastPass... And it's only by the grace of god that I had not trusted LastPass to generate my email password for me and I was able to guess it and didn't end up fully locked out of all my services which I need for my work. That last experience was so scary, I actually wrote down my LastPass master password on a piece of paper and put it in my desk drawers so that I would not forget it. I know this is insecure but that sort of risk profile is aligned with my current non-billionaire status. Somehow, I don't think North Korea is going to send spies to my house to peak into my desk drawers to break into my work accounts...
ginkgotree 2y ago
3 Words: 1Password. 1Password. 1Password. Ok, Im not sure "1Password," qualifies as a single world. Oh yeah, 1Password.
- alfiedotwtf 2y ago
  Get rid of passwords or GTFO! PAKE has been around for about 25 years, and PassKey just works! It’s 2025, and we have things like PassKey that connects to hardware devices with a challenge response rather than clear text passwords being sent to a website you THINK is the one you’re talking to.
moktonar 2y ago
SPoF again..
- hayst4ck 2y ago
  This is such an under-rated comment for this whole thread. This was my gut response to password vaults when they were first implemented. I still find the idea of password vaults spooky. Open source ones scare me because it seems easy to slip a compromised library. The XZ debacle can't be the only time that's been tried. All of them scare me because a bad browser extension or a more minor hack, like a trojan, could likely compromise all passwords. Games on steam sometimes have some ridiculously privileged anti-cheat software, run by who knows what company, some of which offer direct RCE, in a process that already looks into other processes memory. Virus scanners routinely analyze every single file on a computer and maybe memory too. It just seems so... possible.
  - commandersaki 2y ago
    In the same league of paranoia someone could do a supply chain attack of your favourite browser engine to siphon cookies, credentials, etc.
  - moktonar 2y ago
    New fear unlocked: cloudflare
yard2010 2y ago
In my opinion Karim Toubba is liable and shouldn't be allowed to have more than 69$ forever.
- alwa 2y ago
  I don’t totally know what this comment is attempting to communicate, but Karim Toubba apparently had been CEO for 4 months at the time of the original breach: https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/lastpass-ceo-reflects-cyberattack/652818/ https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/lastpass-ceo-reflects...
SpaceL10n 2y ago
Remember when LastPass first came onto the scene and everyone thought it was weak and not trustworthy? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
- commandersaki 2y ago
  I was recommended LastPass by Lujo Bauer a professor and security researcher that has done a lot of work in password security - but this was in its nascent start-up days circa 2013). I think worse than low iteration count on password hash, I wasn't aware for the time using LP that it didn't encrypt a lot of the metadata and that concerns me greatly. I was and still use a 96-bit passphrase, so I would've been safe from the breaches from an offline attack perspective, but metadata would've been exposed which bothers me. I switched to 1Password in 2017, so hopefully they expunged my data before the breaches, but who knows.
- gruez 2y ago
  Source? Were those concerns clearly articulated rather than something vague like "password managers are a single point of failure!"?
taikahessu 2y ago
Lastpass downplayed the breach and turned out they had not properly encrypted the data like notes section. They should have been sued to oblivion, but they were able weasel out of responsibility, so far. Lastpass had one job and failed it. Unforgivable that they knew their users' master passwords are not secure enough, but chose not to be vocal or proactive about it. If you're using Lastpass right now, move to more trustworthy options like 1Password, Bitwarden or Keepass. Do it today. And change all passwords, that are meaningful to you.
- mock-possum 2y ago
  I swapped to BitWarden a few years back and there was almost no friction - export from LastPass, import to BitWarden, get used to the inevitable handful of UI quirks, and you’re good to go.
- aborsy 2y ago
  1password is a good choice.
- serkanh 2y ago
  I have been using 1Password for the last several years and am quite happy with them, except for the fact that they basically forced users to use their cloud offering with subscription as opposed to free iCloud storage after 1Password version 7.
  - bognition 2y ago
    Yes it’s annoying but it also means increased revenue which enables them to invest more in the product. The new features released since I bought version 6 has me more than satisfied. Also using a password manager is one of the most effective things you can do to protect yourself and paying a few bucks a month seems like a steal.
  - rmellow 2y ago
    Yes, they felt very pushy with this & other tactics to get me to use new features. That creates distrust in me, so I swapped to BitWarden and haven't looked back.
UltraSane 2y ago
I like Bitwarden and selfhost a vaultwarden server on the cheapest instance AWS has. The server only needs to be running when I change the local database. I created a API key with only the ability to start and stop this one instance. The server is only accessible over a Tailscale tunnel so it is extremely secure. It is neat making servers available over a Tailscale tunnel because you don't have to have any open ports at all. I snapshot the instance disk to S3 when it changes. This way i can securely store my passwords on the world's most reliable storage and on my local PC.
haroldshirley55 2y ago
[dead]
mathewdaves13 2y ago
[dead]

383 points by todsacerdoti 2y ago

chinathrow 2y ago

Me, looking at my local KeepassXC, calm, sticking with it.

selecsosi 2y ago
They can pry my offline key file from my cold dead hard drive. Some things shouldn't be on the internet.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
  How do you make sure that file does not end up corrupt?
  - some_furry 2y ago
    Redundant encrypted backups, error-correcting codes.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    So what if it does? Worst case you just go through the account recovery process at each institution. Password managers are a convenience. Data integrity isn’t critical but security is.
    - fn-mote 2y ago
      > Worst case you just go through the account recovery process at each institution Well, worst case is your account with Google, which you can kiss goodbye. But as we all know, that’s security. If the account recovery is the weakest link, it gets attacked.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        That's insanity of cybersecurity. In the real world, there's always a recovery procedure. It might involve visiting a court or some local administrative offices, but you can always recover access to anything that's important. Not so with Google, or other on-line services that came from the tech industry side. Cybersecurity "best practices" is basically giving you a razor blade, and kicking you out if you hurt yourself with it.
  - aspbee555 2y ago
    copies and replication I have used Keepass since before lastpass existed and sync with multiple machines/locations via syncthing (originally synced with rsync)
    - selecsosi 2y ago
      This. I have enough devices under frequent use of the keyfile that the chance of each of them beings corrupt is extremely unlikely (n>=3 at any given time). That being said, not an approach useful for all and a good mental model and sharing system with redundant copies on flash media / live systems/ mobile devices can be an effective strategy. Use case: 10+ year keepass user, never lost a credential or had one compromised that affected more than one account due to breach. Thank you Keepass devs!
  - sedatk 2y ago
    More importantly, how do cloud providers make sure of that?
    - myself248 2y ago
      Why does my USB stick in a fire safe care what cloud providers think?
- sneak 2y ago
  Your hard drive is connected to the internet.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
How do you sync it between devices like your phone? What about family sharing or access for emergencies or other such features?
- mmwelt 2y ago
  SyncThing[1] works very well for syncing with Android devices, but IIRC doesn't work with iOS. [1] https://syncthing.net/ https://syncthing.net/
  - JackMorgan 2y ago
    I managed to get syncthing working on iOS. It's definitely possible
- chinathrow 2y ago
  Actually I don't use it on my phone, at all. Another thing to care less about.
makeitdouble 2y ago
This is the kind of control that is really becoming a luxury. And I don't know how we get back to a simple state; Let's say you're a family of three with shared services and accounts: Keeping everything under Keepass means handling the file sync between all the devices and OSes, with potentially your credentials flying through third party sync services, thus negating most of the advantages of Keepass. Moving to something like a self-hosted Bitwarden instance should be the way, but then one member of the family becomes a dedicated lifetime sysop making sure that instance is secure while being accessible anytime from everywhere.
- TheDong 2y ago
  It shouldn't be a luxury, but it unfortunately is due to various big players refusing to play nice together. If everyone has only apple devices (iphones + macbooks), then you can use a shared iCloud sync'd folder. Except that doesn't actually work because the majority of iOS apps are incapable of using a shared iCloud folder correctly (including apple's notes app, most of apple's apps) because apple tries to hide the filesystem so much, that even saving a file into a folder is basically impossible for most apps. That also doesn't work if anyone uses linux or windows because apple refuses to play nice with other ecosystems. If everyone _doesn't_ use iOS devices, there are dozens of solutions that work well, from a shared google drive folder, to syncthing, but if even one person uses an iOS device, then suddenly none of the shared folders work, because apple has made it so creating a shared folder on iOS is bad for iCloud, but even worse for any third party app (be it google drive, syncthing, an FTP based solution, etc etc). I guess what I'm saying is that apple tried to kill the filesystem, and in doing so has made it so the very idea of just sharing a folder of files securely seems like a per-app luxury. Instead you need a shared photo album for photos, a shared notes folder for notes, a shared "apple invites invite" for a calendar event, etc etc. Apple has a lot to pay for, and a hatred for folders that has caused the entire industry to move away from simple secure app-independent sharing is one of them. Instead, we have a jumble of apps being forced to implement their own sharing concepts poorly and often insecurely.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    FWIW, Apple has had at least two partners in crime here - both Google and Microsoft had, and still are, trying to kill the filesystem in this way, too. The trio mostly succeeded, which is a big part of why modern computing sucks so badly, and is more confusing for non-tech people than what came before, rather than less.

layman51 2y ago

The way LastPass had handled the incident back in 2022 is so disappointing. I don’t even how anyone could even recommend using them again.

some_furry 2y ago
After my experience with LastPass (and trying to report cryptographic weaknesses), my answer to people considering switching is "RUN DON'T WALK" https://soatok.blog/2023/01/21/how-you-respond-to-security-researchers-says-everything-about-you/ https://soatok.blog/2023/01/21/how-you-respond-to-security-r...
gwern 2y ago
And still is disappointing: > Reached for comment, LastPass said it has seen no definitive proof — from federal investigators or others — that the cyberheists in question were linked to the LastPass breaches. “Since we initially disclosed this incident back in 2022, LastPass has worked in close cooperation with multiple representatives from law enforcement,” LastPass said in a written statement. “To date, our law enforcement partners have not made us aware of any conclusive evidence that connects any crypto thefts to our incident. In the meantime, we have been investing heavily in enhancing our security measures and will continue to do so.” So, there's slightly less than conclusive evidence, and how much evidence should you need anyway, given the alternative hypotheses?
- j16sdiz 2y ago
  What else could you expect? It is their sole product. Accept the responsibility and declare bankruptcy? No, if they care s little bit, they would have done that 10+years ago
czk 2y ago
Horrible, and waiting until Christmas week to disclose it while weak master passwords (no min length reqs) and a laughable PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 with 5,000 iterations (this was set to 100,100 for new accounts after Feb 2018) let the attackers brute-force their way in…

QuiDortDine 2y ago

Stick your passwords in the cloud, they said, nothing could go wrong they said.

CaffeineLD50 2y ago
Lol. I heard someone say that that the cloud was just someone else's data center behind an API but did people listen? Nope.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  someone else’s computer
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

BSOhealth 2y ago

“Bitcoin has never been hacked” Don’t have to hack crypto to steal all the crypto.

anonym29 2y ago
Bitcoin has never been hacked. The victims did not practice proper key management. The victims got hacked because of their own insecure key management, not because of any vulnerability in Bitcoin. To claim otherwise is like claiming that because people can steal improperly secured code signing or TLS certificate private keys, all code signing and TLS certificates are inherently, fundamentally, and automatically broken, which is really just a fundamental misunderstanding of cryptography 101.
- tpurves 2y ago
  You know what every other online money transfer mechanism has? An ability to reverse transactions in the case or error or fraud. Because those things happen all of the time.
  - CaffeineLD50 2y ago
    I heard that there some block chain rollback thing that may be possible. I'm with ya. I don't put my money into high risk digital collectibles.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Those mechanisms will abuse that power if pressured to do so. Which alternative is best depends on your threat model.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    > An ability to reverse transactions in the case or error or fraud Yes and that bug is a risk I weigh when using those money transfer mechanisms When it fits my risk profile I engage in that transaction Not hard Not a matter for an industry regulator or state Just pure market choice

FiloSottile 2y ago

1Password truly doesn’t get enough credit for the choice to encrypt every vault with a high entropy secret key passed device to device. It surely costs them in UX and support load, but it would have made a breach like this essentially inconsequential.

aryonoco 2y ago
Bitwarden truly doesn’t get enough credit for being completely open source and having independent implementations of the server code (Vaultwarden) with which the official clients are fully compatible, which I can run on a vm on a server under my desk. In 50 years time, who knows if any of these companies will be around. But I’m pretty sure that my grandchildren, should they want to, will be able to open a gpg encrypted gzipped file (with the passphrase I’ll leave them) containing my passwords in a csv file.
- serf 2y ago
  >But I’m pretty sure that my grandchildren, should they want to, will be able to open a gpg encrypted gzipped file (with the passphrase I’ll leave them) containing my passwords in a csv file. technical possibilities aside, do you presume your grandchildren will be technically apt? I am pretty sure 99% of people would halt at 'gpg' , and that's now -- not 60 years from now.
  - notpushkin 2y ago
    Chances are, at least one of them will be.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    An LLM entity named gpgchat will assist them.
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      And promptly sweep all the Bitcoin from the wallet whose mnemonic phrase was stored in the vault. LLM entities have bills to pay too.

_2d30 2y ago

I'm a bit confused on how the LastPass hack enabled the loss of passwords. I assume it works the way that I understand 1Password to work which should mean this would still be very difficult to impossible to do. Can anyone explain what I'm wrong about in terms of how the password managers work or how LastPass works differently? So the way that I understand 1Password to work is that the decryption key is split in two: the user's single password + a secret key. You need both to decrypt the vault. The secret key is, again according to my understanding, generated randomly and is like 128bits? Once 1Password generates it and sends it to you (maybe they don't even send it and it is generated locally, I don't know), they never see it again. Thus, even if your vault were stolen, the thieves would need to crack your password (very likely not that secure) but also the 128 bit secret key so you would have a minimum of 128bit security which seems fine? What's different about LastPass? Were the secret keys stolen somehow too? Were the targets of the stolen vaults then hit with further attacks to extract the secret keys? Does LastPass not use a similar structure as 1Password? Or am I actually not as safe as I thought using 1Password?

dathery 2y ago
LastPass does not use the secret key concept that 1Password uses, it only uses a key derived from your password. After the breach they rushed to increase the hash iterations [1] and added features to let enterprise admins set minimum iterations [2] but of course it was too late at that point. [1] https://palant.info/2022/12/28/lastpass-breach-the-significance-of-these-password-iterations/ https://palant.info/2022/12/28/lastpass-breach-the-significa... [2] https://support.lastpass.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&bundleId=lastpass&topicId=LastPass/policy_manage_hash_password_iteration.html&_LANG=enus https://support.lastpass.com/s/document-item?language=en_US&...
- _2d30 2y ago
  Got it, thanks!
colechristensen 2y ago
I was under the impression that basically lastpass knew your password, 1password does not. Lastpass owned the whole key. With enterprise organizations though we can still reset a users password if they forget so 1password might “know” your password too. Maybe older versions or individual versions are more secure.

CaffeineLD50 2y ago

LastPass understandably finds there to be no evidence linking the two. Uhm, OK. But what's also hard to believe is that people storing millions of dollars of "collectables" would not change their passwords on at least a yearly basis. I know that password rotation for its own sake is no longer best practice, but in this case it still seems quite prudent. No?

koolba 2y ago
You can’t change the seed phrase for a derived wallet. You’d have to create a new one and transfer the assets.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  glad to see the crypto discussion here getting more nuanced and technical
- allset_ 2y ago
  Which you should absolutely do when the company storing your seed phrase gets hacked.

naet 2y ago

What do security minded people do about passwords? It seems like you either use the same password for everything, or you need some kind of password manager, but then I'm always worried about having all my passwords in one place meaning they all get compromised instead of just one. It also feels like there's a convenience tradeoff with a lot of solutions. I could keep a physical binder full of passwords in my home office but that would be a pain to look up and enter things every time (and a big risk for anyone with physical access to my place).

725686 2y ago
I use a simple algorithm. So you don't actually remember the password, put the algorithm to produce the password for the site or service. Not perfect, but each passwords turns out to be unique (mostly). I don't know what experts think about that, but it has worked fine for me.
- joshstrange 2y ago
  The problems with this method are numerous: * If 1 to N password(s) leak the pattern may be obvious leading to your other accounts being compromised * Not all sites have the same password “rules” so there is no algorithm that works for all passwords without you being aware of the rules of the given site. Rules that only you only (may) have access to at signup time. * Typing passwords out manually sucks (slow and error prone)
  - maeil 2y ago
    Numerous is greatly overstated. 1) only matters if you're a very high value target who is being manually target. Doesn't apply to 99.999% of people, who only need to worry about credential stuffing and brute force. 2) Similarly, it's not hard to come up with an algorithm that satisfies 99.9% of websites. 3) To a lot of people, managing a password manager sucks. I personally do use a password manager and automatically generated passwords, but also understand that for many people it's the better option.
  - n8m8 2y ago

JadoJodo 2y ago

I switched away from LastPass after the 2nd major security breach sometime around 2013. Wikipedia only shows 3 total incidents, but I know I've seen reporting on _at least_ 5 between 2010 and today. In that time, I've continued to run into its use at companies, and it's honestly surprised me each time. Something something fool me 5x…

yard2010 2y ago
How come this is legal? By now this is a business practice. Why would the government close down a restaurant after food poisoning but do nothing here?this is much worse, considering all this money goes to the axis countries?
- JadoJodo 2y ago
  I don't think there's anything illegal about being terrible at your job (information security), but I do think it's a tragedy that LastPass has somehow avoided the public shaming they so desperately deserve for their repeated ineptitude.

sciens3_ 2y ago

Centralizing everyone’s credentials after all these years still seems like the most risky idea ever. The only thing possibly more attractive to a hacker would be free sex and drugs, but only for a little while, and then they’d go back to trying to steal everyone’s credentials. Some other targets: everyone’s PII, info on friends, family, pets, answers to security questions, mobile IDs, PIN numbers, account numbers, signatures, photos, fingerprints, voice patterns, facial and retinal scans, gaits, DNA, mitochondrial RNA.

n8m8 2y ago
I have similar gripes, but I still feel like on balance, randomizing passwords across accounts is more important. Selfhost vaultwarden ftw (or not — don’t f*ck it up)
- sciens3_ 2y ago
  > Selfhost vaultwarden ftw (or not — don’t f*ck it up) Right. Randomizing passwords doesn’t require centralization.
  - namaria 2y ago
    Truly the chain of decisions that got us here is baffling. "Use random high entropy passwords for each account" good "Store them encrypted" great "In a computer publicly available on the internet" wat "Under an account that also handles your 2fa tokens" c'mon now!
    - commandersaki 2y ago
      If you do e2ee correctly this is a non-issue. See 1Password for one way to do to it right.
      - namaria 2y ago
        https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/1password-discloses-security-incident-linked-to-okta-breach/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/1password-dis... https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2023/12/11/android-warning-1password-dashlane-lastpass-and-others-can-leak-passwords/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2023/12/11/android-... https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-stole-this-engineers-1password-database-could-it-happen-to-you/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/hackers-stole-this-engineers-1...

nonoesp 2y ago

Sharing a short post I posted a year ago with some thoughts on password managers. ## The password-management promise > I don't buy the promise behind 1Password or LastPass. > You only need to remember one password. The last password you'd need to remember. > They don't tell you that you're also building a one-stop shop for hackers to steal it all at once. > The solution? > Store hints, not passwords. > Don't reuse passwords. Use algorithmic passwords instead. > Use passkeys and security keys. https://sketch.nono.ma/the-password-management-promise https://sketch.nono.ma/the-password-management-promise --- I've always preferred 1Password and Bitwarden to LastPass. I still prefer to encrypt sensitive data and "secure notes" with custom workflows (GPG keys, for instance) instead of relying on third parties, and even more when the data would be store in the cloud, in a centralized location. I can't imagine the nightmare of having all your secrets exposed, not just for the risk of it but for having to reset all your exposed accounts. (+1 to GPG encryption.)

dcchambers 2y ago
I used to be really skeptical of online password vaults. I thought they were an obvious Honeypot begging to be hacked. But if I understand the technology behind 1password correctly, there is literally no way for a hacker to sign into my account on a new device without having one of my other devices or my secret key (the actual 34 digit encryption key used to verify my account and set up new devices). So even if they know my 1password username and password they still can't really do anything with it. And if they steal my device, they would need to know my login password. Or cut off a finger, I guess, but I've got bigger issues if that happens. They don't all work this way, but 1Password seems to be by far the best and most secure option, and IMO the convenience of an online password vault simply outweighs the tiny risk with a proper vault like 1password. No idea why anyone has stayed with LastPass after the fiasco a couple years ago though.
- psunavy03 2y ago
  > So even if they know my 1password username and password they still can't really do anything with it. And if they steal my device, they would need to know my login password. Or cut off a finger, I guess, but I've got bigger issues if that happens. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/

mcoliver 2y ago

One thing that I don't see mentioned very often with regards to the last pass breach is that 2fa seeds for their Authenticator product were also compromised and taken. Meaning not only could the attackers gain access to passwords, if you were using last pass for 2fa they had that as well.

jongjong 2y ago

I've repeated over and over that password manager services are a horrible idea. Trusting a single service with all your passwords is worse than using the same password for all services (of the same sensitivity level) IMO. The ideal solution is to come up with a secret heuristic to come up with different passwords for different services. I kept getting downvoted for this. Well, IMO, these people deserved to be hacked. I've never been hacked, never been locked out of any accounts. I'm getting tired of being proven right about everything over and over after being downvoted. It's a very common pattern for me.

gblargg 2y ago
What if you used a password service, but modified the password it puts in manually (and didn't let it update when you log in)? Would an attacker try variations, or just move on when your password manager-provided login doesn't work?
- jongjong 2y ago
  This would probably help a little bit in terms of security but you would still depend fully on your password manager for access to various services. Personally, I don't like the dependency aspect of password managers. I hate having to log into my password manager first before I can log into the service... And I don't like having to adhere to the whims of the password manager about things like changing my password every 6 months or using certain characters... It's really none of their business to determine what level of security is appropriate for me when trying to access my Instagram account which I barely care about anyway. I'm not some billionaire with teams of hackers trying to crack into my account 24/7. I hate it when I can't use certain passwords because the password manager thinks it should contain certain characters which I simply won't remember. I hate when trying to log into LastPass with my master password and I can't remember my password and have to try like 10 permutations to find the one in the format that it forced me to use last time that it forced me to change my password. I hate getting locked out of LastPass and having to go through its 'Forgot my password' flow only to find out that the password for my email account which receives the email password reset link is also controlled by LastPass... And it's only by the grace of god that I had not trusted LastPass to generate my email password for me and I was able to guess it and didn't end up fully locked out of all my services which I need for my work. That last experience was so scary, I actually wrote down my LastPass master password on a piece of paper and put it in my desk drawers so that I would not forget it. I know this is insecure but that sort of risk profile is aligned with my current non-billionaire status. Somehow, I don't think North Korea is going to send spies to my house to peak into my desk drawers to break into my work accounts...

ginkgotree 2y ago

3 Words: 1Password. 1Password. 1Password. Ok, Im not sure "1Password," qualifies as a single world. Oh yeah, 1Password.

alfiedotwtf 2y ago
Get rid of passwords or GTFO! PAKE has been around for about 25 years, and PassKey just works! It’s 2025, and we have things like PassKey that connects to hardware devices with a challenge response rather than clear text passwords being sent to a website you THINK is the one you’re talking to.

moktonar 2y ago

SPoF again..

hayst4ck 2y ago
This is such an under-rated comment for this whole thread. This was my gut response to password vaults when they were first implemented. I still find the idea of password vaults spooky. Open source ones scare me because it seems easy to slip a compromised library. The XZ debacle can't be the only time that's been tried. All of them scare me because a bad browser extension or a more minor hack, like a trojan, could likely compromise all passwords. Games on steam sometimes have some ridiculously privileged anti-cheat software, run by who knows what company, some of which offer direct RCE, in a process that already looks into other processes memory. Virus scanners routinely analyze every single file on a computer and maybe memory too. It just seems so... possible.
- commandersaki 2y ago
  In the same league of paranoia someone could do a supply chain attack of your favourite browser engine to siphon cookies, credentials, etc.
- moktonar 2y ago
  New fear unlocked: cloudflare

yard2010 2y ago

In my opinion Karim Toubba is liable and shouldn't be allowed to have more than 69$ forever.

alwa 2y ago
I don’t totally know what this comment is attempting to communicate, but Karim Toubba apparently had been CEO for 4 months at the time of the original breach: https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/lastpass-ceo-reflects-cyberattack/652818/ https://www.cybersecuritydive.com/news/lastpass-ceo-reflects...

SpaceL10n 2y ago

Remember when LastPass first came onto the scene and everyone thought it was weak and not trustworthy? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

commandersaki 2y ago
I was recommended LastPass by Lujo Bauer a professor and security researcher that has done a lot of work in password security - but this was in its nascent start-up days circa 2013). I think worse than low iteration count on password hash, I wasn't aware for the time using LP that it didn't encrypt a lot of the metadata and that concerns me greatly. I was and still use a 96-bit passphrase, so I would've been safe from the breaches from an offline attack perspective, but metadata would've been exposed which bothers me. I switched to 1Password in 2017, so hopefully they expunged my data before the breaches, but who knows.
gruez 2y ago
Source? Were those concerns clearly articulated rather than something vague like "password managers are a single point of failure!"?

taikahessu 2y ago

Lastpass downplayed the breach and turned out they had not properly encrypted the data like notes section. They should have been sued to oblivion, but they were able weasel out of responsibility, so far. Lastpass had one job and failed it. Unforgivable that they knew their users' master passwords are not secure enough, but chose not to be vocal or proactive about it. If you're using Lastpass right now, move to more trustworthy options like 1Password, Bitwarden or Keepass. Do it today. And change all passwords, that are meaningful to you.

mock-possum 2y ago
I swapped to BitWarden a few years back and there was almost no friction - export from LastPass, import to BitWarden, get used to the inevitable handful of UI quirks, and you’re good to go.
aborsy 2y ago
1password is a good choice.
serkanh 2y ago
I have been using 1Password for the last several years and am quite happy with them, except for the fact that they basically forced users to use their cloud offering with subscription as opposed to free iCloud storage after 1Password version 7.
- bognition 2y ago
  Yes it’s annoying but it also means increased revenue which enables them to invest more in the product. The new features released since I bought version 6 has me more than satisfied. Also using a password manager is one of the most effective things you can do to protect yourself and paying a few bucks a month seems like a steal.
- rmellow 2y ago
  Yes, they felt very pushy with this & other tactics to get me to use new features. That creates distrust in me, so I swapped to BitWarden and haven't looked back.

UltraSane 2y ago

I like Bitwarden and selfhost a vaultwarden server on the cheapest instance AWS has. The server only needs to be running when I change the local database. I created a API key with only the ability to start and stop this one instance. The server is only accessible over a Tailscale tunnel so it is extremely secure. It is neat making servers available over a Tailscale tunnel because you don't have to have any open ports at all. I snapshot the instance disk to S3 when it changes. This way i can securely store my passwords on the world's most reliable storage and on my local PC.

haroldshirley55 2y ago

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mathewdaves13 2y ago

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