6 ms·

Now there are two Chinese automakers on the top list

39 points by teleforce 2y ago

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them. Where are those EU-tariff Droidekas?" - German and French automakers
- ferguess_k 2y ago
  I was sure I heard about the word "Droidekas" before...(after a few seconds) Oh yeah!
spaceman_2020 2y ago
Have no clue about Geely, but I’ve driven the BYD Seal and Sealion. Seal especially is a fantastic car. Really can’t find much wrong with it Chinese EVs seem like they’re operating a notch above the competition right now - very little in the market with the same value for money
- chii 2y ago
  My question is whether these new chinese EV makers are deliberately lowering their profit margins to push out competitors, or are they _actually_ super efficient at capital deployment and operations (as well as economies of scale) such that their value generation do come from their lowered costs compared to their western competitors.
  - spaceman_2020 2y ago
    Would assume its a bit of both. It would make sense that the country with deep expertise in manufacturing at scale AND battery tech would be able to offer EVs cheaper than the competition
  - piva00 2y ago
    Same thing should be asked about the whole American tech sector since the late 90s, the only difference being the USA had VCs throwing gobs of money for tech companies to do price dumping and capture market share while China has the State doing similarly.
  - igravious 2y ago
    this YouTube channel called “Inside Business China” by supply-chain specialist and industry analyst Kevin Walmsley has regular videos on how and why various Chinese industrial sectors are eating our lunch: “Detroit auto engineers tear down BYD's Seagull: "An extinction-level event"” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgo_wpV1ug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgo_wpV1ug is one such example. I recommend a deep dive of his vids to understand what's actually going on. Recommend watching a bunch of
  - svilen_dobrev 2y ago
    long time ago ~80ies, when japanese Hi-fi brands were going strong, some mass-public so-called "cheapish" makers , like Technics and Kenwood, were makeing cheaper and cheaper amplifiers while being still-very-good.. then one day tried their hands at the high-end - like, how it would be, if, given all the engineering constraints, price is not a constraint anymore? And they made some simply fantastic devices from that time.. so i am thinking.. if chinese EVs are better while being much cheaper, what would be if they did not have to be cheaper?
- stavros 2y ago
  I got a Seal for 40k EUR (after the subsidy), and it's a great car in general, but absolutely fantastic for that price. I don't think you can find a comparable car for anywhere near that amount of money.
- CannonSlugs 2y ago
  Geely acquired Volvo Cars around 2010, and there is certainly not much wrong with modern Volvos (aside for the regular stuff that is wrong with all modern vehicles). Given Geely's various acquisitions, it makes sense that their cars would benefit from shared technologies so I wouldn't expect their vehicles to be much worse than westerns. Seems like the main problem if you dislike China taking over the industry is that the automobile companies keep voluntarily selling their brands to them.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I've watched a pretty interesting video that highlighted not only the Chinese automakers and their explosive growth, but how quickly Volkswagen was pushed out, their market share plummeting in China since 2020 or so. They also messed up with waiting for too long to revise the computers and electronics in their cars, firing up a 1000 people strong engineering company (or was it 3000?) to rebuild car software from the ground up, naturally causing a lot of issues. But, the ID cars are doing well, the ID 4 overtaking Tesla's model 3 in popularity. And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  > And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute. At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? Maybe rich Californians. VW forgot they're a peoples' car and is trying to become a status brand for the wealthy qurky suburbanites.
  - 4ndrewl 2y ago
    idk, there's a market for expensive ICE vw buses in the UK. 60k is top-end, but the id.buzz is a niche vehicle for sure
  - dagw 2y ago
    At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? They seem to be super popular among trades people and as commercial vehicles. I have to admit I hardly ever see them in 'passenger' configuration.
  - gessha 2y ago
    I looked at pricing original pricing info for Volkswagen Microbus [1] and I adjusted it for inflation. I came up with prices in the range of 20k~30k. 60k is definitely a lot but then I remember that most sedans are in the 20k, and the Toyota Sienna is in the 40k. The pricing of the bus compared to other cars makes sense but it's still too much. It makes more sense to buy used tbh. [1] https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html [2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [3] https://www.toyota.com/sienna/ https://www.toyota.com/sienna/
bhouston 2y ago
If the US is going to tariff heavily Canada for made up reasons [1], Canada should negotiate a more free trade agreement with China. Not completely open, but significantly more open than it is now - and encourage bilateral exchanges to make up for the surplus we will have because of the US tariffs. And then instead of importing Teslas from the US we should be importing BYD and Greelys from China. Staying dependent upon the US and having prohibitive tariffs on China while we are being pummelled by the US is not smart. We should be turning away from the US in response to this behaviour. [1] https://www.cfr.org/article/how-does-fentanyl-reach-united-states https://www.cfr.org/article/how-does-fentanyl-reach-united-s... "Canada plays virtually no role in the U.S. fentanyl influx, especially compared to the other countries. The country contributes less than 1 percent to its southern neighbor’s street fentanyl supply, as both the Canadian government and data from the DEA report."
- john_texas 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - brookst 2y ago
    Even better would be for each Canadian province to become a state, bringing sanity to the US Senate and perhaps restoring the US to decency and the rule of law. But I don’t see why Canadians would be interested in hitching their wagon to a rapidly failing country that’s antagonizing them and their allies. Why get in bed with crazy when they’re doing just fine as is?
    - john_texas 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - hello_moto 2y ago
        And join US with infinity debt and in declined as well? Gosh darn that's just like two bad choices from the recent election no?
csomar 2y ago
BYD sales are up roughly 100% these couple months compared to last year: https://cnevpost.com/2025/03/01/byd-sales-feb-2025/ https://cnevpost.com/2025/03/01/byd-sales-feb-2025/ It doesn't seem that the tariffs are working.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tim333 2y ago
The Chinese are making some pretty funky cars these days. I was just reading about the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra. 1527 hp and $73k. So you can go down the shops and then pop to your local race track to try to beat the record lap time. I don't think any of the top Porsche/Ferrari/Lambos match that. Reddit discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1j2d118/xiaomi_su7_ultra_launched_1527hp_and_060_in_2s/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1j2d118/xiaomi_su7_ul... vid https://youtu.be/aQKKLMwSGHQ?t=27 https://youtu.be/aQKKLMwSGHQ?t=27

39 points by teleforce 2y ago

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them. Where are those EU-tariff Droidekas?" - German and French automakers

ferguess_k 2y ago
I was sure I heard about the word "Droidekas" before...(after a few seconds) Oh yeah!

spaceman_2020 2y ago

Have no clue about Geely, but I’ve driven the BYD Seal and Sealion. Seal especially is a fantastic car. Really can’t find much wrong with it Chinese EVs seem like they’re operating a notch above the competition right now - very little in the market with the same value for money

chii 2y ago
My question is whether these new chinese EV makers are deliberately lowering their profit margins to push out competitors, or are they _actually_ super efficient at capital deployment and operations (as well as economies of scale) such that their value generation do come from their lowered costs compared to their western competitors.
- spaceman_2020 2y ago
  Would assume its a bit of both. It would make sense that the country with deep expertise in manufacturing at scale AND battery tech would be able to offer EVs cheaper than the competition
- piva00 2y ago
  Same thing should be asked about the whole American tech sector since the late 90s, the only difference being the USA had VCs throwing gobs of money for tech companies to do price dumping and capture market share while China has the State doing similarly.
- igravious 2y ago
  this YouTube channel called “Inside Business China” by supply-chain specialist and industry analyst Kevin Walmsley has regular videos on how and why various Chinese industrial sectors are eating our lunch: “Detroit auto engineers tear down BYD's Seagull: "An extinction-level event"” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgo_wpV1ug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgo_wpV1ug is one such example. I recommend a deep dive of his vids to understand what's actually going on. Recommend watching a bunch of
- svilen_dobrev 2y ago
  long time ago ~80ies, when japanese Hi-fi brands were going strong, some mass-public so-called "cheapish" makers , like Technics and Kenwood, were makeing cheaper and cheaper amplifiers while being still-very-good.. then one day tried their hands at the high-end - like, how it would be, if, given all the engineering constraints, price is not a constraint anymore? And they made some simply fantastic devices from that time.. so i am thinking.. if chinese EVs are better while being much cheaper, what would be if they did not have to be cheaper?
stavros 2y ago
I got a Seal for 40k EUR (after the subsidy), and it's a great car in general, but absolutely fantastic for that price. I don't think you can find a comparable car for anywhere near that amount of money.
CannonSlugs 2y ago
Geely acquired Volvo Cars around 2010, and there is certainly not much wrong with modern Volvos (aside for the regular stuff that is wrong with all modern vehicles). Given Geely's various acquisitions, it makes sense that their cars would benefit from shared technologies so I wouldn't expect their vehicles to be much worse than westerns. Seems like the main problem if you dislike China taking over the industry is that the automobile companies keep voluntarily selling their brands to them.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

I've watched a pretty interesting video that highlighted not only the Chinese automakers and their explosive growth, but how quickly Volkswagen was pushed out, their market share plummeting in China since 2020 or so. They also messed up with waiting for too long to revise the computers and electronics in their cars, firing up a 1000 people strong engineering company (or was it 3000?) to rebuild car software from the ground up, naturally causing a lot of issues. But, the ID cars are doing well, the ID 4 overtaking Tesla's model 3 in popularity. And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
> And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute. At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? Maybe rich Californians. VW forgot they're a peoples' car and is trying to become a status brand for the wealthy qurky suburbanites.
- 4ndrewl 2y ago
  idk, there's a market for expensive ICE vw buses in the UK. 60k is top-end, but the id.buzz is a niche vehicle for sure
- dagw 2y ago
  At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? They seem to be super popular among trades people and as commercial vehicles. I have to admit I hardly ever see them in 'passenger' configuration.
- gessha 2y ago
  I looked at pricing original pricing info for Volkswagen Microbus [1] and I adjusted it for inflation. I came up with prices in the range of 20k~30k. 60k is definitely a lot but then I remember that most sedans are in the 20k, and the Toyota Sienna is in the 40k. The pricing of the bus compared to other cars makes sense but it's still too much. It makes more sense to buy used tbh. [1] https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html [2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [3] https://www.toyota.com/sienna/ https://www.toyota.com/sienna/

bhouston 2y ago

If the US is going to tariff heavily Canada for made up reasons [1], Canada should negotiate a more free trade agreement with China. Not completely open, but significantly more open than it is now - and encourage bilateral exchanges to make up for the surplus we will have because of the US tariffs. And then instead of importing Teslas from the US we should be importing BYD and Greelys from China. Staying dependent upon the US and having prohibitive tariffs on China while we are being pummelled by the US is not smart. We should be turning away from the US in response to this behaviour. [1] https://www.cfr.org/article/how-does-fentanyl-reach-united-states https://www.cfr.org/article/how-does-fentanyl-reach-united-s... "Canada plays virtually no role in the U.S. fentanyl influx, especially compared to the other countries. The country contributes less than 1 percent to its southern neighbor’s street fentanyl supply, as both the Canadian government and data from the DEA report."

john_texas 2y ago
[flagged]
- brookst 2y ago
  Even better would be for each Canadian province to become a state, bringing sanity to the US Senate and perhaps restoring the US to decency and the rule of law. But I don’t see why Canadians would be interested in hitching their wagon to a rapidly failing country that’s antagonizing them and their allies. Why get in bed with crazy when they’re doing just fine as is?
  - john_texas 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - hello_moto 2y ago
      And join US with infinity debt and in declined as well? Gosh darn that's just like two bad choices from the recent election no?

csomar 2y ago

BYD sales are up roughly 100% these couple months compared to last year: https://cnevpost.com/2025/03/01/byd-sales-feb-2025/ https://cnevpost.com/2025/03/01/byd-sales-feb-2025/ It doesn't seem that the tariffs are working.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tim333 2y ago

The Chinese are making some pretty funky cars these days. I was just reading about the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra. 1527 hp and $73k. So you can go down the shops and then pop to your local race track to try to beat the record lap time. I don't think any of the top Porsche/Ferrari/Lambos match that. Reddit discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1j2d118/xiaomi_su7_ultra_launched_1527hp_and_060_in_2s/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1j2d118/xiaomi_su7_ul... vid https://youtu.be/aQKKLMwSGHQ?t=27 https://youtu.be/aQKKLMwSGHQ?t=27