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You wouldn't run an ad blocker on your car... > But the problem could presage a more significant issue for future drivers. Last year, Ford filed a patent for a

You wouldn't run an ad blocker on your car... > But the problem could presage a more significant issue for future drivers. Last year, Ford filed a patent for an in-car advertising system that would use the car’s speakers and display screen to serve ads to drivers and passengers. That system would also use the car’s GPS tracker to serve ads relevant to the driver’s route. This is some Black Mirror type dystopian vision of the future for me. Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" I imagine in the future it might be impossible to buy a dumb car that doesn't have these kinds of features built into the head unit.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can, if you buy used. I know it's weird to buy a used TV, but they cost pennies on the dollar and you can get some really nice models without today's ubiquitous annoyances. Same goes for cars. If enough people refrain from buying new cars, and put in the effort to keep their older cars on the road, maybe manufacturers will take the hint.
- Retric 2y ago
  Or just modify them. People used to replace their stereo, I suspect there would be a real market for add free infotainment systems.
  - smackeyacky 2y ago
    This is already difficult on 20 year old vehicles, in the future it might be impossible. The combination of weird speaker ohm specs, CAN Bus controlled factory amplifiers, integrated vehicle information systems (where the display is across several screens) in modern cars and the abandonment of the DIN stereo size make doing aftermarket installs harder and harder. The Chinese are producing some astounding things - you can buy a drop-in centre console replacement for an older Chrysler 300C that looks factory but has a big touch screen, Carplay/Android Auto and a dongle that interfaces with the CAN bus based amplifier and steering wheel buttons. I suspect for really popular cars this will be an option, but it can't be done for every car released.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      This is already a huge issue - I actually had to pay attention to CarPlay integration because most cars the infotainment system is tied to the car itself (and not just the steering wheel controls), and you need it. Many of the car's settings can't be changed anywhere but on the "radio".
  - jmward01 2y ago
    It would be great to be able to buy a car and then delete the OS and install something I trusted on it but I can't imagine they will ever allow that. (If this is a real thing and I don't know about it please post here!) The printer world is the model I bet the car companies are all looking at WRT this approach. Litigate/claim DRM/make it hard or impossible for aftermarket/etc etc. Basically, these companies are the adversary as opposed to a partner in your driving experience.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      Not only will "they" fight you but even here on a place literally called Hacker News will people screech about how you shouldn't be able to run your own software on your own car because of safety implications or whatever
      - jmward01 2y ago
        There are places where it makes sense that only audited software should be allowed, but the big touch-screen in the middle of the vehicle isn't one of them. That shouldn't have access to safety related systems (other than reporting) so there shouldn't be a safety concern with wiping it and putting what I want on it.
        Ancapistani 2y ago
        > That shouldn't have access to safety related systems (other than reporting) so there shouldn't be a safety concern with wiping it and putting what I want on it. It does, though. My wife drive a 2019 F-150 Platinum. The only way to change the behavior of at least half of the features of that vehicle is through the infotainment system. My understanding is that it's actually running a Linux kernel under the hood - literally in this case! - but it's not exactly an open and well-documented system.
  - photonthug 2y ago
    > or just modify them Sorry but this is just not an appropriate level of outrage and reads like corporate apologism. If you go to the doctor for a broken arm, you don’t expect to get an inner ear implant whispering “wouldn’t you like a Coca Cola?” as part of the fix. Sure maybe another doctor will take it out, but it’s abusive and unnecessary, and fixing the abuse after the fact is just extra cost for the customer. In any sane world, the market would recognize that thirsty bullshit like this is a signal that the perpetrators are completely out of ideas in their field and have started grasping at tiny amounts of cash they can get by selling their customers instead of their products, rather than being in it for the long term. In other words.. all in on looting the brand value, taking the money, and exiting ASAP.
    - Retric 2y ago
      You misunderstood my point, I’m saying corporations are facing real hard limits here. My first option would be to buy some other car. However of that’s not possible, I would pay several thousand dollars and deal with a rough interior to avoid Ads that play on my cars console and speakers.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >Same goes for cars. If enough people refrain from buying new cars, and put in the effort to keep their older cars on the road, maybe manufacturers will take the hint. The opposite seems to be what happens. The manufacturers cater even harder to premium consumers who aren't in it for the long haul so you get heated subscription seats and stupid doodads that nobody needs but seem impressive on the test drive.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    They can only pull that off because used car buyers put up with it. People who buy used cars have the option of buying a non-luxury new car, but they have consistently chosen the luxury versions used. (all cars have a lot of luxury features, but the least luxury models exist and don't sell well)
- bluGill 2y ago
  For how long? Used TVs don't last forever. I just bought a new car (well 3 years old) because the transmission was going on the old one and at 240k miles the cost to fix it was more than the car was worth. Even if I had fixed it, the body was already showing signs of rust. (the new one is also a plug in hybrid which I believe over 10 years will save the difference between fixing the old one and this one - but only time will tell)
asimovfan 2y ago
I, Robot the movie was like that
bryanlarsen 2y ago
> you can't buy a "dumb TV" They are sold as monitors and digital signage displays and cost a lot more than a consumer TV.
- hammock 2y ago
  Even on aliexpress?
- rikafurude21 2y ago
  Every TV is essentially a dumb TV until you connect it to the internet. I bought a cheap TV and only use the remote to turn it on and have it connected via HDMI.
  - mikepurvis 2y ago
    I intended on using mine that way, but honestly the built in Netflix and USB stick player are decent enough. As long as your receiver does the eARC thing it should all be fine.
    - rikafurude21 2y ago
      It's always the convienent features that kill privacy. Sadly you have to put in more effort if you care about privacy at all
      - seanw444 2y ago
        Convenience and privacy are typically mutually exclusive.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    Unless it complains at you to connect it to wifi when you turn it on.
    - rikafurude21 2y ago
      I've seen higher end Samsung TVs do this, or probably most Android TVs I'd assume.
doublerabbit 2y ago
Speed will be next; subscription based. 150$ a month to enable acceleration greater than 50mph.
cultofmetatron 2y ago
> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" you can buy a computer monitor and connect it to apple tv. sure it won't be as big but it can't phone home.
- Rebelgecko 2y ago
  Some monitor brands have started pushing wifi connections. Samsung has "smart" monitors now, other manufacturers probably do too
MaxBarraclough 2y ago
> you can't buy a "dumb TV" Which is regrettable, but it's easy enough to just keep it offline. Presumably there's no such opt-out for drivers of these vehicles.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  How long until new TVs tell you that you must be connected to the internet to use them? Doesn't seem insane at all. Seems like something that's probably being brought up at product meetings at, e.g., Samsung with increasing frequency.
- mb7733 2y ago
  I bought a TCL smart tv and I was forced to connect to a network & sign in to something before I could use an external HDMI input. If there's a workaround I gave up finding it.
  - mrWiz 2y ago
    That's disappointing. A few years ago I bought a TCL smart TV specifically because it could be used a dumb TV simply by keeping it off the network and haven't regretted it one bit.
ericmay 2y ago
Car-only infrastructure which is pervasive in America is a liability to the country and the economy. I can just not buy a TV and my life is great. Probably better. I can't not buy a car except in a few select locations if I want to participate in the economy. That's both dangerous and fragile.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  That has little to do with advertising though. When you drive, you still see billboards with advertising. When you take public transit, the buses and the trains can have ads inside and outside.
  - ale42 2y ago
    Yes but you don't own the bus/train nor the road with the billboards. But supposedly, you do own the car. Do cars get cheaper by adding ads inside? Nope.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >Yes but you don't own the bus/train nor the road with the billboards. But supposedly, you do own the car As opposed to a TV that you own? You even paid for the cable subscription.
  - exe34 2y ago
    I took the bus from the airport into Istanbul, and it had a horribly bright screen in front of every seat, with flashing adverts and constantly moving - after a flight, I was already feeling nauseous. I managed to cover it with a jacket and ignore the ones further away, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
    - Marsymars 2y ago
      I’d consider a socially positive action to render those screens inoperable.
thesuitonym 2y ago
I know this wasn't your point, but Sceptre still makes dumb TVs. The real problem is finding anything to watch without ads. Hulu has already changed their terms of service to say you might still get some ads on the "ad free" tier.
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  As soon as that happens, I drop them. There’s no reality in which I pay someone money to watch ads. Absolutely not. I suppose it will be a bigger deal for folks who really enjoy TV and don’t want to miss it. But man… I can’t help but think of how much better myself and my family will be if they push me over that edge. FAFO, Hulu, FAFO.
Apofis 2y ago
This is absurd, they are attempting to turn your Car into a Cable TV set top box. Cable used to be ad free too! That's one of the biggest reasons everyone fled to Netflix.
colechristensen 2y ago
In car infotainment advertising needs to be banned at the state level, likewise much of the telemetry they send home. State legislation is good for this kind of thing. Like you cannot sell a car with this feature in the state or display such advertising while on state roads, possibly even you cannot register a car in the state with this feature.
- seanw444 2y ago
  All it'd take really is one or two of the big states banning it, and they'd be financially incentivized to disable it for all markets. That's how it seems to have gone for other things in the past.
  - quesera 2y ago
    That is probably only relevant for mechanical systems though. The software feature flag for regulatory approval is simple. Which, optimistically, might give the rest of us a vector into controlling the feature ourselves.
ge96 2y ago
I like driving sporty/sports cars and I'm not getting new stuff, so works out for me. I don't mind driving a 10+yr older car. I don't disagree it's an ahole move "why are we getting off at this exit? there is a sale nearby..."
cafard 2y ago
And then when you stop at a gas station, the pump plays ads at you.
- Marsymars 2y ago
  If all the gas stations around me started doing that, it would single-handedly get me to convert to an EV.
adamtaylor_13 2y ago
There’s going to be a lucrative aftermarket industry around removing that shit. Dystopian doesn’t even begin to describe this situation. These executives are out of their mind.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The entire automotive industry is moving to cryptographically secured software and comms. Aftermarket garages are already struggling with the burden of getting access to manufacturer docs and equipment that's officially supported.
npongratz 2y ago
> This is some Black Mirror type dystopian vision of the future for me. Indeed. I always assumed this was the impetus for FSD: these vehicles confine the most captive audience, so they will be a surveillance/advertising gold mine.
tantalor 2y ago
The charitable interpretation would be to augment/optimize ads which would otherwise be less useful. The counterfactual is not "silence". It is your radio/podcast/spotify that already have ads. You are trading ads for relevant ads.
etrautmann 2y ago
This is maybe the best way to get people to stop buying cars and look for alternative modes of transport!
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Are there any kind souls on HN with the financial resources to patent these sorts of "features" before any of these other companies do, keep anyone else from using them, and thereby spare the rest of us from 20 years of ads and tracking?
5555624 2y ago
>Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can still get Sceptre dumb TVs at Amazon and Walmart.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
My worst nightmare is a future where self driving cars become geolocked from areas for whatever reason. 'I'm sorry Dave, I can do that. You don't need to be in the neighborhood where the protest/strike is happening/drugs or other illegal things are sold/xyz reason, and police have geolocked the area from entry for the good of the public'. That will give so much power to the ruling class. I intend to keep a non-self driving car as long as possible.
franktankbank 2y ago
That shouldn't be patentable...
matty22 2y ago
Sceptre make great dumb TVs. Had one for years and have no complaints aside from the sound isn't great. But tack on a sound bar and it's been maybe my favorite TV I've ever owned. https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
averageRoyalty 2y ago
In fact there is a specific Black Mirror episode which covers this, S01E2 "Fifteen Million Merits", in which the protagonist is forced to watch advertising in his room where the walls a ceiling are screens. Closing his eyes triggers an alarm, and he must pay to dismiss the ads.
Ferret7446 2y ago
> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can, just not at a price that you would want to pay. ('tis the beauty of supply and demand)

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can, if you buy used. I know it's weird to buy a used TV, but they cost pennies on the dollar and you can get some really nice models without today's ubiquitous annoyances. Same goes for cars. If enough people refrain from buying new cars, and put in the effort to keep their older cars on the road, maybe manufacturers will take the hint.

Retric 2y ago
Or just modify them. People used to replace their stereo, I suspect there would be a real market for add free infotainment systems.
- smackeyacky 2y ago
  This is already difficult on 20 year old vehicles, in the future it might be impossible. The combination of weird speaker ohm specs, CAN Bus controlled factory amplifiers, integrated vehicle information systems (where the display is across several screens) in modern cars and the abandonment of the DIN stereo size make doing aftermarket installs harder and harder. The Chinese are producing some astounding things - you can buy a drop-in centre console replacement for an older Chrysler 300C that looks factory but has a big touch screen, Carplay/Android Auto and a dongle that interfaces with the CAN bus based amplifier and steering wheel buttons. I suspect for really popular cars this will be an option, but it can't be done for every car released.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    This is already a huge issue - I actually had to pay attention to CarPlay integration because most cars the infotainment system is tied to the car itself (and not just the steering wheel controls), and you need it. Many of the car's settings can't be changed anywhere but on the "radio".
- jmward01 2y ago
  It would be great to be able to buy a car and then delete the OS and install something I trusted on it but I can't imagine they will ever allow that. (If this is a real thing and I don't know about it please post here!) The printer world is the model I bet the car companies are all looking at WRT this approach. Litigate/claim DRM/make it hard or impossible for aftermarket/etc etc. Basically, these companies are the adversary as opposed to a partner in your driving experience.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    Not only will "they" fight you but even here on a place literally called Hacker News will people screech about how you shouldn't be able to run your own software on your own car because of safety implications or whatever
    - jmward01 2y ago
      There are places where it makes sense that only audited software should be allowed, but the big touch-screen in the middle of the vehicle isn't one of them. That shouldn't have access to safety related systems (other than reporting) so there shouldn't be a safety concern with wiping it and putting what I want on it.
      - Ancapistani 2y ago
        > That shouldn't have access to safety related systems (other than reporting) so there shouldn't be a safety concern with wiping it and putting what I want on it. It does, though. My wife drive a 2019 F-150 Platinum. The only way to change the behavior of at least half of the features of that vehicle is through the infotainment system. My understanding is that it's actually running a Linux kernel under the hood - literally in this case! - but it's not exactly an open and well-documented system.
- photonthug 2y ago
  > or just modify them Sorry but this is just not an appropriate level of outrage and reads like corporate apologism. If you go to the doctor for a broken arm, you don’t expect to get an inner ear implant whispering “wouldn’t you like a Coca Cola?” as part of the fix. Sure maybe another doctor will take it out, but it’s abusive and unnecessary, and fixing the abuse after the fact is just extra cost for the customer. In any sane world, the market would recognize that thirsty bullshit like this is a signal that the perpetrators are completely out of ideas in their field and have started grasping at tiny amounts of cash they can get by selling their customers instead of their products, rather than being in it for the long term. In other words.. all in on looting the brand value, taking the money, and exiting ASAP.
  - Retric 2y ago
    You misunderstood my point, I’m saying corporations are facing real hard limits here. My first option would be to buy some other car. However of that’s not possible, I would pay several thousand dollars and deal with a rough interior to avoid Ads that play on my cars console and speakers.
potato3732842 2y ago
>Same goes for cars. If enough people refrain from buying new cars, and put in the effort to keep their older cars on the road, maybe manufacturers will take the hint. The opposite seems to be what happens. The manufacturers cater even harder to premium consumers who aren't in it for the long haul so you get heated subscription seats and stupid doodads that nobody needs but seem impressive on the test drive.
- bluGill 2y ago
  They can only pull that off because used car buyers put up with it. People who buy used cars have the option of buying a non-luxury new car, but they have consistently chosen the luxury versions used. (all cars have a lot of luxury features, but the least luxury models exist and don't sell well)
bluGill 2y ago
For how long? Used TVs don't last forever. I just bought a new car (well 3 years old) because the transmission was going on the old one and at 240k miles the cost to fix it was more than the car was worth. Even if I had fixed it, the body was already showing signs of rust. (the new one is also a plug in hybrid which I believe over 10 years will save the difference between fixing the old one and this one - but only time will tell)

asimovfan 2y ago

I, Robot the movie was like that

bryanlarsen 2y ago

> you can't buy a "dumb TV" They are sold as monitors and digital signage displays and cost a lot more than a consumer TV.

hammock 2y ago
Even on aliexpress?
rikafurude21 2y ago
Every TV is essentially a dumb TV until you connect it to the internet. I bought a cheap TV and only use the remote to turn it on and have it connected via HDMI.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  I intended on using mine that way, but honestly the built in Netflix and USB stick player are decent enough. As long as your receiver does the eARC thing it should all be fine.
  - rikafurude21 2y ago
    It's always the convienent features that kill privacy. Sadly you have to put in more effort if you care about privacy at all
    - seanw444 2y ago
      Convenience and privacy are typically mutually exclusive.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Unless it complains at you to connect it to wifi when you turn it on.
  - rikafurude21 2y ago
    I've seen higher end Samsung TVs do this, or probably most Android TVs I'd assume.

doublerabbit 2y ago

Speed will be next; subscription based. 150$ a month to enable acceleration greater than 50mph.

cultofmetatron 2y ago

> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" you can buy a computer monitor and connect it to apple tv. sure it won't be as big but it can't phone home.

Rebelgecko 2y ago
Some monitor brands have started pushing wifi connections. Samsung has "smart" monitors now, other manufacturers probably do too

MaxBarraclough 2y ago

> you can't buy a "dumb TV" Which is regrettable, but it's easy enough to just keep it offline. Presumably there's no such opt-out for drivers of these vehicles.

karaterobot 2y ago
How long until new TVs tell you that you must be connected to the internet to use them? Doesn't seem insane at all. Seems like something that's probably being brought up at product meetings at, e.g., Samsung with increasing frequency.
mb7733 2y ago
I bought a TCL smart tv and I was forced to connect to a network & sign in to something before I could use an external HDMI input. If there's a workaround I gave up finding it.
- mrWiz 2y ago
  That's disappointing. A few years ago I bought a TCL smart TV specifically because it could be used a dumb TV simply by keeping it off the network and haven't regretted it one bit.

ericmay 2y ago

Car-only infrastructure which is pervasive in America is a liability to the country and the economy. I can just not buy a TV and my life is great. Probably better. I can't not buy a car except in a few select locations if I want to participate in the economy. That's both dangerous and fragile.

kccqzy 2y ago
That has little to do with advertising though. When you drive, you still see billboards with advertising. When you take public transit, the buses and the trains can have ads inside and outside.
- ale42 2y ago
  Yes but you don't own the bus/train nor the road with the billboards. But supposedly, you do own the car. Do cars get cheaper by adding ads inside? Nope.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Yes but you don't own the bus/train nor the road with the billboards. But supposedly, you do own the car As opposed to a TV that you own? You even paid for the cable subscription.
- exe34 2y ago
  I took the bus from the airport into Istanbul, and it had a horribly bright screen in front of every seat, with flashing adverts and constantly moving - after a flight, I was already feeling nauseous. I managed to cover it with a jacket and ignore the ones further away, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
  - Marsymars 2y ago
    I’d consider a socially positive action to render those screens inoperable.

thesuitonym 2y ago

I know this wasn't your point, but Sceptre still makes dumb TVs. The real problem is finding anything to watch without ads. Hulu has already changed their terms of service to say you might still get some ads on the "ad free" tier.

adamtaylor_13 2y ago
As soon as that happens, I drop them. There’s no reality in which I pay someone money to watch ads. Absolutely not. I suppose it will be a bigger deal for folks who really enjoy TV and don’t want to miss it. But man… I can’t help but think of how much better myself and my family will be if they push me over that edge. FAFO, Hulu, FAFO.

Apofis 2y ago

This is absurd, they are attempting to turn your Car into a Cable TV set top box. Cable used to be ad free too! That's one of the biggest reasons everyone fled to Netflix.

colechristensen 2y ago

In car infotainment advertising needs to be banned at the state level, likewise much of the telemetry they send home. State legislation is good for this kind of thing. Like you cannot sell a car with this feature in the state or display such advertising while on state roads, possibly even you cannot register a car in the state with this feature.

seanw444 2y ago
All it'd take really is one or two of the big states banning it, and they'd be financially incentivized to disable it for all markets. That's how it seems to have gone for other things in the past.
- quesera 2y ago
  That is probably only relevant for mechanical systems though. The software feature flag for regulatory approval is simple. Which, optimistically, might give the rest of us a vector into controlling the feature ourselves.

ge96 2y ago

I like driving sporty/sports cars and I'm not getting new stuff, so works out for me. I don't mind driving a 10+yr older car. I don't disagree it's an ahole move "why are we getting off at this exit? there is a sale nearby..."

cafard 2y ago

And then when you stop at a gas station, the pump plays ads at you.

Marsymars 2y ago
If all the gas stations around me started doing that, it would single-handedly get me to convert to an EV.

adamtaylor_13 2y ago

There’s going to be a lucrative aftermarket industry around removing that shit. Dystopian doesn’t even begin to describe this situation. These executives are out of their mind.

AlotOfReading 2y ago
The entire automotive industry is moving to cryptographically secured software and comms. Aftermarket garages are already struggling with the burden of getting access to manufacturer docs and equipment that's officially supported.

npongratz 2y ago

> This is some Black Mirror type dystopian vision of the future for me. Indeed. I always assumed this was the impetus for FSD: these vehicles confine the most captive audience, so they will be a surveillance/advertising gold mine.

tantalor 2y ago

The charitable interpretation would be to augment/optimize ads which would otherwise be less useful. The counterfactual is not "silence". It is your radio/podcast/spotify that already have ads. You are trading ads for relevant ads.

etrautmann 2y ago

This is maybe the best way to get people to stop buying cars and look for alternative modes of transport!

mitthrowaway2 2y ago

Are there any kind souls on HN with the financial resources to patent these sorts of "features" before any of these other companies do, keep anyone else from using them, and thereby spare the rest of us from 20 years of ads and tracking?

5555624 2y ago

>Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can still get Sceptre dumb TVs at Amazon and Walmart.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

My worst nightmare is a future where self driving cars become geolocked from areas for whatever reason. 'I'm sorry Dave, I can do that. You don't need to be in the neighborhood where the protest/strike is happening/drugs or other illegal things are sold/xyz reason, and police have geolocked the area from entry for the good of the public'. That will give so much power to the ruling class. I intend to keep a non-self driving car as long as possible.

franktankbank 2y ago

That shouldn't be patentable...

matty22 2y ago

Sceptre make great dumb TVs. Had one for years and have no complaints aside from the sound isn't great. But tack on a sound bar and it's been maybe my favorite TV I've ever owned. https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...

averageRoyalty 2y ago

In fact there is a specific Black Mirror episode which covers this, S01E2 "Fifteen Million Merits", in which the protagonist is forced to watch advertising in his room where the walls a ceiling are screens. Closing his eyes triggers an alarm, and he must pay to dismiss the ads.

Ferret7446 2y ago

> Just like nowadays you can't buy a "dumb TV" You can, just not at a price that you would want to pay. ('tis the beauty of supply and demand)