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NCSC, GCHQ, UK Gov't expunge advice to “use Apple encryption”
- martinsnow 2y agoDid the site get hugged to death?
- dizhn 2y agoworks fine for me
- marcellus23 2y agonot working for me. edit: it did load eventually after waiting for a minute or two
- bigfatkitten 2y agoYes. Here's the substance of the post: https://archive.is/YZF6r https://archive.is/YZF6r
- martinsnow 2y agoThank you
- dang 2y agoI've made a (shortened) copy of your comment and pinned it to the top of the thread. I hope that's ok with you! I just thought it's only fair for you to get the karma. (If not, let me know and I'll undo.)
- bigfatkitten 2y agoIt was fine, but I inadvertently deleted it before I saw your comment. I saw it in my comment history and thought I double-posted!
- dang 2y agoHa! I guess I'll make a new one. Sorry for the confusion...
- sarcasticfish 2y agoCould someone that understands more than a third of what was written explain what's going on?
- nickthegreek 2y agoUk Govt wanted Apple to give them backdoor keys to all accounts. Not even just UK accounts, all accounts. Apple said no and said they will remove encryption from iCloud for UK users. Apple then sued UK govt to try and get the whole thing stopped so that they dont need to remove the encryption from UK. But some parts of the govt were telling other parts to use some of the encryption features.
- Hizonner 2y agoOne part of the UK government is trying to force Apple to introduce back doors in cloud data encryption. The back doors are intended for UK government access to user data. This undermines the whole feature. Meanwhile, other parts of the UK government have been encouraging at-risk people to use the same feature, including to hide information from hostile foreign governments. The UK government as a whole has apparently realized that this is embarrassing and taken down the advice.
- dingdingdang 2y agoSurely Apple's lawyers can use this information in court - the fact that the government itself is relying on, and recommending, citizens and (presumably) intelligence assets to use Apple's encryption technology abroad makes it VERY clear that outlawing said technology will systematically weaken ALL UK information infrastructure and make it 110% easier for foreign powers to exploit and sabotage the UK as whole. edit: removed political quip since, as evidenced by sub-comments, it too easily derails from the primary discussion point, excuse-moi.
- miohtama 2y agoApple is not planning to fight for the UK citizens over encryption. It's a job for the democracy and voters.
- ohgr 2y agoWankers! Sorry that's not constructive. But that's what they are. Especially when government ministers regularly accidentally delete everything and get away with it...
- gred 2y agoMuppets! (As an American, I love UK slang. It's both familiar and exotic at the same time.)
- petecooper 2y ago>I love UK slang I recommend checking your preferred book source for Roger's Profanisaurus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger%27s_Profanisaurus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger%27s_Profanisaurus
- bigyabai 2y agoFights like this only legitimize the EU's DSA to me. UK users would not be beholden to Apple for E2EE if their clients had legitimate alternatives to the first-party iCloud service. There would be no world where Apple could even threaten to disable it. Break the walled garden down, and all of the sudden it doesn't matter what Apple's stance on E2EE is. But Apple wouldn't want that, since then you might realize they aren't the sole arbiters of online privacy.
- nkellenicki 2y agoI'm all for the DSA as well, but this argument doesn't hold water. Any sufficiently large cloud provider alternative (ie. Google, Microsoft, etc) would likely be the target of similar government instructions. In fact, I bet they already are - they just can't talk about it. And of course, it's already possible to disable iCloud backups and use a smaller provider or host your own alternatives. I already do, through Nextcloud, etc. It's not as fully integrated of course, but you bet that if it was, then the largest alternatives would be targeted all the same.
- petedoyle 2y agoIf Apple were to add new APIs, it might be possible to use personal cloud storage (NAS, Decentralized Web Nodes, etc.) with the same UX as iCloud with E2EE.
- zimpenfish 2y ago> it might be possible to use personal cloud storage [...] with E2EE Which would quickly become illegal if UKGOV is set on getting access to people's iOS backups / cloud storage / etc. Hell, it's already a legal requirement to hand over your keys if UKGOV demands them[0]. [0] "Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 part III (RIPA 3) gives the UK power to authorities to compel the disclosure of encryption keys or decryption of encrypted data by way of a Section 49 Notice." https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000/Part_III https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investig...
- mig39 2y agoMan, you know you're the baddies when you have to have "secret courts."
- ndegruchy 2y agoDidn't realize he was also talking about the US secret courts. Sorry. Uh...[1] yeah. Secret courts are the worst! Those British and their secrets! [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
- mig39 2y agoLike I said, you know you're the baddies when you have to use "secret courts."
- abtinf 2y agoA charge of hypocrisy necessarily implies you agree with the principle.
- ndegruchy 2y agoI don't. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy, not understanding that he meant it as a blanket statement for both/all countries with secret courts.
- mig39 2y agoI'm not American. But if my country had (or has) secret courts, I'd think they were evil too.
- breakingcups 2y agoWhat hypocrisy were you pointing out?
- ben_w 2y agoNot so. Hypocritical positions tell you an error exists, but not which of the two contradictory positions is the wrong one.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoRelated: Apple takes UK to court over 'backdoor' order https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43270079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43270079
- rvz 2y agoWhy would you want to live in the UK, especially under this government? Unless you want to enjoy a full surveillance state close to China? Even if you are running away from the US, you should just ignore the UK as a destination at this point.
- ajsnigrutin 2y agoMost people were born there and have nowhere to go. The problem is, that it's spreading... EU already wants "AI" to read our private messages, US and it's patriot act was not much better (+ everything within wikileaks), etc.
- blitzar 2y agoAfter decades of being surveilled by the US government and US corporations, the information sold to the highest bidder, the lowest bidder and then given away for free - it is refreshing that my country has taken an interest in me.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bigfatkitten 2y agohttps://archive.is/YZF6r https://archive.is/YZF6r
- cs02rm0 2y agoSo the question in my mind is: is the UK Government attempting to cover-up its previous advocacy of ADP, by censoring this old document? In a word, yes. I'd be fascinated to know who in the hive mind decided to do it though; I can't see someone too senior coming up with an http redirect as the answer. I guess the scrub order came down the chain and an automaton jumped into action.
- mike-the-mikado 2y agoPerhaps they know that ADP security is broken. That would justify both changing the recommendation and asking to read it.
- tweetle_beetle 2y agoInterestingly, the well respected head of the Home Office announced departure around the same time as this story breaking. There are always lots of juicy things going on in the big government departments, so connections could be made at almost any time. But the timing and quick departure does seems notable. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/matthew-rycroft-home-office-labour-civil-service-department-of-state-b2697120.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/matthew-rycr...
- blitzar 2y agoADP is no longer available in the UK. To keep the document up to date references to the thing that doesnt exist anymore were removed.
- st3fan 2y ago[flagged]
- necubi 2y agoThat's not correct. It's for people who think they might be targets of surveillance operations, like journalists and activists. > Lockdown Mode is an optional, extreme protection that’s designed for the very few individuals who, because of who they are or what they do, might be personally targeted by some of the most sophisticated digital threats. (from https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120 https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120) This is mostly useful if you run it all the time, since you generally won't know when you will be targeted.
- Aloisius 2y agoSimply turning off ADP for UK users seems like it wouldn't satisfy the UK who likely wants the keys to people's data who live outside the UK as well. So Apple either has to fight this in court, compromise security worldwide, disable iCloud worldwide or exit the UK market. The same law can arguably be used to compel Apple to backdoor phones and devices themselves as well.
- gjsman-1000 2y agoThe good news: The US Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, is fully aware of the request and has responded to a letter from Congress about it. She has stated that in her opinion, while this plays out, it would actually be possibly illegal for the UK to make this request, let alone Apple to comply with it, under the US CLOUD Act. If this is true, Apple will have no choice but to leave the UK than comply, and the UK will find themselves in a no-win situation for this demand. https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-examining-whether-uks-encryption-demand-apple-broke-data-treaty-2025-02-26/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-examining-whether-uks-... Edit: This is in addition (for better or worse, I’m just the messenger) to Trump personally calling the EU’s rules for tech unfair, JD Vance giving a speech accusing the UK and Europe at large of violating free speech, the UK’s prime minister being personally teased by Vance at their meeting about free speech (overshadowed by Zelensky’s meeting later the same day), and FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr stating the EU Digital Services Act is incompatible with American free speech values. In my opinion, this turned out to be the dumbest possible time for the UK to attempt such a move, even if it wasn’t foreseeable when the demand was issued.
- bigyabai 2y agoThat's great news, now Ron Wyden won't have to feel so lonely when congress ignores his demands to end illegal surveillance of American citizens. It'll be like a hunky-dory, bipartisan "anti-surveillance surveillance club" or something!
- vfclists 2y agoThere is too much deflection from the true purpose for these regulations. The main thing here is that if a Govt approaches a party to gain access to their encrypted data the party can stall them, destroy the data, claim amnesia or point the Govt in the direction of their lawyers. If the Govt approaches Apple or some other company, the companies don't have to inform the targets and can probably compel the companies not to inform the targets. With encryption there is even no hard evidence that the data sought exists. This is the main reason for the laws. Their purpose is to gain access to encrypted information without their target's knowledge.
- jeroenhd 2y agoThough I doubt it's the main driving force of the government, a common theme in news articles about suicides and murders is family members being upset that Apple won't give iPhone backups or unlock codes to loved ones. Grieving family members often portray Apple as uncaring and unwilling to unlock devices with a simple software update. There are plenty of people with good intentions calling for backdoors like this. I believe a good government will know the implications and ignore the pleas, but it seems there aren't that many good governments left.
- dfawcus 2y agoThere is still a picture of the front of the document available: https://archive.ph/uXyEf https://archive.ph/uXyEf
- yapyap 2y agoWe really live in the stupidest timeline
- theandrewbailey 2y agoOy! You got a loicense for that encroiption?
- eterm 2y agoSays someone from a country where the act of crossing the road is outlawed. But seriously, get some new material. Tiresome fake accents mocking another country is just childish, especially when it has nothing to do with the article in question.
- brink 2y agoIf ya ain't doin' nuffin' illegal, ya got nuffin' to 'ide, mate.
- seanw444 2y agoSoon enough you're gonna need a license to protest.
- immibis 2y agoYou already need one, and they don't exist. That is, protesting is outright illegal. Actually, that's the case in most countries already.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoI've always wondered, what happens if there's no organizers and a bunch of people just sorta independently agree to show up together somewhere and tell all their friends by word of mouth? Is the first person who tweeted "Let's all go protest!" held accountable as the organizer, or what?
- greenavocado 2y agoIn the UK they go to prison anyway. You will be arrested for praying in silence. https://www.thefp.com/p/abortion-buffer-zones-united-kingdom-free-speech-arrested-for-praying-in-her-head https://www.thefp.com/p/abortion-buffer-zones-united-kingdom... https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-woman-charged-for-silent-prayer-again https://aleteia.org/2023/03/09/pray-get-arrested-repeat-uk-w... https://reason.com/2024/10/17/british-man-convicted-of-criminal-charges-for-praying-silently-near-abortion-clinic/ https://reason.com/2024/10/17/british-man-convicted-of-crimi...
- verisimi 2y agoThe UK government should mandate http (not https) everywhere.
- botanical76 2y agoWhy bother? They can just visit Cloudflare HQ, who already proxy 19.3%[1] of the internet. AFAICT, all https traffic proxied by them is accessible to them in plaintext. Of course, Cloudflare are disallowed by law from letting us know if the UK government were surveilling all of their proxied traffic.[2] [1] according to this particular metric: https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare [2] "the IPA makes it illegal for companies to disclose the existence of such government demands." https://www.macrumors.com/2025/02/21/apple-pulls-encrypted-icloud-security-feature-uk/ https://www.macrumors.com/2025/02/21/apple-pulls-encrypted-i... IANAL
- kypro 2y agoIt surprises me I don't hear more about this in tech circles to be honest because it's something that concerns me greatly. I like Cloudflare as a product, but it seems to me they've effectively made privacy from state actors online impossible. Of course, if you cared enough you don't have to use services that use Cloudflare or other reverse proxy services, but most of the web is behind a reverse proxy these days making that difficult.
- botanical76 2y agoIt's also understandable why services opt to use a Cloudflare proxy, what with the growing threat that is DDoS attacks from large botnets. I feel we should build an extension to HTTPS to allow Cloudflare / other reverse proxy services to proxy web requests without circumventing the SSL guarantees between the user and the host. It should be trivially possible. That said, the cynical side of me worries that it works this way by design.
- smittywerben 2y agoI assumed from the headline this was about GDPR Article 32. Instead, I got tricked into reading about Apple fighting for their right to sell me another adapter to add back the features they removed for security. Edit: It appears my comment was moved from a duplicate discussion titled "UK quietly scrubs encryption advice from government websites" which linked to TechCrunch. https://techcrunch.com/2025/03/06/uk-quietly-scrubs-encryption-advice-from-government-websites/ https://techcrunch.com/2025/03/06/uk-quietly-scrubs-encrypti...
- cassianoleal 2y ago> Apple fighting for their right to sell me another adapter What adapter is that you read in the article about?
- blitzar 2y agoThe encryption dongle adaptor.
- smittywerben 2y agoMy comment was a joke connecting wiretapping (from the Investigatory Powers Act) with Apple's proprietary adapters. The parallel I was drawing: just as the UK suggests requiring licenses for encryption, Apple already charges $99/year to develop devices you own. A wire "tap" is an adapter (a tap) in the communication line. You can add one yourself at the end of the chain, but the UK also fights with Apple about their USB-C standardization, so it was also referencing the larger regulatory battle. Clearly, you didn't understand enough to respond to the joke, and it's against HN guidelines to suggest I didn't read the article. However, this topic is derailed due to The Online Safety Act. As I said, the headline was well crafted.
- GoToRO 2y agoAnd they recommend Apple instead.
- vsgherzi 2y agoUK trying to ban math...
- righthand 2y agoIt’s maths.
- giancarlostoro 2y agoDoubt this is due to security concerns and moreso being instructed to do so for political reason.
- okeuro49 2y agoThe UK border is completely porous and counter-terrorism services repeatedly fail to investigate reported threats. This isn't about improving security.
- user9999999999 2y agoI'm always curious about the digital rights erosion. The frog boiling in a pot is a pretty apt metaphor. At what point do we throw are hands up and just assume all channels of communication are compromised to the point its public.
- joelesler 2y ago"Confirmation. So the question in my mind is: is the UK Government attempting to cover-up its previous advocacy of ADP, by censoring this old document? Or does it instead want the UK legal profession to avoid use of ADP and to what end?" No, they just changed their advice/webpage. They aren't trying to "cover-up" anything. They just changed their stance in the face of current requests and laws. It's not a conspiracy.
- PenguinCoder 2y agoInteresting that these five eyes nations are backing out of intelligence sharing with the US, and also removing the advice to use Apple encryption. Does this mean the US is able to get that encrypted data in plaintext already, and was previously sharing such with these governments? Now they won't have that and need (want) to see the communications move to platforms they have readily access to.
- genewitch 2y agoUsually I'm the person that comes up this stuff like this and I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't. It does give you a little bit of pause, doesn't it?
- springwilli 2y ago[dead]