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I think this is one of those processes that the free market can’t solve unless you have extremely strict regulation. As bad as it sounds, I also think a governm

I think this is one of those processes that the free market can’t solve unless you have extremely strict regulation. As bad as it sounds, I also think a government funded partially public entity should provide this form of verification. If you remove the need to profit to be sustainable for a company like this you remove the need for growth. And if you do that, you also remove the need to find sketchy ways to exploit the data.

mikem170 2y ago
Might be a way to give the post office something useful to do. They already have offices everywhere.
- camillomiller 2y ago
  In Germany in fact we have Postident, which works fine, but is a bloated and unintuitive process and only makes sense for higher-margin and higher risk verification purposes, like opening a Bank Account.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
We aren't anon on the web and we need to get over it. Fine sites that allow minors to view porn and the free market will figure out age verification real quick.
- hooverd 2y ago
  We should be though. Also, what is porn and who gets to define what porn is?
- ETH_start 2y ago
  No. Sites shouldn't have to ID everyone that uses them. The internet shouldn't be turned into a nursery for children just because parents don't want to do their job and supervise their children while they're on the internet. If you want a curated internet that is child-appropriate, then you create your own private internet. You don't force the rest of the world to censor itself.
- itscrush 2y ago
  Why isn't your name in your profile here or why aren't you easily identified if that's the case? You're not all that identifiable here.
- rockskon 2y ago
  Just like the free market figured out cybersecurity? It ain't a magic wand that fixes all problems, buddy. Some problems just aren't possible to fix without making changes that sacrifice values core to the economy and of our culture.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    I buy alcohol, I'm age verified. The govt didn't need to build a big fancy age verification system for businesses to use, they only needed to fine businesses who sell alcohol to minors. The businesses will figure out how to be in compliance.
    - rockskon 2y ago
      A website isn't comparable to a physical storefront. What an absolute boomer thing to suggest. What tech discipline are you in? Policy? Because I have serious doubts you have any technical experience. A website is mediated by computers. Computers make copies of information that is sent to them because that is how computers work. Tech companies also like to collect and sell personal information. What do you think will happen with records of people's fetishes in the hands of companies that like to sell personal information?
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
        Physical storefronts don't collect and sell your information? > What do you think will happen with records of people's fetishes in the hands of companies that like to sell personal information? Not my problem and tangential to age verification.
        rockskon 2y ago
        > Physical storefronts don't collect and sell your information? I have no reason to believe a physical strip club would sell info of which ladies I look at to anyone with a couple of bucks. I can't say the same about websites. > Not my problem and tangential to age verification. You can't demand a solution while ignoring the cost and expect to be taken seriously.
The28thDuck 2y ago
Isn’t that what the DMV is in the US?
- pasc1878 2y ago
  Not for those who are physically unable to drive. And in countries where you need to be 17 to get a driving licence and where adulthood for many things is 16
LinuxBender 2y ago
The free market would likely go for a low friction solution. Require adult and all sites that allow anyone to upload content to add the RTA header. Make a law putting liability device/app makers to look for the RTA header and put the overall liability of enabling parental controls on the parents. App out of compliance could be pulled from the app store until compliant. Not perfect in any way but is trivial to implement. [1] Plenty of sites have already implemented it. [2] Privacy compliant, no data leakage, no sharing identities, no third parties. Server operators just add one header, done. App and device developers would have to dig up some old code that can look for a header and check parental controls. Most kids are on phones and tablets. Complete mobile in two years as phase one. Desktops four years out as phase two. That may seem like a long time but this discussion has been ongoing since 2001 at least. All the big tech companies have lobbyists. Have your lobbyists push for this and this could become a non issue in very little time. [1] - https://www.rtalabel.org/index.php?content=howtofaq#responseheader https://www.rtalabel.org/index.php?content=howtofaq#response... [2] - https://www.shodan.io/search?query=RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-RTA https://www.shodan.io/search?query=RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-R...
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Exactly, have sites merely disclose rough categorizations, move the decision-smarts to devices, and put control in the hands of the owners of those devices. This places a majority of the cost of implementation on the people who actually want to use it, avoids a creepy Orwellian surveillance system, and enforcement is moved into a physical immediate reality that the average parents can see and monitor. It also means you don't need to worry about visitors who are unmarried under the age of 16 years and three full moons who may not see unclad ankles in Elbonia.
- alwa 2y ago
  This seems like an elegant approach. Why hasn’t it gained as much traction as these third-party-ID kinds of approaches? Is it just the lack of an organized constituency? Resistance from device manufacturers/store operators? Too much control situated with individual families, so the absolutist political voices feel like it’s not pure enough? Or do they figure it’s too easy for a clever kid to bypass?
protocolture 2y ago
>I think this is one of those processes that the free market can’t solve unless you have extremely strict regulation. The free market solves it by not doing it.
- chii 2y ago
  and that is the correct solution. Verification is not required on the internet.
hansvm 2y ago
That works great, so long as you don't have any malicious actors interested in the treasure trove of data you've amassed. It's kind of like how in physical systems, if you kill all the predators in a few square km it leaves a void where any predator capable of evading your traps is able to prosper far more than you could have imagined, requiring intense efforts to actually secure whatever it is you were protecting. If you create an environment that's attractive to predators (giant pools of interconnected, personal data and a system designed around access to that data being equivalent to being the person in question), so long as there are predators you can expect them to infiltrate that system unless you apply extremely costly countermeasures. Rather than in-housing the identity verification (and allowing DOGE et all to slurp that up), I'd rather ban that sort of thing altogether and take out the private sector alternatives at the same time. If we really think that's not possible, a centralized implementation is usually preferable (e.g., why do I need to provide more information and photos to id.me than I ever did to the IRS when all I'm trying to do is access my tax data, and why do the new terms of service strongly suggest that my personal information is being used for reasons far beyond identity verification). I don't think that's required for most of the identity-related concerns I've seen the last few years though.
notTooFarGone 2y ago
100% agree. And I don't know why it is not a thing already. It's NOT a hard problem to solve. Submit the user given data to a government platform and this platform can then validate with NFC + government ID that it is indeed the correct person. It'd be such a boon for any age verification legislature in the future.
Nasrudith 2y ago
The free market isn't going to solve it, because frankly it isn't a real problem and therefore cannot be solved. It is a neuroticism on a societal level to live in fear of minors accessing 'forbidden content' that we have experimentally proven isn't really all that bad for them anyway. But it is socially unacceptable to state that the emperor is buck naked.
- kalaksi 2y ago
  Free market isn't going to solve it because there's no profit in it. Quite the opposite.

mikem170 2y ago

Might be a way to give the post office something useful to do. They already have offices everywhere.

camillomiller 2y ago
In Germany in fact we have Postident, which works fine, but is a bloated and unintuitive process and only makes sense for higher-margin and higher risk verification purposes, like opening a Bank Account.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

We aren't anon on the web and we need to get over it. Fine sites that allow minors to view porn and the free market will figure out age verification real quick.

hooverd 2y ago
We should be though. Also, what is porn and who gets to define what porn is?
ETH_start 2y ago
No. Sites shouldn't have to ID everyone that uses them. The internet shouldn't be turned into a nursery for children just because parents don't want to do their job and supervise their children while they're on the internet. If you want a curated internet that is child-appropriate, then you create your own private internet. You don't force the rest of the world to censor itself.
itscrush 2y ago
Why isn't your name in your profile here or why aren't you easily identified if that's the case? You're not all that identifiable here.
rockskon 2y ago
Just like the free market figured out cybersecurity? It ain't a magic wand that fixes all problems, buddy. Some problems just aren't possible to fix without making changes that sacrifice values core to the economy and of our culture.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  I buy alcohol, I'm age verified. The govt didn't need to build a big fancy age verification system for businesses to use, they only needed to fine businesses who sell alcohol to minors. The businesses will figure out how to be in compliance.
  - rockskon 2y ago
    A website isn't comparable to a physical storefront. What an absolute boomer thing to suggest. What tech discipline are you in? Policy? Because I have serious doubts you have any technical experience. A website is mediated by computers. Computers make copies of information that is sent to them because that is how computers work. Tech companies also like to collect and sell personal information. What do you think will happen with records of people's fetishes in the hands of companies that like to sell personal information?
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
      Physical storefronts don't collect and sell your information? > What do you think will happen with records of people's fetishes in the hands of companies that like to sell personal information? Not my problem and tangential to age verification.
      - rockskon 2y ago
        > Physical storefronts don't collect and sell your information? I have no reason to believe a physical strip club would sell info of which ladies I look at to anyone with a couple of bucks. I can't say the same about websites. > Not my problem and tangential to age verification. You can't demand a solution while ignoring the cost and expect to be taken seriously.

The28thDuck 2y ago

Isn’t that what the DMV is in the US?

pasc1878 2y ago
Not for those who are physically unable to drive. And in countries where you need to be 17 to get a driving licence and where adulthood for many things is 16

LinuxBender 2y ago

The free market would likely go for a low friction solution. Require adult and all sites that allow anyone to upload content to add the RTA header. Make a law putting liability device/app makers to look for the RTA header and put the overall liability of enabling parental controls on the parents. App out of compliance could be pulled from the app store until compliant. Not perfect in any way but is trivial to implement. [1] Plenty of sites have already implemented it. [2] Privacy compliant, no data leakage, no sharing identities, no third parties. Server operators just add one header, done. App and device developers would have to dig up some old code that can look for a header and check parental controls. Most kids are on phones and tablets. Complete mobile in two years as phase one. Desktops four years out as phase two. That may seem like a long time but this discussion has been ongoing since 2001 at least. All the big tech companies have lobbyists. Have your lobbyists push for this and this could become a non issue in very little time. [1] - https://www.rtalabel.org/index.php?content=howtofaq#responseheader https://www.rtalabel.org/index.php?content=howtofaq#response... [2] - https://www.shodan.io/search?query=RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-RTA https://www.shodan.io/search?query=RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-R...

Terr_ 2y ago
Exactly, have sites merely disclose rough categorizations, move the decision-smarts to devices, and put control in the hands of the owners of those devices. This places a majority of the cost of implementation on the people who actually want to use it, avoids a creepy Orwellian surveillance system, and enforcement is moved into a physical immediate reality that the average parents can see and monitor. It also means you don't need to worry about visitors who are unmarried under the age of 16 years and three full moons who may not see unclad ankles in Elbonia.
alwa 2y ago
This seems like an elegant approach. Why hasn’t it gained as much traction as these third-party-ID kinds of approaches? Is it just the lack of an organized constituency? Resistance from device manufacturers/store operators? Too much control situated with individual families, so the absolutist political voices feel like it’s not pure enough? Or do they figure it’s too easy for a clever kid to bypass?

protocolture 2y ago

>I think this is one of those processes that the free market can’t solve unless you have extremely strict regulation. The free market solves it by not doing it.

chii 2y ago
and that is the correct solution. Verification is not required on the internet.

hansvm 2y ago

That works great, so long as you don't have any malicious actors interested in the treasure trove of data you've amassed. It's kind of like how in physical systems, if you kill all the predators in a few square km it leaves a void where any predator capable of evading your traps is able to prosper far more than you could have imagined, requiring intense efforts to actually secure whatever it is you were protecting. If you create an environment that's attractive to predators (giant pools of interconnected, personal data and a system designed around access to that data being equivalent to being the person in question), so long as there are predators you can expect them to infiltrate that system unless you apply extremely costly countermeasures. Rather than in-housing the identity verification (and allowing DOGE et all to slurp that up), I'd rather ban that sort of thing altogether and take out the private sector alternatives at the same time. If we really think that's not possible, a centralized implementation is usually preferable (e.g., why do I need to provide more information and photos to id.me than I ever did to the IRS when all I'm trying to do is access my tax data, and why do the new terms of service strongly suggest that my personal information is being used for reasons far beyond identity verification). I don't think that's required for most of the identity-related concerns I've seen the last few years though.

notTooFarGone 2y ago

100% agree. And I don't know why it is not a thing already. It's NOT a hard problem to solve. Submit the user given data to a government platform and this platform can then validate with NFC + government ID that it is indeed the correct person. It'd be such a boon for any age verification legislature in the future.

Nasrudith 2y ago

The free market isn't going to solve it, because frankly it isn't a real problem and therefore cannot be solved. It is a neuroticism on a societal level to live in fear of minors accessing 'forbidden content' that we have experimentally proven isn't really all that bad for them anyway. But it is socially unacceptable to state that the emperor is buck naked.

kalaksi 2y ago
Free market isn't going to solve it because there's no profit in it. Quite the opposite.