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Is it a wage gap or a socialization gap? My spouse works in schools, and even in elementary school, let alone later grades, a surprising number of boys are exhi

Is it a wage gap or a socialization gap? My spouse works in schools, and even in elementary school, let alone later grades, a surprising number of boys are exhibiting a lot of sexualized anti-social behaviors and entitled attitudes. If a solid % end up basically toxic and unemployable, I'm not shocked.

stackskipton 2y ago
> a surprising number of boys are exhibiting a lot of sexualized anti-social behaviors and entitled attitudes. If a solid % end up basically toxic and unemployable, I'm not shocked. As someone totally clueless about this field, I think question is "Can we do something about this?" because writing them off isn't a great option either.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  I don't know. I continue to be surprised that there aren't more lawsuits from parents about some of the things I hear about. In general my personal opinion is that a lot of parents can't put enough personal time towards raising their kids, or refuse to (or mix of both). Like kid keeps doing stuff that by policy schools have to call about and the parents care less about what their kid is doing than that the school just stops calling them.
imtringued 2y ago
Your comment reeks of just world fallacy.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  Meaning you think they be more employable than I expect (because them not being employed would represent a just world or something else)? I mostly don't think they'll be employable because they don't seem like they can function very well, but obviously if they do end up more capable than I expect there's no reason to think that toxicity is enough to prevent accomplishment.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > I mostly don't think they'll be employable because they don't seem like they can function very well That is your bias against these boys, that isn't reality.
    - Glyptodon 2y ago
      I don't think it's bias when I'm aware of actual incidents. Obviously I could be wrong and these incidents aren't long run indicators, and obviously some proportion will likely eventually end up okay because nothing is set in stone. But when kids are doing things that would get adults jailed I don't think it's bias, though. It's more like a depressing probability.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        Many bullies go on to become leaders and get high positions, and it isn't rare for sex scandals with leaders etc. So no such things aren't really god indicators for how they do in a job market. Of course you don't want people to do that anyway, but being nice and being competent are two completely separate things.
orwin 2y ago
I used to be a youth camp counselor, my SO is in that field, my best friend is a teacher in Spain, i have a lot of acquaintance left in that field, and my father used to lead a team of counselor (weird to explain in english tbh, that' the closest translation i found). This might be more advanced in the US, because this isn't seen in elementary school in my country yet (not until 11-12 at least), but in the last 5 years at least (pre-covid) people i speak with have definitely observed this behavior among teenage boys, a sort of anti-social personna they put on and never let go (helped by phones). Bullying moved online mostly, which is a real issue in our country, because the school personnel are only taught how to spot and stop usual bullying, not the online one (spain seems to be better from what i've heard, but they do respect teaching more than us it seems, which help getting teachers who aren't total jackass). Overall, the school is worse for everyone, even in private education (public education isn't helped by spending "cuts" and 36+ children by teacher in some cases, but it seems the bullying is way, way less prevalent)
autoexec 2y ago
I'm pretty sure that whatever your spouse perceived as "anti-social behaviors and entitled attitudes" in group of elementary school children is not a reasonable indicator that men in the UK are unfit for schooling and employment. It's kind of troubling that you'd jump there from such poor evidence.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  When they're talking about 16-24 year olds, I think having familiarity with what seems to be some kind of culturally driven generational implosion that occurs and starts before working age is pertinent. The stuff I'm referring to keeps starting younger but is by no means some elementary school phase, and has been going on for at least a decade in the sense that it was starting before pandemic times and seemed accelerated but it. And I don't think the factors that lead to it are particularly bound by national borders.

stackskipton 2y ago

> a surprising number of boys are exhibiting a lot of sexualized anti-social behaviors and entitled attitudes. If a solid % end up basically toxic and unemployable, I'm not shocked. As someone totally clueless about this field, I think question is "Can we do something about this?" because writing them off isn't a great option either.

Glyptodon 2y ago
I don't know. I continue to be surprised that there aren't more lawsuits from parents about some of the things I hear about. In general my personal opinion is that a lot of parents can't put enough personal time towards raising their kids, or refuse to (or mix of both). Like kid keeps doing stuff that by policy schools have to call about and the parents care less about what their kid is doing than that the school just stops calling them.

imtringued 2y ago

Your comment reeks of just world fallacy.

Glyptodon 2y ago
Meaning you think they be more employable than I expect (because them not being employed would represent a just world or something else)? I mostly don't think they'll be employable because they don't seem like they can function very well, but obviously if they do end up more capable than I expect there's no reason to think that toxicity is enough to prevent accomplishment.
- Jensson 2y ago
  > I mostly don't think they'll be employable because they don't seem like they can function very well That is your bias against these boys, that isn't reality.
  - Glyptodon 2y ago
    I don't think it's bias when I'm aware of actual incidents. Obviously I could be wrong and these incidents aren't long run indicators, and obviously some proportion will likely eventually end up okay because nothing is set in stone. But when kids are doing things that would get adults jailed I don't think it's bias, though. It's more like a depressing probability.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Many bullies go on to become leaders and get high positions, and it isn't rare for sex scandals with leaders etc. So no such things aren't really god indicators for how they do in a job market. Of course you don't want people to do that anyway, but being nice and being competent are two completely separate things.

orwin 2y ago

I used to be a youth camp counselor, my SO is in that field, my best friend is a teacher in Spain, i have a lot of acquaintance left in that field, and my father used to lead a team of counselor (weird to explain in english tbh, that' the closest translation i found). This might be more advanced in the US, because this isn't seen in elementary school in my country yet (not until 11-12 at least), but in the last 5 years at least (pre-covid) people i speak with have definitely observed this behavior among teenage boys, a sort of anti-social personna they put on and never let go (helped by phones). Bullying moved online mostly, which is a real issue in our country, because the school personnel are only taught how to spot and stop usual bullying, not the online one (spain seems to be better from what i've heard, but they do respect teaching more than us it seems, which help getting teachers who aren't total jackass). Overall, the school is worse for everyone, even in private education (public education isn't helped by spending "cuts" and 36+ children by teacher in some cases, but it seems the bullying is way, way less prevalent)

autoexec 2y ago

I'm pretty sure that whatever your spouse perceived as "anti-social behaviors and entitled attitudes" in group of elementary school children is not a reasonable indicator that men in the UK are unfit for schooling and employment. It's kind of troubling that you'd jump there from such poor evidence.

Glyptodon 2y ago
When they're talking about 16-24 year olds, I think having familiarity with what seems to be some kind of culturally driven generational implosion that occurs and starts before working age is pertinent. The stuff I'm referring to keeps starting younger but is by no means some elementary school phase, and has been going on for at least a decade in the sense that it was starting before pandemic times and seemed accelerated but it. And I don't think the factors that lead to it are particularly bound by national borders.