4 ms·

It's odd how Linux has become the only stable thing in this world. You turn it on and you know that over time it will only become better without any bad intenti

It's odd how Linux has become the only stable thing in this world. You turn it on and you know that over time it will only become better without any bad intentions.

xtracto 2y ago
This is so important to me on this day and age. Most new technology and OS seem to have an agenda. They want to "push" me to do things: buy an iPhone, buy an office subscription , etc. Using Linux is a breath of fresh air in that respect for me. I just want my toaster tu toast bread. I don't want it to tell me what bread should I buy.
- nehal3m 2y ago
  Wouldn't want to toast unauthorized bread.
  - xattt 2y ago
    You wouldn’t steal heat from a toaster.
- jmclnx 2y ago
  >I just want my toaster I think I heard the NetBSD toaster is out of support :(
- alt227 2y ago
  But we ALL want our toasters to ask us if we want any toast
- sgarland 2y ago
  This is why I dislike Ubuntu – I don't like Snaps, and I don't want them to be considered the default.
DoingIsLearning 2y ago
Every well can be poisoned. Linux relies on people's values and people's skills. Neither of which are immune to degradation over time. Much like the post world war civil society, economic and diplomatic development was an exception in Human history. Assuming the reality we have will remain forever without protection or constant maintenance effort is dangerous.
- vednig 2y ago
  > Every well can be poisoned. Linux relies on people's values and people's skills. Neither of which are immune to degradation over time. It's rather the opposite, combined with moral stance of Linus and it's core committee itself that has managed to kept Linux on this track so far.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Linus isn't a renewable resource unfortunately.
    - znpy 2y ago
      > Linus isn't a renewable resource unfortunately. The main issue i see is that we aren't really "cultivating" the next Linuses
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    The kernel is only a small part of the overall Linux ecosystem. These days even GNU is a small part. systemd, Wayland, Xorg, PulseAudio, CUPS, KDE, Gnome, etc are all maintained outside of Linus and GNUs governance. What FOSS operating systems (and not even Linux specifically) offers is freedom to choose. But the effort of using some alternatives can be significant. So I wouldn’t say Linux is immune to having its “well poisoned” because if Linus.
    - II2II 2y ago
      > What FOSS operating systems (and not even Linux specifically) offers is freedom to choose. But the effort of using some alternatives can be significant. True. On the other hand, Linux (the kernel) does provide the foundation. You can replace most of components above it and you will still have hardware support for a wide range of hardware. Even if you were to develop an entirely new kernel, the Linux kernel can serve as a proxy for documentation for undocumented or poorly documented hardware. I realize that places a disproportionate amount of emphasis on the device drivers when the kernel offers so much more and an incredible amount of effort goes into the ecosystem outside of the kernel, but the reality is that most alternative operating systems grow beyond the academic toy phase. Part of the reason is the difficulty in attracting potential users, including developers, if those users have to use said operating system in a virtual machine.
userbinator 2y ago
Corporate interests have already seeped into Linux.
- abenga 2y ago
  Corporate interests are not bad per se, you would have to point to something nefarious that it has led to. Most people seem to think corporate interest in Linux has made it better by raising the level of investment to the extent that we can use it on most commodity hardware.
  - t43562 2y ago
    On the minus side of the equation, large controversial changes, more often outside the kernel but still important nevertheless, do get pushed through by people who are employed at important companies. If your fulltime job is Linux it does give you an ability to influence what happens that others who are earning their daily bread some other way lack. You can use that ability to ride over some objections. For some people the goal of Linux is to become the world's OS. I used to think this but I realise now that if it did, then it would become static and conformist. This is because the experience of using it would have to be stable and common so that all the users who don't care about Linux per se wouldn't have to keep relearning how to use it or at least would only need to relearn 1 way. So there would have to be the world linux distro, probably run by some bullying company that would keep app developers, hardware vendors in line. We'd be complaining about it like we might about MS or Apple. I like Linux for the wrong reason - I like it because there's so much choice. Simplicity is about eliminating choice.
    - NexRebular 2y ago
      > For some people the goal of Linux is to become the world's OS. This is extremely worrying. There already is enough linux monoculture in critical network infrastructure due every manufacturer except Juniper seemingly putting their penguin eggs into one basket. I can only hope there will be some common sense brewing for the future before linux experiences major failure and Pluto's Kiss starts to feel a bit too real for comfort.
stevekemp 2y ago
I do remember there was some point in the mid/late 90s where I had to do a lot of research before buying [desktop] computers and hardware - would this specific network card be supported? Would this graphics card work with X11? etc. Maybe it was trauma and paranoia from the WinModems of the day, that were never going to work. But by the early 2000s we seemed to switch to a world where I just assumed Linux would support my new hardware, be it a used Zip-drive, a web-cam, or whatever. These days I'm the same. I fearlessly buy random motherboards, and hardware toys, and just assume they work. So far I've been lucky, but it is a real testament to the driver-developers. The lone developer who makes one pull-request against the kernel solely to add the magic numbers to recognize yet another kind of SD-card, or similar. Really benefits us all, even if they never do another thing.
- kqr 2y ago
  Even in the mid--late '00s I had to make careful purchases of things like wifi, or be stuck manually patching and compiling half-working drivers.
  - stevekemp 2y ago
    I spent many years using 10BaseT and then later wired ethernet, which meant I avoided WiFi for the longest time. Now you reminded me that I bought a wifi dongle around 2012/2013 and ended up having to return it because I couldn't get it to work. But the very next one I bought as a replacement worked first time. So perhaps I'm having rose-tinted memories!
  - noisy_boy 2y ago
    ndiswrapper anyone?
    - nobleach 2y ago
      LinModem for me! I got my US Robotics 33.6 (with X2 software upgrade-ability) working and was so amazed. Then my dad's ISP got rid of a bunch of external serial 56k modems and I was in heaven. Those "just worked". Oddly, it was probably 6 months later that DSL started making a splash and I was trying to figure out ways to use my Alcatel USB "stingray" model with Linux. I ended up buying an external "gateway" that required me to set the MTU to 1492 instead of 1500. It screwed up my Redhat 7.2 downloads so badly. The checksum would never match so the install would always fail. Somehow I still refer to these as "the good old days".
api 2y ago
It’s the right mix of open source but with so many huge well resourced users that it’s in everyone’s interest to improve it. It’s like in this specific case the tragedy of the commons works backward. We should study the social and economic dynamics and game theory of this and try to replicate it. Someone should do a whole game theory Ph.D thesis on Linux and how it manifests an un-tragedy of the commons.
exe34 2y ago
I worry that it's a Linus thing - he still has to step in and call for order now and again. I don't know for sure if it will remain on the trajectory of always getting better when he retires.
- cnt-dracula 2y ago
  I think there was a discussion regarding this last year where linus was saying that they are already thinking of who will call shots after him so I think even though right now it's very much a linus thing, I think they are already prepared for the next person to lead it in case we ever need it
samiv 2y ago
And after every update there's something new that is broken. I suppose you mean "stable" as in "you can count on something always breaking".

It's odd how Linux has become the only stable thing in this world. You turn it on and you know that over time it will only become better without any bad intentions.

xtracto 2y ago

This is so important to me on this day and age. Most new technology and OS seem to have an agenda. They want to "push" me to do things: buy an iPhone, buy an office subscription , etc. Using Linux is a breath of fresh air in that respect for me. I just want my toaster tu toast bread. I don't want it to tell me what bread should I buy.

nehal3m 2y ago
Wouldn't want to toast unauthorized bread.
- xattt 2y ago
  You wouldn’t steal heat from a toaster.
jmclnx 2y ago
>I just want my toaster I think I heard the NetBSD toaster is out of support :(
alt227 2y ago
But we ALL want our toasters to ask us if we want any toast
sgarland 2y ago
This is why I dislike Ubuntu – I don't like Snaps, and I don't want them to be considered the default.

DoingIsLearning 2y ago

Every well can be poisoned. Linux relies on people's values and people's skills. Neither of which are immune to degradation over time. Much like the post world war civil society, economic and diplomatic development was an exception in Human history. Assuming the reality we have will remain forever without protection or constant maintenance effort is dangerous.

vednig 2y ago
> Every well can be poisoned. Linux relies on people's values and people's skills. Neither of which are immune to degradation over time. It's rather the opposite, combined with moral stance of Linus and it's core committee itself that has managed to kept Linux on this track so far.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Linus isn't a renewable resource unfortunately.
  - znpy 2y ago
    > Linus isn't a renewable resource unfortunately. The main issue i see is that we aren't really "cultivating" the next Linuses
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  The kernel is only a small part of the overall Linux ecosystem. These days even GNU is a small part. systemd, Wayland, Xorg, PulseAudio, CUPS, KDE, Gnome, etc are all maintained outside of Linus and GNUs governance. What FOSS operating systems (and not even Linux specifically) offers is freedom to choose. But the effort of using some alternatives can be significant. So I wouldn’t say Linux is immune to having its “well poisoned” because if Linus.
  - II2II 2y ago
    > What FOSS operating systems (and not even Linux specifically) offers is freedom to choose. But the effort of using some alternatives can be significant. True. On the other hand, Linux (the kernel) does provide the foundation. You can replace most of components above it and you will still have hardware support for a wide range of hardware. Even if you were to develop an entirely new kernel, the Linux kernel can serve as a proxy for documentation for undocumented or poorly documented hardware. I realize that places a disproportionate amount of emphasis on the device drivers when the kernel offers so much more and an incredible amount of effort goes into the ecosystem outside of the kernel, but the reality is that most alternative operating systems grow beyond the academic toy phase. Part of the reason is the difficulty in attracting potential users, including developers, if those users have to use said operating system in a virtual machine.

userbinator 2y ago

Corporate interests have already seeped into Linux.

abenga 2y ago
Corporate interests are not bad per se, you would have to point to something nefarious that it has led to. Most people seem to think corporate interest in Linux has made it better by raising the level of investment to the extent that we can use it on most commodity hardware.
- t43562 2y ago
  On the minus side of the equation, large controversial changes, more often outside the kernel but still important nevertheless, do get pushed through by people who are employed at important companies. If your fulltime job is Linux it does give you an ability to influence what happens that others who are earning their daily bread some other way lack. You can use that ability to ride over some objections. For some people the goal of Linux is to become the world's OS. I used to think this but I realise now that if it did, then it would become static and conformist. This is because the experience of using it would have to be stable and common so that all the users who don't care about Linux per se wouldn't have to keep relearning how to use it or at least would only need to relearn 1 way. So there would have to be the world linux distro, probably run by some bullying company that would keep app developers, hardware vendors in line. We'd be complaining about it like we might about MS or Apple. I like Linux for the wrong reason - I like it because there's so much choice. Simplicity is about eliminating choice.
  - NexRebular 2y ago
    > For some people the goal of Linux is to become the world's OS. This is extremely worrying. There already is enough linux monoculture in critical network infrastructure due every manufacturer except Juniper seemingly putting their penguin eggs into one basket. I can only hope there will be some common sense brewing for the future before linux experiences major failure and Pluto's Kiss starts to feel a bit too real for comfort.

stevekemp 2y ago

I do remember there was some point in the mid/late 90s where I had to do a lot of research before buying [desktop] computers and hardware - would this specific network card be supported? Would this graphics card work with X11? etc. Maybe it was trauma and paranoia from the WinModems of the day, that were never going to work. But by the early 2000s we seemed to switch to a world where I just assumed Linux would support my new hardware, be it a used Zip-drive, a web-cam, or whatever. These days I'm the same. I fearlessly buy random motherboards, and hardware toys, and just assume they work. So far I've been lucky, but it is a real testament to the driver-developers. The lone developer who makes one pull-request against the kernel solely to add the magic numbers to recognize yet another kind of SD-card, or similar. Really benefits us all, even if they never do another thing.

kqr 2y ago
Even in the mid--late '00s I had to make careful purchases of things like wifi, or be stuck manually patching and compiling half-working drivers.
- stevekemp 2y ago
  I spent many years using 10BaseT and then later wired ethernet, which meant I avoided WiFi for the longest time. Now you reminded me that I bought a wifi dongle around 2012/2013 and ended up having to return it because I couldn't get it to work. But the very next one I bought as a replacement worked first time. So perhaps I'm having rose-tinted memories!
- noisy_boy 2y ago
  ndiswrapper anyone?
  - nobleach 2y ago
    LinModem for me! I got my US Robotics 33.6 (with X2 software upgrade-ability) working and was so amazed. Then my dad's ISP got rid of a bunch of external serial 56k modems and I was in heaven. Those "just worked". Oddly, it was probably 6 months later that DSL started making a splash and I was trying to figure out ways to use my Alcatel USB "stingray" model with Linux. I ended up buying an external "gateway" that required me to set the MTU to 1492 instead of 1500. It screwed up my Redhat 7.2 downloads so badly. The checksum would never match so the install would always fail. Somehow I still refer to these as "the good old days".

api 2y ago

It’s the right mix of open source but with so many huge well resourced users that it’s in everyone’s interest to improve it. It’s like in this specific case the tragedy of the commons works backward. We should study the social and economic dynamics and game theory of this and try to replicate it. Someone should do a whole game theory Ph.D thesis on Linux and how it manifests an un-tragedy of the commons.

exe34 2y ago

I worry that it's a Linus thing - he still has to step in and call for order now and again. I don't know for sure if it will remain on the trajectory of always getting better when he retires.

cnt-dracula 2y ago
I think there was a discussion regarding this last year where linus was saying that they are already thinking of who will call shots after him so I think even though right now it's very much a linus thing, I think they are already prepared for the next person to lead it in case we ever need it

samiv 2y ago

And after every update there's something new that is broken. I suppose you mean "stable" as in "you can count on something always breaking".