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There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace. Many people seem to think that the US, and to a lesser extent the EU, shoul

There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace. Many people seem to think that the US, and to a lesser extent the EU, should fund this war indefinitely. However, the US clearly does not benefit from a direct war with Russia, and while we may gain from a proxy war, choosing not to fund it does not equate to “siding with Russia.”

twixfel 2y ago
The US has sided with Russia against European and Western civilisation. Don’t understate what we are witnessing. The betrayal of civilisation is almost complete.
TylerE 2y ago
When the “negotiated peace” is “Russia gets everything they want, you give us every dime and your treasury, and we don’t promise to actually help you when Russia attacks again after we let them re-arm for as long as they like”…. That isn’t a peace deal, it’s virtually unconditional surrender.
- jamiequint 2y ago
  Under what circumtances is the US allowed to pull out of a war they didn't start, which does not directly involve any US interests, in which we have already invested $110bn? Never? Not until we spend another $500bn we don't have?
  - TylerE 2y ago
    This isn’t pulling out. It’s embarassing an ally on the world stage while acting like the spoiled toddler and Putin asset that he is. This is not normal. This isn’t even bad. This is outside politics and just flat out treasonous.
  - lostdog 2y ago
    No one is arguing that the US isn't allowed to pull out. But "negotiating" a treaty with the other side and then claiming that that treaty is the final word on the war is atrocious. That's what's crazy. Not ending US involvement, but trying to say that Ukraine must stop fighting. Now, I also think the US should keep supporting Ukraine, but that's a totally different topic.
  - m4rtink 2y ago
    The USA certainly is involved, they signed the Budapest Memorandum.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    To be brutally frank, then you shouldn't have stopped Europe and the EU from building an independent military for the last few decades. Like, it's totally fine that the US wants to return to isolation, but don't expect to keep all the benefits of the post 45 world order if you do so. If I were a US citizen I'd probably be more concerned about the upcoming oil tariffs from Canada, but whatevs.
freejazz 2y ago
I think it's the characterization that Ukraine started the war that makes people feel a sentiment that is aligned with Russia.
ncallaway 2y ago
> There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace. There is absolutely no difference, when the US is negotiating that peace only with Russia, without Ukraine in the room. With Trump administration officials not able to name a single compromise they’ve asked from Russia. If the “negotiated peace” is “I asked the country that invaded you what they want, and you must do everything they asked for”, that’s not negotiation. I will never understand how people can be so quick to abandon independence nations, and are so willing to bow to dictators. You would cheer Chamberlain submitting to Hitler as he launches an invasion as a momentous day for peace. You would be wrong then, and you are wrong now.
- 1234letshaveatw 2y ago
  "stop advancing" is the compromise asked from Russia
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    They already stopped advancing 6 months ago.
    - anon291 2y ago
      Exactly... so what's the purpose of continuing the fight and killing Russian and Ukrainian men for no reason? This forum used to be a strong supporter of men's rights, but apparently these disappear once we dehumanize them via international relations. There's literally no reason for any individual Russian or Ukrainian man to die right now, since we all agree that no territory is being gained or lost.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        There are 2 important reasons. The reason for Ukrainian men to die, is to protect their families from being tortured by Russians when the Russians take another city. The reason for Russian men to die, is to not be murdered by their own officer.
snowwrestler 2y ago
Negotiated peace was what Russia and Ukraine had before, and Russia unilaterally broke it. That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far. Without those, anything negotiated is a gift to Russia, specifically the gift of time to regroup and re-arm for another attack later on. Lasting peace is not created by concessions, it is created when instigators believe they have more to lose than to gain from further violence.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  US security guarantees are probably not worth the paper they are written on.
- jamiequint 2y ago
  It is an absurd position that the US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for any war anywhere in the world forever, and if they attempt to negotiate peace while pulling out of that war that they are siding with the opposition.
  - snowwrestler 2y ago
    The problem is not that the U.S. is trying to negotiate for peace, the problem is that the administration is doing a hilariously bad job of it by giving up all leverage right off the bat.
    - aparticulate 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - anon291 2y ago
      We don't have any leverage against Russia. America has no appetite to fight them directly. If Ukraine were more effective at hurting Russia where it counts, then we might have leverage but the last few years have shown that they are not capable of that.
  - int_19h 2y ago
spacechild1 2y ago
The US has literally sided with Russia in the UN.
- etc-hosts 2y ago
  so did Israel.
mcv 2y ago
Yes, there's a difference, and what Trump is doing is clearly siding with Russia. His "negotiated peace" is neither negotiated nor peace. It's a surrender. You don't have to support Ukraine indefinitely; only until Russia stops. Your options are to support Ukraine until Russia stops, or to surrender until Russia stops.
- transcriptase 2y ago
  Are you under the impression that at some point Russia will simply say “well it was worth a try”, and retreat home?
  - mcv 2y ago
    No. Not at all. There will come a point when Russia will stop the war because either Russia is completely exhausted and on the verge of collapse, or Putin is dead or removed from power. And chances are those two will go together.
    - dev_daftly 2y ago
      If Putin is removed from power, it won't be with somebody more friendly to the west.
      - mcv 2y ago
        Depends on who does the removing. It could go a lot of different ways, but even if it's someone from his own government who is hostile to the west, they're still likely to use it as an excuse to end the war.
    - hackinthebochs 2y ago
      And you don't think Russia will escalate to tactical nukes in Ukraine before that point?
      - cvalka 2y ago
nailer 2y ago
I disagree with this post, but it’s very disheartening to see that comments that are polite and well-made are being downvoted as if they are trolls.

twixfel 2y ago

The US has sided with Russia against European and Western civilisation. Don’t understate what we are witnessing. The betrayal of civilisation is almost complete.

TylerE 2y ago

When the “negotiated peace” is “Russia gets everything they want, you give us every dime and your treasury, and we don’t promise to actually help you when Russia attacks again after we let them re-arm for as long as they like”…. That isn’t a peace deal, it’s virtually unconditional surrender.

jamiequint 2y ago
Under what circumtances is the US allowed to pull out of a war they didn't start, which does not directly involve any US interests, in which we have already invested $110bn? Never? Not until we spend another $500bn we don't have?
- TylerE 2y ago
  This isn’t pulling out. It’s embarassing an ally on the world stage while acting like the spoiled toddler and Putin asset that he is. This is not normal. This isn’t even bad. This is outside politics and just flat out treasonous.
- lostdog 2y ago
  No one is arguing that the US isn't allowed to pull out. But "negotiating" a treaty with the other side and then claiming that that treaty is the final word on the war is atrocious. That's what's crazy. Not ending US involvement, but trying to say that Ukraine must stop fighting. Now, I also think the US should keep supporting Ukraine, but that's a totally different topic.
- m4rtink 2y ago
  The USA certainly is involved, they signed the Budapest Memorandum.
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  To be brutally frank, then you shouldn't have stopped Europe and the EU from building an independent military for the last few decades. Like, it's totally fine that the US wants to return to isolation, but don't expect to keep all the benefits of the post 45 world order if you do so. If I were a US citizen I'd probably be more concerned about the upcoming oil tariffs from Canada, but whatevs.

freejazz 2y ago

I think it's the characterization that Ukraine started the war that makes people feel a sentiment that is aligned with Russia.

ncallaway 2y ago

> There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace. There is absolutely no difference, when the US is negotiating that peace only with Russia, without Ukraine in the room. With Trump administration officials not able to name a single compromise they’ve asked from Russia. If the “negotiated peace” is “I asked the country that invaded you what they want, and you must do everything they asked for”, that’s not negotiation. I will never understand how people can be so quick to abandon independence nations, and are so willing to bow to dictators. You would cheer Chamberlain submitting to Hitler as he launches an invasion as a momentous day for peace. You would be wrong then, and you are wrong now.

1234letshaveatw 2y ago
"stop advancing" is the compromise asked from Russia
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  They already stopped advancing 6 months ago.
  - anon291 2y ago
    Exactly... so what's the purpose of continuing the fight and killing Russian and Ukrainian men for no reason? This forum used to be a strong supporter of men's rights, but apparently these disappear once we dehumanize them via international relations. There's literally no reason for any individual Russian or Ukrainian man to die right now, since we all agree that no territory is being gained or lost.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      There are 2 important reasons. The reason for Ukrainian men to die, is to protect their families from being tortured by Russians when the Russians take another city. The reason for Russian men to die, is to not be murdered by their own officer.

snowwrestler 2y ago

Negotiated peace was what Russia and Ukraine had before, and Russia unilaterally broke it. That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far. Without those, anything negotiated is a gift to Russia, specifically the gift of time to regroup and re-arm for another attack later on. Lasting peace is not created by concessions, it is created when instigators believe they have more to lose than to gain from further violence.

theGnuMe 2y ago
US security guarantees are probably not worth the paper they are written on.
jamiequint 2y ago
It is an absurd position that the US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for any war anywhere in the world forever, and if they attempt to negotiate peace while pulling out of that war that they are siding with the opposition.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  The problem is not that the U.S. is trying to negotiate for peace, the problem is that the administration is doing a hilariously bad job of it by giving up all leverage right off the bat.
  - aparticulate 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - anon291 2y ago
    We don't have any leverage against Russia. America has no appetite to fight them directly. If Ukraine were more effective at hurting Russia where it counts, then we might have leverage but the last few years have shown that they are not capable of that.
- int_19h 2y ago

spacechild1 2y ago

The US has literally sided with Russia in the UN.

etc-hosts 2y ago
so did Israel.

mcv 2y ago

Yes, there's a difference, and what Trump is doing is clearly siding with Russia. His "negotiated peace" is neither negotiated nor peace. It's a surrender. You don't have to support Ukraine indefinitely; only until Russia stops. Your options are to support Ukraine until Russia stops, or to surrender until Russia stops.

transcriptase 2y ago
Are you under the impression that at some point Russia will simply say “well it was worth a try”, and retreat home?
- mcv 2y ago
  No. Not at all. There will come a point when Russia will stop the war because either Russia is completely exhausted and on the verge of collapse, or Putin is dead or removed from power. And chances are those two will go together.
  - dev_daftly 2y ago
    If Putin is removed from power, it won't be with somebody more friendly to the west.
    - mcv 2y ago
      Depends on who does the removing. It could go a lot of different ways, but even if it's someone from his own government who is hostile to the west, they're still likely to use it as an excuse to end the war.
  - hackinthebochs 2y ago
    And you don't think Russia will escalate to tactical nukes in Ukraine before that point?
    - cvalka 2y ago

nailer 2y ago

I disagree with this post, but it’s very disheartening to see that comments that are polite and well-made are being downvoted as if they are trolls.