7 ms·

I'm starting to suspect my work is incompatible with a full-time academic job

75 points by luu 2y ago

squiffsquiff 2y ago
[flagged]
zusammen 2y ago
I’m an aging (60s) academic and I’ve found that the old assumption of our world offering a “life of ideas” that any talented person would want is no longer true. If you’re coming in now or came in in the past 30 years, it’s liters just a job. Not necessarily a bad job, but certainly not a calling. The tenure system is necessary for it to function, because wages are so low relative to skill level and the job market is so unreliable, but it also makes things worse because the old hands mostly don’t fight evil changes (and there have been tons of evil changes recently) of only the young will be affected. Of course, the current state of the US government and the rising anti intellectualism don’t help.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Presumably in the absence of tenure wages would have to increase.
  - borroka 2y ago
    Unlikely, given the 10/50 to 1 demand/supply ratio. The very top people are workaholics and true believers, so it is unlikely that the absence of the institution of tenure would affect their choices. For mid-quality people, there is an overabundance of researchers who would get that job, tenure or no-tenure, for a piece of chocolate.
    - p4ul 2y ago
      I agree, but with one amendment: most tenure-track roles in the US will have 50 to 200 applicants for a single position. Over the last few decades, tenure lines have decreased while PhD admissions have not. Adjuncts do so much of the teaching at all kinds of institutions these days.
      - borroka 2y ago
        It is true, but I was referring to suitable candidates. I had what I believe was a very good CV (prestigious fellowships, a meaty publication list in some top 10% disciplinary journals), and I had exactly zero invitations to interview over more than 5 years of applying to tt jobs.
    - irchans 2y ago
      What kind of chocolate ? :) (humor)
    - pc86 2y ago
      Yes but if you remove the "last long enough and you'll have a job for life and your kids get college degrees for free" carrot how many of those people who want the job now no longer will?
      - borroka 2y ago
        Plenty. Anybody who has been in academia sees the institution as cultish. Nobody wants a tenure track job because their kids will go to college for free and give up other work opportunities for that carrot. The last problem academia will have is not enough people applying to tenure track jobs.
        pc86 2y ago
        > Anybody who has been in academia sees the institution as cultish. Anybody? I'm sure this is not the case. > Nobody wants a tenure track job because their kids will go to college for free and give up other work opportunities for that carrot. You conveniently left out the job for life part which is a huge part of why most professors want a TT job. There are other bonuses of course but "can't be fired" is a pretty sweet gig if you can get it. Hence the couple hundred applications for every open TT role. > The last problem academia will have is not enough people applying to tenure track jobs. Well we're talking about what would happen if there was no tenure track so I guess this is pedantically true. But I'm not saying we'll suddenly have open professorial roles with no applicants, I'm saying maybe without tenure as a carrot we'll go from 200 applicants for each job to something more reasonable like 30-50.
        zusammen 2y ago
        You conveniently left out the job for life part which is a huge part of why most professors want a TT job. Also, age makes you better at doing jobs but worse at getting them. You do not want to be on the open labor market after 50, especially if you’re specialized and probably (possibly undiagnosed) neurodivergent.
        pc86 2y ago
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Yeah it seems to me like academia is dead in basically every sense. Not just internally as you describe but also in the culture. People just don’t value learning anymore, the romantic image is fading. And now there’s no distinction being academia and industry in the sense that even vocations need a degree now, most people have an experience of university that is far removed from traditional academia, again giving it a pure economic focus. We’ll see what happens but I do feel like the last 20 years has seen a steep decline in the cultural value of academia, and as you point out, a strong professionalising of academia
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > the old hands mostly don’t fight evil changes (and there have been tons of evil changes recently) Can you elaborate?
  - zusammen 2y ago
    [dead]
josefritzishere 2y ago
You sir are having a mid-life crisis. You may need to change your career but do not give in to the urge to buy a sports car. It won't fix your career aspirations nor make you any younger.
- stonogo 2y ago
  Absolutely buy a sports car, regardless of age, if that's something you're into. It won't fix anything structurally wrong with your life but you're definitely allowed to have fun.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    Would strongly suggest renting one first. The fun might last for some; it didn't for me (thankfully, I found this out while renting).
    - RandomBacon 2y ago
      I'm not a car expert, but it seems like the really fun ones require a lot of expensive maintenance. I imagine it wouldn't be hard to rent them for the day/weekend from people who did buy them, but can't really afford them.
      - radley 2y ago
        The "really fun ones" can often be pretty limited. How often do you need to go 0 to 60 super quick? Particularly when a Tesla minivan can do it faster? If you really want to try them, consider joining a car club. I found a "fun enough one" worked best for me, because it can be a daily driver.
        RandomBacon 2y ago
        fun ≠ utility I imagine part of the fun is probably also seeing, hearing, and feeling something different. And maybe trying to grab others' attentions. I'm just speculating, because I don't care for fancy or "fun" cars.
almosthere 2y ago
This kind of thing is blowing up all over the place, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg
- voxl 2y ago
  Sabine has a chip on her shoulder about academia and simultaneously she gets the most rewarded for feeding into the anti academic narrative. That also plays well on HN where there is a cohort of people that like to pretend a PhD is useless and that PhD holders are less intelligent than themselves.
  - barbazoo 2y ago
    Do you have a more specific criticism about the "chip on her shoulder" and how "gets the most rewarded for feeding into the anti academic narrative"?
    - voxl 2y ago
      The criticism is pretty specific: she has an axe to grind about string theory holding back fundamental physics and projects this onto all of science. One need only watch her videos to notice this. Another simple observation: her rant videos receive millions of views while her others receive significantly less. It doesn't take much speculation to see that an intelligent person that genuinely believes her own rant would prefer the output that also gives the most financial rewards
      - dingnuts 2y ago
        [flagged]
        voxl 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - eitally 2y ago
jpeloquin 2y ago
> Well, obviously the part-time thing will bring a reduction in my institutional teaching and admin duties. I have to say there is uncertainty about how much relief will arise in practice As someone who has tried something similar, institutional bureaucracy expands to fill all available time. People engaging in bureaucratic empire-building will still happily consume your personal unpaid time. And splitting attention between multiple lines of work creates some legitimate additional overhead, which doesn't help. I'm not sure what the winning strategy is. I think it is necessary to either get out entirely or play the bureaucrats' "system-game" to some degree, but not on their terms and not fairly. When the bureaucracy demands useless work, maximize their costs and minimize yours. Many academics constitutively cannot make themselves do a lazy, poor job, but is a useful skill to deploy defensively so that you can fulfill your education and research responsibilities. Often you'll find that the bureaucracy only cares about the superficial appearance of compliance; the actual actions performed are irrelevant to them. Shift responsibility to some other part of the bureaucracy and use LLMs to generate boilerplate. If the bureaucracy never attempts to punish you in any way, that may indicate you're being more compliant than necessary. This approach is safest if your retirement plan is fully funded and you don't truly need to keep the job. It is also helpful if at some part of what you do is visibly important to someone who does have power; this helps deflect consequences when you accidentally step a over a line. Everything depends on context and execution though; I hope the part-time approach works out for you.
- squigz 2y ago
  How do you determine what amount of bureaucracy is acceptable to do?
  - chii 2y ago
    just enough to get yelled at, but not enough to get fired. Be an annoyance to deal with, by towing the line.
    - squigz 2y ago
      Seems like a reasonable metric that isn't based on simple gut reactions to anything.
nsagent 2y ago
As a postdoc with a background in NLP, I've come to the same conclusion. I feel like I'm stagnating in academia and have decided to quit my postdoc and self fund research that I can hopefully monetize in the future. It certainly doesn't help that the pay is atrocious — I make less in inflation adjusted dollars than my first job straight out of school nearly 20yrs ago, in a higher cost of living place.
_gotb 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  Ok, but please don't fulminate on Hacker News. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
rurban 2y ago
I liked my teaching assignments, because I could talk to a lot of users/students. Talking to users is always the best. But I didn't have to worry about writing min. 2 papers a year. I only did some nice conferences. And I could easily work on the side.

75 points by luu 2y ago

[flagged]

I’m an aging (60s) academic and I’ve found that the old assumption of our world offering a “life of ideas” that any talented person would want is no longer true. If you’re coming in now or came in in the past 30 years, it’s liters just a job. Not necessarily a bad job, but certainly not a calling. The tenure system is necessary for it to function, because wages are so low relative to skill level and the job market is so unreliable, but it also makes things worse because the old hands mostly don’t fight evil changes (and there have been tons of evil changes recently) of only the young will be affected. Of course, the current state of the US government and the rising anti intellectualism don’t help.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago
Presumably in the absence of tenure wages would have to increase.
- borroka 2y ago
  Unlikely, given the 10/50 to 1 demand/supply ratio. The very top people are workaholics and true believers, so it is unlikely that the absence of the institution of tenure would affect their choices. For mid-quality people, there is an overabundance of researchers who would get that job, tenure or no-tenure, for a piece of chocolate.
  - p4ul 2y ago
    I agree, but with one amendment: most tenure-track roles in the US will have 50 to 200 applicants for a single position. Over the last few decades, tenure lines have decreased while PhD admissions have not. Adjuncts do so much of the teaching at all kinds of institutions these days.
    - borroka 2y ago
      It is true, but I was referring to suitable candidates. I had what I believe was a very good CV (prestigious fellowships, a meaty publication list in some top 10% disciplinary journals), and I had exactly zero invitations to interview over more than 5 years of applying to tt jobs.
  - irchans 2y ago
    What kind of chocolate ? :) (humor)
  - pc86 2y ago
    Yes but if you remove the "last long enough and you'll have a job for life and your kids get college degrees for free" carrot how many of those people who want the job now no longer will?
    - borroka 2y ago
      Plenty. Anybody who has been in academia sees the institution as cultish. Nobody wants a tenure track job because their kids will go to college for free and give up other work opportunities for that carrot. The last problem academia will have is not enough people applying to tenure track jobs.
      - pc86 2y ago
        > Anybody who has been in academia sees the institution as cultish. Anybody? I'm sure this is not the case. > Nobody wants a tenure track job because their kids will go to college for free and give up other work opportunities for that carrot. You conveniently left out the job for life part which is a huge part of why most professors want a TT job. There are other bonuses of course but "can't be fired" is a pretty sweet gig if you can get it. Hence the couple hundred applications for every open TT role. > The last problem academia will have is not enough people applying to tenure track jobs. Well we're talking about what would happen if there was no tenure track so I guess this is pedantically true. But I'm not saying we'll suddenly have open professorial roles with no applicants, I'm saying maybe without tenure as a carrot we'll go from 200 applicants for each job to something more reasonable like 30-50.
        zusammen 2y ago
        You conveniently left out the job for life part which is a huge part of why most professors want a TT job. Also, age makes you better at doing jobs but worse at getting them. You do not want to be on the open labor market after 50, especially if you’re specialized and probably (possibly undiagnosed) neurodivergent.
        pc86 2y ago
bowsamic 2y ago
Yeah it seems to me like academia is dead in basically every sense. Not just internally as you describe but also in the culture. People just don’t value learning anymore, the romantic image is fading. And now there’s no distinction being academia and industry in the sense that even vocations need a degree now, most people have an experience of university that is far removed from traditional academia, again giving it a pure economic focus. We’ll see what happens but I do feel like the last 20 years has seen a steep decline in the cultural value of academia, and as you point out, a strong professionalising of academia
like_any_other 2y ago
> the old hands mostly don’t fight evil changes (and there have been tons of evil changes recently) Can you elaborate?
- zusammen 2y ago
  [dead]

josefritzishere 2y ago

You sir are having a mid-life crisis. You may need to change your career but do not give in to the urge to buy a sports car. It won't fix your career aspirations nor make you any younger.

stonogo 2y ago
Absolutely buy a sports car, regardless of age, if that's something you're into. It won't fix anything structurally wrong with your life but you're definitely allowed to have fun.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  Would strongly suggest renting one first. The fun might last for some; it didn't for me (thankfully, I found this out while renting).
  - RandomBacon 2y ago
    I'm not a car expert, but it seems like the really fun ones require a lot of expensive maintenance. I imagine it wouldn't be hard to rent them for the day/weekend from people who did buy them, but can't really afford them.
    - radley 2y ago
      The "really fun ones" can often be pretty limited. How often do you need to go 0 to 60 super quick? Particularly when a Tesla minivan can do it faster? If you really want to try them, consider joining a car club. I found a "fun enough one" worked best for me, because it can be a daily driver.
      - RandomBacon 2y ago
        fun ≠ utility I imagine part of the fun is probably also seeing, hearing, and feeling something different. And maybe trying to grab others' attentions. I'm just speculating, because I don't care for fancy or "fun" cars.

almosthere 2y ago

This kind of thing is blowing up all over the place, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg

voxl 2y ago
Sabine has a chip on her shoulder about academia and simultaneously she gets the most rewarded for feeding into the anti academic narrative. That also plays well on HN where there is a cohort of people that like to pretend a PhD is useless and that PhD holders are less intelligent than themselves.
- barbazoo 2y ago
  Do you have a more specific criticism about the "chip on her shoulder" and how "gets the most rewarded for feeding into the anti academic narrative"?
  - voxl 2y ago
    The criticism is pretty specific: she has an axe to grind about string theory holding back fundamental physics and projects this onto all of science. One need only watch her videos to notice this. Another simple observation: her rant videos receive millions of views while her others receive significantly less. It doesn't take much speculation to see that an intelligent person that genuinely believes her own rant would prefer the output that also gives the most financial rewards
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - voxl 2y ago
        [flagged]
- eitally 2y ago

jpeloquin 2y ago

> Well, obviously the part-time thing will bring a reduction in my institutional teaching and admin duties. I have to say there is uncertainty about how much relief will arise in practice As someone who has tried something similar, institutional bureaucracy expands to fill all available time. People engaging in bureaucratic empire-building will still happily consume your personal unpaid time. And splitting attention between multiple lines of work creates some legitimate additional overhead, which doesn't help. I'm not sure what the winning strategy is. I think it is necessary to either get out entirely or play the bureaucrats' "system-game" to some degree, but not on their terms and not fairly. When the bureaucracy demands useless work, maximize their costs and minimize yours. Many academics constitutively cannot make themselves do a lazy, poor job, but is a useful skill to deploy defensively so that you can fulfill your education and research responsibilities. Often you'll find that the bureaucracy only cares about the superficial appearance of compliance; the actual actions performed are irrelevant to them. Shift responsibility to some other part of the bureaucracy and use LLMs to generate boilerplate. If the bureaucracy never attempts to punish you in any way, that may indicate you're being more compliant than necessary. This approach is safest if your retirement plan is fully funded and you don't truly need to keep the job. It is also helpful if at some part of what you do is visibly important to someone who does have power; this helps deflect consequences when you accidentally step a over a line. Everything depends on context and execution though; I hope the part-time approach works out for you.

squigz 2y ago
How do you determine what amount of bureaucracy is acceptable to do?
- chii 2y ago
  just enough to get yelled at, but not enough to get fired. Be an annoyance to deal with, by towing the line.
  - squigz 2y ago
    Seems like a reasonable metric that isn't based on simple gut reactions to anything.

nsagent 2y ago

As a postdoc with a background in NLP, I've come to the same conclusion. I feel like I'm stagnating in academia and have decided to quit my postdoc and self fund research that I can hopefully monetize in the future. It certainly doesn't help that the pay is atrocious — I make less in inflation adjusted dollars than my first job straight out of school nearly 20yrs ago, in a higher cost of living place.

_gotb 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago
Ok, but please don't fulminate on Hacker News. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

rurban 2y ago

I liked my teaching assignments, because I could talk to a lot of users/students. Talking to users is always the best. But I didn't have to worry about writing min. 2 papers a year. I only did some nice conferences. And I could easily work on the side.