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US court upholds Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes's conviction
- ChocolateGod 2y agoI don't quite understand the reasoning for putting her in prison. Yes, she deserves to be punished, but surely house arrest, community service etc makes more sense for a crime of this nature, rather than using tax payer money to house her for 9 years when she isn't a credible threat to society.
- regularjack 2y agoPeople could have died, or maybe did.
- xnx 2y agoDeterrent to future like-minded scumbags.
- redeux 2y agoBut there’s no clear evidence that lengthy prison sentences act as a deterrent. https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18613/chapter/7#135 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18613/chapter/7#135
- atkailash 2y agoThat study doesn’t focus on people who are used to caviar and champagne as a normal thing versus an out of reach dream. These bourgeoisie think they’re untouchable, and largely are, so the threat of this is the only deterrent we have short of a Place de la Concorde situation
- jack_pp 2y agoExactly. The more you have to lose the worst you have it in prison. If you already live in hell outside of prison then prison won't feel that bad. Could even feel better because it's like a dopamine detox. I'm talking here about prison not like it is depicted in Hollywood, with rape and no protection from assault. I'm talking about prison as it should be, enforcing a near monastic lifestyle where the detained has no distractions from their own conscience and can contemplate their predicament
- blitzar 2y agoDoesn't seem to deter YC calling them the 2025 intake.
- gcnnbdff 2y ago[dead]
- wizardforhire 2y agoShe stole from billionaires. If she had stolen from poor people or the government she’d be lauded as a hero.
- cft 2y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 2y agoI get that people think there’s some “deep state”, but including WSJ reporters is a new expansion. Can you define “state” for me here? I don’t think we’re using the same definitions.
- cft 2y agoI cannot fit the full answer in a reply here, but the deep state in this sense is the same as the Managerial State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state , presented in such books as After Liberalism https://archive.org/details/afterliberalism00paul https://archive.org/details/afterliberalism00paul or Nomenklatura https://archive.org/details/nomenklaturasovi0000vosl_l7v8 https://archive.org/details/nomenklaturasovi0000vosl_l7v8
- ceejayoz 2y agoBut the WSJ is an independent, for-profit newspaper. It's not part of the "state" at all.
- Mistletoe 2y agoWe need stronger punishments for our robber barons, not weaker. We are witnessing the society we experience when they are not kept in check and it is the worst humanity has to offer.
- mherkender 2y agoYou could probably say the same thing about tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in prison.
- BoxFour 2y agoI’m not someone who wants prison purely as a punitive measure. I’d much rather the focus be on rehabilitation. But you’re making it sound like Elizabeth Holmes was accused of something relatively "harmless" like insider trading, rather than what she actually did. A small sample from Wikipedia: > In January 2016, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) sent a letter to Theranos based on a 2015 inspection of its Newark, California lab, reporting that the facility caused "immediate jeopardy to patient health and safety" due to a test to determine the correct dose of the blood-thinning drug warfarin
- blendergeek 2y agoShe was not convicted of crimes against patients. She was only convicted of crimes against investors.
- BoxFour 2y agoI’m aware, and Al Capone was busted for taxes. I’m still content with his conviction and punishment.
- blitzar 2y agoIt seems cruel and unkind to punish someone for a crime they were tried for and found not guilty (on all counts) of.
- BoxFour 2y agoTrue, poor Al Capone!
- afthonos 2y agoSadly this is an explicit allowance of the justice system. :-/ There was a case about it, though I don’t have the reference handy.
- jajko 2y agoWhat is this, army of accounts for hire to sway sympathies like its election times? Most people in prisons, especially US prisons, are not anyhow threat to society. That 1 or 2 joints that got people in bible belt states for solid 2 years is one example. If you are questioning basis of basically every law system in place anywhere in the world, thats a fine discussion but please frame it like that. She is a criminal, fraud, liar, thief and god knows what else, in range of hundreds of millions. Jail for her, a long one, no special sympathy for nepo kids. Sort of litmus paper of whether US justice system still works as intended.
- makoto12 2y agoIf threat to society is the only purpose to put someone behind bars, then a large swathe of the incarcerated population wouldn't be behind bars. You could make the same argument for Bernie Madoff, who probably isn't a danger to society considering his fraud is out in the open.
- Jgrubb 2y ago..And that he passed away in 2021.
- MissTake 2y ago> You could make the same argument for Bernie Madoff, who probably isn't a danger to society considering his fraud is out in the open. Pretty sure Madoff isn’t currently a danger to society because he’s been dead for almost 4 years now.
- bitshiftfaced 2y agoPretty superficial way to not address GP's underlying point, which makes sense whether or not Madoff died.
- makoto12 2y agoi'm actually quite happy that he died without me noticing
- Spooky23 2y agoShe made alot of powerful people look foolish. The nature of how the people around her exploited her also makes her a great candidate for being made an example. She has no friends to explain away her crimes, which were significant — this isn’t a Martha Stewart scenario.
- abcd_f 2y agoIn good part it serves as a deterrent for others, given that the US legal system is precedent-based.
- IsTom 2y agoIt makes sense to prevent her from talking to people who might try to pull another similar stunt.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- briandear 2y agoShe is a credible threat of defrauding more people.
- blitzar 2y agoIf you invest in her next startup you are waiving your right to cry foul in the eveny you lose your money.
- DanielHB 2y agoShould bankers who caused the 2008 financial crisis also be on home arrest? Sometimes it is about punishment not rehabilitation.
- Clubber 2y agoJoke's on you, bankers didn't serve any jail time for 2008. Having said that, I agree 9 years seems extensive. We're just accustomed to these long prison terms. I would have thought 2-3 years plus fines, maybe 5. The US has the largest prison population in the world both by capita and in total numbers. This is an indication that something is horribly wrong.
- monadINtop 2y agothe joke's on all of us as long as we continue letting them get away
- pjc50 2y agoWho did things that were illegal at the time? (very few people should have gone to prison, but Sean Quinn did for Anglo-Irish Bank, and everyone involved in the US robo-signing fiasco should have at least got a conviction and ban from positions of trust)
- atkailash 2y ago[dead]
- mpalmer 2y agoPrison isn't just punishment, it's a deterrent to future criminals. If white collar criminals got to chill at home for few years, do you think we would have end up with more victims of fraud, or fewer?
- anilakar 2y agoIt's a really terrible deterrent because people are not rational actors. That said, I'm all for jailing her as long as non-white-collar criminals are getting the same treatment. Edit: This seems to be a controversial opinion as this comment's score is continuously going up and down.
- jfengel 2y agoGiven our vast prison population, perhaps it's not such an effective deterrent.
- ghfhghg 2y agoOur vast population of white collar criminals?
- pjc50 2y agoThe US has a lot of people in prison for non-violent offences. It even has a huge number of people in pre-trial detention, where other countries have better bail systems and things like electronic tagging to allow people to stay out of jail before they are convicted.
- mpalmer 2y agoNon-violent != white collar
- acdha 2y agoI think you’d find a lot of support for the idea that we should have fewer people total in jail (i.e. funneling drug users into medical care, use community service for non-violent property crimes, etc.) but more white collar criminals going to jail. As a simple example, I’ve heard a lot of people of all ages comment that the bankers would repeat the kinds of crimes they committed during the mortgage bubble because they made more profits than they were fined. Jail time is far more plausibly a deterrent in those cases.
- piltdownman 2y agoShe's a sociopath who defrauded a number of high-profile U.S. presidential cabinet officials, and was jailed for forming "the most illustrious board in U.S. corporate history" and then shamelessly deceiving them into publicly supporting her. The support of Schultz, Kissinger, Matis et al rendered her the world's youngest self-made female billionaire, youngest recipient of the Horatio Alger Award, and Obama's Presidential Ambassador for Global Entrepreneurship. She then chilled out John Carreyrou and The Wall Street Journal financially and legally for trying to expose her deception The only reason she was not convinced for patient fraud was a weak jury deciding the patients were "one-step removed" from Holmes as CEO.
- specialp 2y agoYes and none of these people asked anyone with clinical laboratory knowledge whether this device could work. Many analytes need a venous draw to attain accurate results. So even if they only used a drop of blood that blood would have to be obtained the same way as a tube is now. It would be like a young man dropping out of school and claiming they have GPU technology that is 2x nvidia performance. Everyone would laugh and demand proof. But they all didn't do the most basic of due diligence here
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rsynnott 2y agoShe largely defrauded idiots on the investor side, granted. But that's still not allowed. Even defrauding idiots is a crime.
- codingbot3000 2y agoAgree. But the crypto racket seems to be on a roll as never before nonetheless.
- rsynnott 2y ago
- duxup 2y agoHouse arrest would make the math on “should I try fraud”lean heavily towards fraud I think. Maybe even more so if you’ve got a nice house.
- westurner 2y agoFraud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud US Sentencing Commission > Fraud: https://www.ussc.gov/topic/fraud https://www.ussc.gov/topic/fraud What would deter fraud? "Here’s a look inside Donald Trump’s $355 million civil fraud verdict" (2024) https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-yor... "Trump hush money verdict: Guilty of all 34 counts" .. "Guilty: Trump becomes first former US president convicted of felony crimes" (2024) https://apnews.com/article/trump-trial-deliberations-jury-testimony-verdict-85558c6d08efb434d05b694364470aa0 https://apnews.com/article/trump-trial-deliberations-jury-te... "Trump mistakes [EJC] for [ex-wife]. #Shorts" https://youtube.com/shorts/0tq3rh6bh_8 https://youtube.com/shorts/0tq3rh6bh_8 .. https://youtu.be/lonTBp9h7Fo?si=77DIJMrpBRgLcsMK https://youtu.be/lonTBp9h7Fo?si=77DIJMrpBRgLcsMK
- duxup 2y agoI don’t know what that’s supposed to mean regarding the topic.
- westurner 2y ago> House arrest would make the math on “should I try fraud” lean heavily towards fraud I think. You argue that house arrest is an insufficient deterrent for the level of fraud committed by defendant A. Is the sentencing for defendant A consistent with the US Sentencing Guidelines, and consistent with other defendants convicted of fraud? > Maybe even more so if you’ve got a nice house. Defendant B apparently isn't even on house arrest, and apparently sent someone else to their civil rape deposition obstructively and fraudulently.
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- zero-sharp 2y agoThis comment is outrageous.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoPeople like to be soft on crime, until crime happens to them. Its the complete inability to empathize for fellow citizens that actually do the right thing, and contribute to society; instead relating with the criminal mind. Its a very weird stockholm's syndrome offshoot. There's a world of difference between mercy and recklessness. Justice must work for society to function. No one is getting beheaded here for stealing an apple.
- bdangubic 2y agoin the US there is always racial aspect to this. if this was a person of color and crime was selling some shit drugs on the streets, the same commenter would be like “life in prison without parole.” but for cute white blondie it is “eh put her on house arrest, she is no danger to society” :)
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoIs there? Here the sentiment seems to be arguing fiercely to reinforce the incarceration of a blonde white because she defrauded. Even if the victims she defrauded were despicable elites. She's not getting a pass, at all. No robin hood here. Then we have the drive to decriminalize drugs, driven by all citizen groups, but which mostly affects minorities only. Aren't things moving in the right direction, at least?
- bdangubic 2y agoI would want to believe that but I don’t think the realities “on the ground” match up. her not getting a pass is an exception, we have other examples besides this outlier?
- rayiner 2y ago[flagged]
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoIf someone steals from you your money , and that makes your family (including your son or daughter) destitute and unable to afford basic necessities like monthly rent so you can put a roof over your child, do you still agree ? I think you may have a very different perspective if you and your entire family were forced to bounce around from relatives' couches every few days because you can't afford your own, or if you had to tell your child you can't pay for a bed for him/her because someone took your money.
- Larrikin 2y agoShe got pregnant right before she went to jail and then tried to argue this. Also I guess fathers are worthless to children and they don't matter.
- belorn 2y agoThe reasoning for putting her in prison seems to be based on the severity of doing an almost a billion dollar in fraud. That is in the ballpark of some of the worlds largest bank robberies. There are good reason to question prison sentences for non-violent crime, and asking about the goals society has. If the goal is deterrent, then studies do show that harsher punishment can be effective if the crime is done under partial rational decision based on the risk of getting caught and the punishment if they do. If the goal is rehabilitation, then the results is less clear and may have the opposite effect. There is a lot of research and studies on this subject. Some compare different countries, like Norway vs US, and other compare states/cities, or the same location but different years with different strategies. To my knowledge there isn't a lot of consensus in what actually works.
- whoitwas 2y agoWhy would you suggest she isn't a threat? I think while incarcerated she she have additional restrictions to prevent her from scamming anyone else.
- RHSeeger 2y agoBeing in prison makes it less likely she will be able to commit another fraud.
- plagiarist 2y agoThe miscarriage of justice here is that she was acquitted of the widespread and deliberate medical malpractice, not that she has been jailed. She absolutely was a danger to everyone who trusted the tests from her machines.
- TheBigSalad 2y agoDidn't she steal billions of dollars? What do you think bank robbers should get, a 5 minute time out?
- perihelions 2y agoText of decision, (.pdf) https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca9.341504/gov.uscourts.ca9.341504.9034460859.1.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca9.341... Arguments in video format, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mP8zxSi6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mP8zxSi6g ("22-10312 USA v. Elizabeth Holmes: United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit (23.2K subscribers)")
- api 2y ago[flagged]
- piatra 2y agoYes-ish https://www.yahoo.com/news/jan-6-prisoners-recorded-podcast-190054263.html?guccounter=1 https://www.yahoo.com/news/jan-6-prisoners-recorded-podcast-...
- short_sells_poo 2y agoI guess if only she was peddling drinking bleach or antiparasitic drugs as a cure for cancer, she'd have been already made the head of the FDA.
- rusk 2y agoWhat she was doing was just as bad if not worse
- short_sells_poo 2y agoIt was probably worse, I'm merely agreeing with the parent poster that the conditional justice that seems to be getting ever more prevalent in the US (and across the world) can play into her cards just fine if she pivots to talking to the right portion of the population.
- rusk 2y agoIsn’t that the part of the population she ripped off though :)
- api 2y agoYeah but it was the wrong vibes. It wasn't riffing on a popular new age or alt-med quack trend like anti-vax or miracle cures THEY don't want you to know about.
- rusk 2y ago
- crossroadsguy 2y agoThe judge in the middle seems to be having a particularly great day and is quite cheerful. Unlike the rest two (flankies) who have a more serious (if I may say 'grim') dispositions I have come to associate judges with :)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yieldcrv 2y ago[flagged]
- Loughla 2y agoIf anyone ever referred to me as a number, I would spit at them. What an unbelievably degrading thing to do. Also what am I looking at here?
- bowsamic 2y ago> If anyone ever referred to me as a number, I would spit at them. What an unbelievably degrading thing to do. Let me get this straight. Someone degrades you so your response is to degrade yourself further by spitting like an animal?
- ajdude 2y agoThere's never been a time where I have not gotten a response from hn@ycombinator.com It's much more effective than doing what you're doing.
- twilo 2y agoBad Blood is a good book
- dustingetz 2y ago> She described federal prison as “hell and torture” and said she was “not the same person I was back then”. “The people I love the most have to walk away as I stand here, a prisoner, and my reality sinks in” would love to see Holmes as a face of prison reform when she gets out, she has the right skills and connections to really make a difference
- callc 2y agoWhy Holmes? I can’t tell if this is sarcasm. I would rather not see a person known to be psychopathic a lier, and lacking empathy (imagine the mindset to fake medical devices, having a direct impact on the healthcare of individual people) be the forefront of a social progressive movement. Can we not find someone with better qualities?
- dustingetz 2y agothe thing is, to spearhead prison reform, you need someone who was once a prisoner, and the intersection of that with "compassionate, honest, empathetic" characteristics would not appear to be very large
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- walls 2y ago> the intersection of that with "compassionate, honest, empathetic" characteristics would not appear to be very large It's also not to be found here. You're applying character traits to a person just because of their gender.
- dustingetz 2y agoI'm doing what now? The point is there's a high correlation between being a prisoner and being a psychopath, so you do not necessarily get to have super high honesty and compassion or whatever in the list of traits of a person who will reform prison. What you do get to do, is look at the set of actual people who have experienced prison (and therefore are most motivated and qualified to fix it), and sort by entrepreneurial skill. Hers is not zero.
- nojvek 2y agoI wonder if Elon will go in for defrauding Investors? How much should TSLA stock tank before Investors get wary?