9 ms·

In addition to these scientists, I heard from my friends in academia that they will be taking fewer PhD students because they're unsure of the funding. We may

by abirch 2y ago

In addition to these scientists, I heard from my friends in academia that they will be taking fewer PhD students because they're unsure of the funding. We may be looking at a lost decade.

polairscience 2y ago
We'll be very lucky if it's a lost decade. One of the many factors that made the US a technical powerhouse were the long threads across disciplines where people could do focused research. you had to reapply for grants but generally could be sure that important programs would stay in place. This breaks all of that. It seems poised to break research as we know it. As one of the many researchers that will likely lose their career to this, I will be forced to choose between stopping work that benefits both the public and industry or moving abroad to one of the many nations that do appreciate such effort. We are about to not only lose our future efforts but also hemorrhage current talent. I'm surely not the only person who's inbox\phone exploded with messages after the news broke with collaborators abroad offering to help me start a lab at their institute. Europe will gladly do take backsies on their WWII brain drain.
- peterlada 2y ago
  China is not losing this decade, the scientific gap will add to the growing chasm of future outcomes between the two superpowers.
  - teleforce 2y ago
    This reminds me the so called dark ages where western people just conveniently skipped through 1000 years of very productive knowledge of development and contributions from the Arab and Muslim world centered around Toledo, Spain and Baghdad, Iraq as it never happened [1]. The false narative is that it's straight from Greek and Roman era to the Renaissance era as if mathematicians and scientists were just fall asleep in the entire world where in actual fact in the Arab and Muslim world many thousands of books from Greece/Rome/India/China were painstakenly translated (no Google translate, no printing press) and many more new books were written. [1] Toledan Tables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledan_Tables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledan_Tables
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- rob74 2y ago
  And this is just one of many ways the US is currently shooting itself in the foot (or, if you prefer, cutting off its nose to spite its face). Thanks, Elon! Putin and Xi must be cheering... > Europe will gladly do take backsies on their WWII brain drain. ...until the extreme-right populists (supported by the current US administration) come to power there too?
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    Populism requires that you're popular. Brexit clones were extremely popular for the right across Europe right up until Brexit actually happened, and then suddenly they all remembered they'd never wanted anything to do with such a stupid plan and began scrubbing praise for it from their materials, back to "reform" and tinkering at the edges. The trick is to be First. You can sell "Just do X and it'll be great" unless the people have already seen what a disaster X is.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      In the places that already did X, it will limp along as supporters try to deny that they that they chose something predictably dumb.
    - rob74 2y ago
      Well, the AfD wants Germany to withdraw from the EU, and the only reason why ruling right-wing populist parties in eastern Europe (e.g. Hungary) don't do it is because it's the hand that still feeds them money (despite them continuously biting it). TBF, Brexit was a particularly bad idea because of the Northern Ireland situation, so others can still feed the illusion that their *exit would be "cleaner"...
      - richrichardsson 2y ago
        Reducing the problems of Brexit to the Northern Ireland situation is quite blinkered. Businesses (especially smaller ones) have suffered immensely as a result of supply chain issues, lopsided bureaucracy and red-tape.
      - 2y ago
carterschonwald 2y ago
My fear as well. I’m not sure if even a magic wish to rearrange stuff back to the before January state of affairs is possible at this point. Write to your representatives. I fear that if they don’t pull off something the only ethical and responsible thing is civil war. This shit is insane and will destroy everything I like about our government. Also to quote every true patriot: the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. I’m so angry and mad and wanting to help fix it. My near term approach is write expansively to all my city state and congressional reps. We already have diarrhea inducing corruption happening in plain view. We have walking piñatas for an urgent need to do campaign finance reform. I’m not sure if there’s any way to save some of the institutions and programs that make this country actually great without a straight up secession/civil war for the coastal states. I’m very very scared. And angry.
- neilv 2y ago
  On HN, "revolutionary" is an adjective, and it means making a lot of money. :)
- setikites 2y ago
  Calling your elected representatives daily is more effective. The app 5 calls makes it easy.
  - 20after4 2y ago
    5 * 0 is still 0. They aren't listening.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Unless you are in a swing district that isn’t gerrymandered to death, your representative could care less about what you think. Their first objective is not to get primaried. The biggest check on the administration is the Senate which confirms executive nominees. The Senate is definitely not “representative” of anything when Wyoming gets two Senators just like California.
  - gs17 2y ago
    Unfortunately, mine very proudly proclaim how much they agree with what's going on. And they're also very proud of gerrymandering the state so they don't need to listen to anyone.
bongodongobob 2y ago
We're losing an entire generation at least. The pain that these cuts are going to cause won't be felt overnight. It will be felt over decades. "Things have been set into motion that cannot be undone".
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Just like the Supreme Court :(
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
> We may be looking at a lost decade. We're looking at the US wilfully letting go of the possibiility of remaining the most powerful nation in the world. Reduced health, reduced education, reduced funding for research, reduced international aid programs (which both garner goodwill whilst also creating a bulwark against those who profit from misery), reduced oversight / regulation of the power of capital, alienation of prior allies, reduced safety nets for the vulnerable, increased rhetoric against poorly defined 'foreign types', anti-intellectualism. It's a helluva vacuum being created, and I'm not particularly optimistic about what's going to fill it.
- andix 2y ago
  You forgot "wilfully letting go of democracy". US democracy is far away from dying, but who knows how much longer it can keep holding up.
  - late2part 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - digitaltrees 2y ago
    It’s not far away from dying. I would argue that it’s already too late. The trump administration has shown that it can seize the power to control spending which is constitutionally an exclusive power if congress and courts can’t and won’t do anything about it. We are past a constitutional crisis, republicans had a theory of a unitary executive and prove they can stream roll other branches. Now trump and others are talking about a third term. They play it off as a joke but that’s how they have succeeded in moving the goal posts already.
    - pizza 2y ago
      Here are some new concrete developments that I doubt the founders of the democracy would say are fine: - the Executive Branch now has presumptive - if not absolute - immunity against all criminal official acts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_%282024%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_%282024... - universities must obey Trump's culture war agenda, otherwise they will be de-accredited and a fine equal to the value of the entire university endowment will be leveraged - https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-vows-to-seize-endowments-from-universities-practicing-discrimination-under-the-guise-of-equity/ https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-vows-to-seize-endowm... - President-elect Donald Trump and his top advisers have long cited impoundment, a little-known legal theory [... that] essentially claims that any president has unilateral authority to ignore Congress’s funding bills and withhold or “impound” funds meant for programs, agencies, or departments deemed unsuitable by the White House. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/3244202/trump-impoundment-federal-bureaucracy-trigger-supreme-court-battle/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/3244202/...
koolba 2y ago
[flagged]
- digitaltrees 2y ago
  When legal and predictable processes are undermined no one can rely on the government being a good actor. A good reputation takes generations to establish and seconds to destroy. No one will trust the government now.
  - koolba 2y ago
    > When legal and predictable processes are undermined ... Being legally undermined is hardly a bad thing. We voted for unified Republican control of both branches of the legislator and the POTUS. You might not like the outcomes, but there's nothing illegal about what the executive branch is doing, how it's doig it, or the legislation that Congress will be passing in the coming months. > ... no one can rely on the government being a good actor. A good reputation takes generations to establish and seconds to destroy. No one will trust the government now. The prior administrations should have kept that in mind before they squandered our money. It's unfortunate that useful and deserving projects will temporarily get caught in the blast radius. But there's been so much waste an lack of accountability that something like what we're seeing for the past few weeks is the only recourse.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      "We" didn't vote for that. 49.8% of voters did, or about 23% of all people living in the US. > there's nothing illegal about what the executive branch is doing Why do you believe that? There are a lot of people filing lawsuits saying that there's a ton illegal about how the executive branch is doing things, and quite a few judges agree enough to order Trump to stop doing what he's doing until we can figure out what's going on.
    - digitaltrees 2y ago
      But this isn’t legal. Doge is not a validly created department because it wasn’t created by congress. Elon musk was appointed by the president after congressional advise and consent. The termination has violated employment law pass by congress specifically to shield the federal employees from partisan attacks and influence. The fact that the federal bureaucracy has been a non-partisan professional workforce has been on of the greatest strengths in the world. What musk and trump are doing will introduce corruption in government by turning it into a spoil system. They are making new hires swear allegiance to trump directly not the constitution. Also not legal. And when they’ve lost in court they have actively defied the rulings. Oh and that’s after lying about the fact that Elon’s running things to make their position more favorable. Shall I go on?
ajmurmann 2y ago
Lost decade for the US and the beginning of the Chinese century for others
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Maybe China will start accepting international PhD students? I don’t see anyone else who could pick up the slack.
- mnau 2y ago
  No point unless coupled with ability to immigrate. Why would China educate foreigners only to see them leave? There is no payoff. It makes sense in US because of for-profit universities and easier immigration. That is not situation over there.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    The US doesn't really have many for-profit universities, and those that are for-profit don't attract a lot of international PhD students. We do (or did?) have a lot of research to be done, and we would never be able to do it without international PhD students (including from China and India). China has some immigration, and people will be attracted to stay if the research jobs are good and accessible. If China takes over the USA's role of the preeminent world power, they will have access to and need to leverage world talent to do so.
dang 2y ago
Recent and related: Penn to reduce graduate admissions, rescind acceptances amid research cuts - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43144940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43144940 - Feb 2025 (646 comments)
throwawaymaths 2y ago
to steelman the issue: what if there was overinvestment in science? as in we chased money after talent that didnt exist, or was mismatched to the difficulty of the available and fundable open questions. a few things: you'd expect a lot of fraud and misallocated science to have been recently uncovered. after the cuts, you would expect the quantity of science to go down, but the quality to go up
- mplewis 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    go get a degree in science and come back with your take.
jmcgough 2y ago
Biochemist friend moved across the country for a post-doc and three months into it is waiting to be let go. She is now looking at options outside the country, specifically China, given the incredible instability here.
grandempire 2y ago
1. Most science PhD students are international. So funding their education has questionable domestic political value. 2. Those people don’t just disappear. If there aren’t PhD programs they will do something else. 3. It’s hard to argue we are at some optimal level of PhD students and that if we cut back the system won’t work. Most academics agree we have too many.

by abirch 2y ago

In addition to these scientists, I heard from my friends in academia that they will be taking fewer PhD students because they're unsure of the funding. We may be looking at a lost decade.

polairscience 2y ago

We'll be very lucky if it's a lost decade. One of the many factors that made the US a technical powerhouse were the long threads across disciplines where people could do focused research. you had to reapply for grants but generally could be sure that important programs would stay in place. This breaks all of that. It seems poised to break research as we know it. As one of the many researchers that will likely lose their career to this, I will be forced to choose between stopping work that benefits both the public and industry or moving abroad to one of the many nations that do appreciate such effort. We are about to not only lose our future efforts but also hemorrhage current talent. I'm surely not the only person who's inbox\phone exploded with messages after the news broke with collaborators abroad offering to help me start a lab at their institute. Europe will gladly do take backsies on their WWII brain drain.

peterlada 2y ago
China is not losing this decade, the scientific gap will add to the growing chasm of future outcomes between the two superpowers.
- teleforce 2y ago
  This reminds me the so called dark ages where western people just conveniently skipped through 1000 years of very productive knowledge of development and contributions from the Arab and Muslim world centered around Toledo, Spain and Baghdad, Iraq as it never happened [1]. The false narative is that it's straight from Greek and Roman era to the Renaissance era as if mathematicians and scientists were just fall asleep in the entire world where in actual fact in the Arab and Muslim world many thousands of books from Greece/Rome/India/China were painstakenly translated (no Google translate, no printing press) and many more new books were written. [1] Toledan Tables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledan_Tables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledan_Tables
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
rob74 2y ago
And this is just one of many ways the US is currently shooting itself in the foot (or, if you prefer, cutting off its nose to spite its face). Thanks, Elon! Putin and Xi must be cheering... > Europe will gladly do take backsies on their WWII brain drain. ...until the extreme-right populists (supported by the current US administration) come to power there too?
- tialaramex 2y ago
  Populism requires that you're popular. Brexit clones were extremely popular for the right across Europe right up until Brexit actually happened, and then suddenly they all remembered they'd never wanted anything to do with such a stupid plan and began scrubbing praise for it from their materials, back to "reform" and tinkering at the edges. The trick is to be First. You can sell "Just do X and it'll be great" unless the people have already seen what a disaster X is.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    In the places that already did X, it will limp along as supporters try to deny that they that they chose something predictably dumb.
  - rob74 2y ago
    Well, the AfD wants Germany to withdraw from the EU, and the only reason why ruling right-wing populist parties in eastern Europe (e.g. Hungary) don't do it is because it's the hand that still feeds them money (despite them continuously biting it). TBF, Brexit was a particularly bad idea because of the Northern Ireland situation, so others can still feed the illusion that their *exit would be "cleaner"...
    - richrichardsson 2y ago
      Reducing the problems of Brexit to the Northern Ireland situation is quite blinkered. Businesses (especially smaller ones) have suffered immensely as a result of supply chain issues, lopsided bureaucracy and red-tape.
    - 2y ago

carterschonwald 2y ago

My fear as well. I’m not sure if even a magic wish to rearrange stuff back to the before January state of affairs is possible at this point. Write to your representatives. I fear that if they don’t pull off something the only ethical and responsible thing is civil war. This shit is insane and will destroy everything I like about our government. Also to quote every true patriot: the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. I’m so angry and mad and wanting to help fix it. My near term approach is write expansively to all my city state and congressional reps. We already have diarrhea inducing corruption happening in plain view. We have walking piñatas for an urgent need to do campaign finance reform. I’m not sure if there’s any way to save some of the institutions and programs that make this country actually great without a straight up secession/civil war for the coastal states. I’m very very scared. And angry.

neilv 2y ago
On HN, "revolutionary" is an adjective, and it means making a lot of money. :)
setikites 2y ago
Calling your elected representatives daily is more effective. The app 5 calls makes it easy.
- 20after4 2y ago
  5 * 0 is still 0. They aren't listening.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Unless you are in a swing district that isn’t gerrymandered to death, your representative could care less about what you think. Their first objective is not to get primaried. The biggest check on the administration is the Senate which confirms executive nominees. The Senate is definitely not “representative” of anything when Wyoming gets two Senators just like California.
- gs17 2y ago
  Unfortunately, mine very proudly proclaim how much they agree with what's going on. And they're also very proud of gerrymandering the state so they don't need to listen to anyone.

bongodongobob 2y ago

We're losing an entire generation at least. The pain that these cuts are going to cause won't be felt overnight. It will be felt over decades. "Things have been set into motion that cannot be undone".

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Just like the Supreme Court :(

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

> We may be looking at a lost decade. We're looking at the US wilfully letting go of the possibiility of remaining the most powerful nation in the world. Reduced health, reduced education, reduced funding for research, reduced international aid programs (which both garner goodwill whilst also creating a bulwark against those who profit from misery), reduced oversight / regulation of the power of capital, alienation of prior allies, reduced safety nets for the vulnerable, increased rhetoric against poorly defined 'foreign types', anti-intellectualism. It's a helluva vacuum being created, and I'm not particularly optimistic about what's going to fill it.

andix 2y ago
You forgot "wilfully letting go of democracy". US democracy is far away from dying, but who knows how much longer it can keep holding up.
- late2part 2y ago
  [flagged]
- digitaltrees 2y ago
  It’s not far away from dying. I would argue that it’s already too late. The trump administration has shown that it can seize the power to control spending which is constitutionally an exclusive power if congress and courts can’t and won’t do anything about it. We are past a constitutional crisis, republicans had a theory of a unitary executive and prove they can stream roll other branches. Now trump and others are talking about a third term. They play it off as a joke but that’s how they have succeeded in moving the goal posts already.
  - pizza 2y ago
    Here are some new concrete developments that I doubt the founders of the democracy would say are fine: - the Executive Branch now has presumptive - if not absolute - immunity against all criminal official acts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_%282024%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_%282024... - universities must obey Trump's culture war agenda, otherwise they will be de-accredited and a fine equal to the value of the entire university endowment will be leveraged - https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-vows-to-seize-endowments-from-universities-practicing-discrimination-under-the-guise-of-equity/ https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-vows-to-seize-endowm... - President-elect Donald Trump and his top advisers have long cited impoundment, a little-known legal theory [... that] essentially claims that any president has unilateral authority to ignore Congress’s funding bills and withhold or “impound” funds meant for programs, agencies, or departments deemed unsuitable by the White House. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/3244202/trump-impoundment-federal-bureaucracy-trigger-supreme-court-battle/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/3244202/...

koolba 2y ago

[flagged]

digitaltrees 2y ago
When legal and predictable processes are undermined no one can rely on the government being a good actor. A good reputation takes generations to establish and seconds to destroy. No one will trust the government now.
- koolba 2y ago
  > When legal and predictable processes are undermined ... Being legally undermined is hardly a bad thing. We voted for unified Republican control of both branches of the legislator and the POTUS. You might not like the outcomes, but there's nothing illegal about what the executive branch is doing, how it's doig it, or the legislation that Congress will be passing in the coming months. > ... no one can rely on the government being a good actor. A good reputation takes generations to establish and seconds to destroy. No one will trust the government now. The prior administrations should have kept that in mind before they squandered our money. It's unfortunate that useful and deserving projects will temporarily get caught in the blast radius. But there's been so much waste an lack of accountability that something like what we're seeing for the past few weeks is the only recourse.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    "We" didn't vote for that. 49.8% of voters did, or about 23% of all people living in the US. > there's nothing illegal about what the executive branch is doing Why do you believe that? There are a lot of people filing lawsuits saying that there's a ton illegal about how the executive branch is doing things, and quite a few judges agree enough to order Trump to stop doing what he's doing until we can figure out what's going on.
  - digitaltrees 2y ago
    But this isn’t legal. Doge is not a validly created department because it wasn’t created by congress. Elon musk was appointed by the president after congressional advise and consent. The termination has violated employment law pass by congress specifically to shield the federal employees from partisan attacks and influence. The fact that the federal bureaucracy has been a non-partisan professional workforce has been on of the greatest strengths in the world. What musk and trump are doing will introduce corruption in government by turning it into a spoil system. They are making new hires swear allegiance to trump directly not the constitution. Also not legal. And when they’ve lost in court they have actively defied the rulings. Oh and that’s after lying about the fact that Elon’s running things to make their position more favorable. Shall I go on?

ajmurmann 2y ago

Lost decade for the US and the beginning of the Chinese century for others

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

Maybe China will start accepting international PhD students? I don’t see anyone else who could pick up the slack.

mnau 2y ago
No point unless coupled with ability to immigrate. Why would China educate foreigners only to see them leave? There is no payoff. It makes sense in US because of for-profit universities and easier immigration. That is not situation over there.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  The US doesn't really have many for-profit universities, and those that are for-profit don't attract a lot of international PhD students. We do (or did?) have a lot of research to be done, and we would never be able to do it without international PhD students (including from China and India). China has some immigration, and people will be attracted to stay if the research jobs are good and accessible. If China takes over the USA's role of the preeminent world power, they will have access to and need to leverage world talent to do so.

dang 2y ago

Recent and related: Penn to reduce graduate admissions, rescind acceptances amid research cuts - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43144940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43144940 - Feb 2025 (646 comments)

throwawaymaths 2y ago

to steelman the issue: what if there was overinvestment in science? as in we chased money after talent that didnt exist, or was mismatched to the difficulty of the available and fundable open questions. a few things: you'd expect a lot of fraud and misallocated science to have been recently uncovered. after the cuts, you would expect the quantity of science to go down, but the quality to go up

mplewis 2y ago
[flagged]
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  go get a degree in science and come back with your take.

jmcgough 2y ago

Biochemist friend moved across the country for a post-doc and three months into it is waiting to be let go. She is now looking at options outside the country, specifically China, given the incredible instability here.

grandempire 2y ago

1. Most science PhD students are international. So funding their education has questionable domestic political value. 2. Those people don’t just disappear. If there aren’t PhD programs they will do something else. 3. It’s hard to argue we are at some optimal level of PhD students and that if we cut back the system won’t work. Most academics agree we have too many.