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Partnering with the Shawnee Tribe for Civilization VII
- ending 2y agoGiven that the content described in the partnership here is part of a DLC, I wonder if the Tribe is party to any profit sharing agreement with the game company.
- deviantbit 2y ago[flagged]
- orange_joe 2y agocouldn’t you just ignore them?
- deviantbit 2y agoHow? If you enter into a contract with them, it has to be litigated in their tribal court. Who do you think is going to win? The chief sits on the court as the judge and jury.
- repeekad 2y agoEntering into a contract doesn’t sound like ignoring, we did it to them only makes sense they can get away with exactly the same thing now
- titmouse 2y agoAh yes, the ole "two wrongs DO make a right" argument
- ronsor 2y ago> If you enter into a contract with them, it has to be litigated in their tribal court. Isn't it possible (and typical) for contracts to specify a particular forum for dispute resolution?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Isn't it possible (and typical) for contracts to specify a particular forum for dispute resolution? Tribes are sovereign under U.S. law. In most cases when you sign a contract with a tribe (or under tribal law), the tribe is free to modify it ex post facto.
- physicles 2y agoLooks like they learned this from the US government, which signed a series of treaties with the various Indian groups in the 1800s and then ignored the treaties.
- smeeger 2y agohow is it an argument when both sides are so deliciously correct
- chrisco255 2y agoThat's true of all of human history. Alliances shift between nations, disagreements occur, war breaks out and the map gets redrawn.
- tsimionescu 2y agoThe USA is really on another level than many other nations in its lack of respect for treaties, at least in modern times. Anyone who signs an agreement with the USA should really expect at most 3-4 years of validity, depending where in the election cycle it was signed.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y agoHow would they enforce the court verdict if you aren't on their land?
- therein 2y agoIn this situation they owe you money, not the other way around.
- rexpop 2y ago[flagged]
- ars 2y agoSo basically because someone did something bad to them, they have become unethical thieves? And you're fine with it? (I know nothing about them, but your description of them ... yikes. You are making them out to be pretty terrible people.)
- rexpop 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- defrost 2y agoTo be clear here, it appears that deviantbit described the Shawnee as: flat out thieves rexpop described the Shawnee as: genocide survivors [.. that] operate in a landscape that is existentially hostile to them [..] from an immeasurable disadvantage. and you've now declared calling them "genocide survivors" as "making them out to be pretty terrible people" while casting no judgement on the description as "flat out thieves" ? Did you reply to the correct comment?
- ars 2y agorexpop essentially confirmed that they are thieves and then said it's correct for them to be thieves. Saying someone is a permanent and irredeemable thief, is worse than saying someone stole something.
- defrost 2y ago"essentially confirmed" with airquotes is what escalates them from alleged thieves to permanent and irredeemable thieves in your mind? That's interesting. Their comment reads more as someone still angry about stolen land, stolen children, Indian boarding schools, stealth abortions, and other events which still touch living people and cause them to be upset when reading allegations of theft.
- EdwardDiego 2y ago[flagged]
- loanedempathy 2y agoI highly doubt that the poster did anything other than try and conduct business with the tribe. Thievery is thievery--if it's okay on a small scale now, it must've been fine on a large scale then. At which point, we're just scoring who was more effective at it. Sucks to suck.
- rexpop 2y ago> if it's okay on a small scale now, it must've been fine on a large scale then This is literally the opposite of cause-and-effect, and also a horrifically simplistic—even elementary—ethical model.
- loanedempathy 2y ago[flagged]
- lmz 2y ago[flagged]
- jurenbert 2y ago[flagged]
- EdwardDiego 2y agoNothing! So not sure why you raised it!
- rexpop 2y ago[flagged]
- cjonas 2y agoSeems like a fair play given the history...
- bigstrat2003 2y agoYes and no. The history is pretty fucked, but on the other hand nobody currently alive screwed them over. In a lot of cases, people's ancestors weren't even living here back then. I think that it's not as fair in light of the lack of culpability.
- babyent 2y agoSure but people around today benefited tremendously from the horrific acts of their ancestors. It’s uncomfortable if you’re on the benefactor side but it is the truth. There are levels to it and some oppressive acts of the past were magnitudes worse than others. I mean literal genocide.
- cyberax 2y ago> Sure but people around today benefited tremendously from the horrific acts of their ancestors. Including the Shawnee people. So it makes this stance just a tad hypocritical.
- babyent 2y agoNot really. One group was literally wiped out. And Shawnee were just one group. My people lived under imperial colonial rule. Cool we got railroads but trillions looted and millions killed in famines. Just because some people sold out their own doesn’t forgive the sin of the atrocities brought forth that set generations back.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- cyberax 2y ago
- CSMastermind 2y agoIt sucks that all the Civ competitors seemed to have failed so far. The genre really needs some innovation.
- zevets 2y agoOld World, made by some ex-civ people, is really quite excellent
- acdha 2y agoI especially like that they’re still making substantial improvements. It’s quite the contrast to Civ V having game-breaking bugs which were never patched.
- loganc2342 2y agoNot to discount your experience, but I’ve played for thousands of hours and never had any problems like this so YMMV
- acdha 2y agoYeah, I know it’s a complex game but we had a big multiplayer game deadlock a couple hundred turns in and that kind of soured everyone on the franchise.
- lelandfe 2y agoI heard this from so many people that I bought it, and ultimately sought a refund. I had similar problems with its UI that I did with Civ VII. The row of 15 unlabeled icons, a parade of numbers. Font pairings that do not work together. It was hard to see the likely good game underneath. I wish Humankind was a better game because its presentation is so good.
- marticode 2y agoI am playing this right now and love it, though the learning curve is steep even for a Civilization veteran. This is what Civ VI or VII could be if they didn't try to dumb down the game to increase the audience.
- wetpaws 2y ago[dead]
- ProjectArcturis 2y agoI would have preferred they partner with some UI experts.
- smallmancontrov 2y agoIf they partnered with a modern UI expert, the buttons would be replaced by hieroglyphs even more cryptic than symbols from the Shawnee Tribe and organized into at least 3 separate hamburger menus.
- OvbiousError 2y agoThey do have huge amounts of whitespace everywhere so I guess they did do some modern UI design.
- prododev 2y agoI don't think it was lack of experts. I suspect the UI people are professionals. I much more strongly suspect it was "we're going to hire one person to do the work of three" and the result was "get it working as quick as I can".
- LukaD 2y ago> get it working as quick as I can That’s certainly what it looks like. When I first tried the game, before getting a refund shortly after, my first thought was “wtf, did they accidentally ship an old build?”. The UI feels so u finished, lacking feedback and visual clarity.
- somenameforme 2y agoI'd go for AI! The problem I have with Civ is that they create these really sort of interesting and elaborate systems, but they've clearly long surpassed the capabilities of their AI systems to the point that the only way to create the illusion of competitiveness is with giving the AI ever more massive cheat bonuses (200% faster research, 200% more resources per tile, etc type stuff). That really ruins the 'real' game and creates this sort of meta layer where you're specifically aiming to compete against these cheat bonuses rather than actually playing the game. It'd be analogous to a really weak chess AI trying to create the facade of challenge by randomly giving itself a new pawn every 2 turns, a a knight every 5 turns, and a rook every 20.
- 29athrowaway 2y agoCiv was completely changed after Civ 4. The Normandy invasion in World war 2 was a "death stack". Blitzkrieg style operations were death stacks too (e.g.: schwerpunkt) And almost every major conflict involved a decisive battle with two death stacks on each side. The game designers of Civ 5 decided to restrict forming death stacks and the new versions of the game still have this mechanic. This is the moment Civ became a completely different game. The last true Civ game was Civ 4.
- npinsker 2y agoI haven’t played much Civ — is there some reason that preserving that particular mechanic is important? It doesn’t seem obviously desirable (or undesirable).
- 29athrowaway 2y agoCiv 1, 2, 3, 4 all played the roughly the same. Civ 5 onwards plays completely different because how tile movements are restricted. In real life those silly restrictions they added do not exist and get in the way of simulating a war.
- jncfhnb 2y agoA single giant blob of every unit you have moving as one is about as unrealistic as you can get with respect to war logistics and strategy.
- 29athrowaway 2y agoNo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
- rsynnott 2y ago> With each Civilization title, we take great care to thoughtfully and authentically portray every culture on our roster of civilizations and leaders Especially Gandhi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Gandhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Gandhi (Note that while the original bug apparently wasn’t real, they _did_ play with it in subsequent games, at least V and VI).
- wetpaws 2y ago[dead]
- pclmulqdq 2y agoNuclear Gandhi, as far as I can tell, was actually about Civ I, not Civ II. Gandhi would get to nukes early because India had a tech boost, and he would threaten the player in every diplomatic interaction that his words were backed with nukes. The AI in the early Civ games is pretty aggressive, too, so I assume that if you rejected him too many times, he absolutely would become a big warmonger. As to the integer underflow, that appears to either be debunked or to be something that Sid Meyer misremembered (IMO both are possible). I don't think you need an integer underflow for Gandhi to go nuclear in an early Civ game, though.
- eliben 2y agoIt is authoritatively debunked in Sid Meier's (excellent) memoir - there was no such integer underflow bug in Civ I, it was all a rumor that went viral. The franchise did embrace the meme, though.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoI am aware that it's in his memoir, but I am not sure whether he actually went through the code to write it or just went back through his notes/memory. Or whether 2K told him to "debunk" it so he wrote some fiction (also a possibility - see Feynman's memoirs which have quite a bit of fiction in them). It was a long time ago and prior to the memoir, neither he nor any of the other developers on a Civ franchise remembered whether there was an error, and they all said as much on the record. Also, the story of an underflow was about Civ II, not Civ I. I am not necessarily convinced there is no underflow, but I am convinced that there is a plausible alternative theory.
- meristohm 2y agoCautiously optimistic, though I'm skeptical a game based on "explore, expand, extirpate, exploit, extract, exterminate", capitalism, and colonization will change sufficiently in this next iteration. To be fayuh... I mostly played Civ3, Civ4 and only a little bit of CiV, and put Civ6 on my Steam Ignore list after reading enough about it (and now I've gone and (gladly, willingly) deleted my Steam account, so this is academic for me). Awhile back I daydreamed about other "victory" conditions (what other victory is there but an interesting story across generations, a sense of meaning and purpose to life, and the continuation of a diverse interrelation of life forms on Earth?), and would like to have played a game where I set up the initial conditions, played out as many turns as I wanted, and then turned it over to the algorithm (not AI, not the current ML/LLM fad, but something far cheaper to run, and with just the biases of the devs as a result of all their research) to see how things shook out over the next ten thousand years.
- prododev 2y ago[flagged]
- viewhub 2y agoDefinitely LOL'd watching the video when it opened up with the singing native American trope. Marketing content is torture. I'll die on this hill.
- anon7000 2y agoMarketing content has definitely destroyed Google search. So much harder to find in-depth content
- UltraSane 2y agoThe way Google randomly deletes words in your search term drives me insane.
- DaiPlusPlus 2y agoIf you don't mind this unsolicited product-recommendation, I use Kagi now and I'm won-over. Turns out that when users pay for a search-engine it ends-up focused towards the users' needs and not advertisers; funny that. (Though Kagi isn't perfect: I find it slower than Google: it'll take maybe 500ms for a result compared to <100ms on Google; Search-autocomplete is also less responsive, and their privacy-first approach means they don't save your search-history, whereas I want them to save my search-history for me, but anyway).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- kgeist 2y ago>Shawnee language >Native speakers 100-200 (2024) Imagine knowing every single speaker of your language personally. You could invent neologisms and make them spread quickly.
- internet_points 2y agoAnd it's a polysynthetic language, so new words are invented all the time :) Also cool: They have two third persons, proximate and obviative (some times called fourth person)
- Veliladon 2y agoAll words are invented?
- datadrivenangel 2y agoThis is true for everything, but it's more obvious when you only have ~200 speakers.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lurk2 2y ago> In English and many other European languages, the principal means of distinguishing between multiple third-person referents is using gender or (lack of) reflexive. Thus, in "she saw him", it is clear that there are two third persons because they are of different genders. In "she saw her", it is clear that there are two third persons because otherwise, one would say "she saw herself". However, "she saw her mother" is ambiguous: it could mean that she saw her own mother or that she saw someone else's mother. This is because it is not clear, in some contexts, if "she" and "her" refer to the same person. An obviative/proximate system has a different way of distinguishing between multiple third-person referents. When there is more than one third person named in a sentence or discourse context, the most important, salient, or topical is marked as "proximate" and any other, less salient entities are marked as "obviative". Subsequent sentences that refer to previously-named entities with pronouns or verbal inflections can then use the proximate and obviative references that have already been established to distinguish between the two.[0] [0] - https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative
- ysofunny 2y agoI want some kind of LLM for every rival civ so we can have natural language diplomacy
- internet_points 2y agoAsked 4o: Translate into Shawnee: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights" Translating a specific sentence like "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights" into Shawnee can be challenging without expertise in the language or input from a fluent speaker, due to nuances in meaning and the language's polysynthetic nature. Furthermore, high-quality and detailed language resources or native speakers are often necessary for accurate translation, considering contextual and cultural factors. If you need an accurate translation, it might be best to consult resources or individuals specializing in Shawnee, such as language preservation organizations or native speakers involved in language revitalization efforts. These individuals would have the nuanced understanding necessary to convey the meaning appropriately in Shawnee. (And that sentence is from one of the most widely translated documents in existence. Unfortunately it's quite unlikely we'll get a Large LM for Shawnee.)
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago> Nihshanáhkwa nehi neelio ku nitehowski, wa nitho nitanawitshili. Asked a random online translation service [0], I have no idea if this is accurate or if I just insulted someone's mother. The translator service also has the input field labeled "normal language", which is pretty oof. [0] https://anythingtranslate.com/translators/shawnee-translator/ https://anythingtranslate.com/translators/shawnee-translator...
- pentacent_hq 2y agoThis "translator" seems to be producing complete gibberish. For the example sentence "The house is red.", it gave me "Nikiki sîhîi.", "Iko nèeki kèya.", and "Kanǫ́kǫ ǩąn ʌpa nǫhǫ." in three subsequent attempts. Now I don't speak Shawnee but it seems highly unlikely that these very different results all correspond to the original sentence in any language. Plus, the few examples of Shawnee I could find online [1] also suggest it's not written with non-Latin characters and diacritics such as were produced by this "translator". [1] e.g. https://shawneelanguage.homestead.com/numbers.html https://shawneelanguage.homestead.com/numbers.html
- iandanforth 2y agoThat press release is written in the most servile fashion. Delete "carefully", "respectfully", "authentically", etc you get the exact same content except it doesn't sound boot-licking. I'm all for getting a culture right, but the proof is in the product, not in easy to type adjectives that describe how you should always act without expecting praise for it.
- LightBug1 2y ago[flagged]
- LightBug1 2y agoCiv II will always be peak Civ
- ensignavenger 2y ago"With each Civilization title, we take great care to thoughtfully and authentically portray every culture on our roster of civilizations and leaders." Like making Gandhi hurl nukes around like no other? :) Love my Shawnee neighbors though, happy to see my One More Turn habit helping them preserve their language.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- adultSwim 2y agoI'm proud of these efforts. I'll probably buy a full priced copy of the new Civ because of them.