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> I guess "Make America Great" may spawn a big Cloud Industry in Europe. Unlikely. I've worked at an american cloud provider and (in another job) i've worked

by znpy 2y ago

> I guess "Make America Great" may spawn a big Cloud Industry in Europe. Unlikely. I've worked at an american cloud provider and (in another job) i've worked with an european cloud provider (in this context, when I say "worked with" I mean i was in contact with the people actually managing the hardware as well as the software that serves the "cloud"). It's just a completely different mindset, and I don't see that changing any time soon. The main issue i see is that european cloud providers mostly have technically-ignorant upper management for which providing a cloud offering essentially boils down to "buy this software component from company xyz (likely an american company) and install this open source product abc, then slap a cloud marketing name and unleash the salespeople". They can't even contemplate the idea hiring somebody with FAANG-level skills, paying it FAANG-level money and let it do FAANG-level work. They hire a few underpaid 20-somethings and have them manage, at best, an OpenStack installation. I kid you not: in late 2021 i was in a meeting with (among the others) the head of cloud engineering of one such companies and asked when are they planning on offering ipv6 connectivity. The guy had a loud laugh and said they had no plans to even consider ipv6 connectivity. And that was at a company that does both "cloud" computing infrastructure and connectivity (!!!). That's the mindset. I don't see europe building a realistic alternative to american cloud providers, and the core issue is not technical.

scarab92 2y ago
They also move too slowly, so they fall further and further behind each year. For example, Hetzner has great potential, but they’re only just now releasing object storage after 4 years in the cloud space, and they don’t even have managed database yet.
- everfrustrated 2y ago
  And they certainly didn't develop the software themselves either.
- dijit 2y ago
  "4 years in the cloud space" Hetzner has existed for a really long time, I'm not even sure what "cloud" means in your context. Object storage and VMs is what made AWS "cloud" 15 years ago, so by that definition Hetzner only just became a cloud provider.
  - scarab92 2y ago
    I mean since they started marketing themselves as a cloud vendor and selling cloud instances, instead of just a dedicated server vendor.
    - dijit 2y ago
      "cloud instances"; like a VPS?
      - scarab92 2y ago
        Yes, they are VPSs But the more important point was that they started branding themselves as a cloud vendor 4 years ago, and investing in new offerings around that pitch, but it’s taking them far too long to release basic parts of the offering, and they’re falling behind.
belter 2y ago
"AWS Services That Do Not Support IPv6" - https://github.com/DuckbillGroup/aws-ipv6-gaps https://github.com/DuckbillGroup/aws-ipv6-gaps
- thedougd 2y ago
  That’s two years out of date and the AWS announcements page is filled with IPv6 announcements.
  - belter 2y ago
    Lot's of No here: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/vpc/latest/userguide/aws-ipv6-support.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/vpc/latest/userguide/aws-ipv6-su...
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    IPv6 is the new ISDN. I Still Don't Need it.
- znpy 2y ago
  congratulations on missing the point. the real point is not ipv6 (or this or that specific service). the point is the attitude. anybody in this subthread bikeshedding what aws service supports what version of the ip protocol has missed the point and would probably fail a text comprehension test.
  - belter 2y ago
    Nobody missed the point. The examples of AWS after 15 years still being dragged into full IPv6, is to show the lack of support for IPv6, is not the lack of technical awareness that is trying to be demonstrated. Depending on the context, and granted, lacking some of the subtle details missing in the interaction described, might actually show real experience in the field. "Why No IPv6?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40039154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40039154
nisa 2y ago
> The main issue i see is that european cloud providers mostly have technically-ignorant upper management for which providing a cloud offering essentially boils down to "buy this software component from company xyz (likely an american company) and install this open source product abc, then slap a cloud marketing name and unleash the salespeople". They can't even contemplate the idea hiring somebody with FAANG-level skills, paying it FAANG-level money and let it do FAANG-level work. They hire a few underpaid 20-somethings and have them manage, at best, an OpenStack installation. Thank you! As a german that saw how the sauce is made in public sector tenders it's exactly this! This is not restricted to hosting / cloud sector. It's a good summary for most german IT companies. Arrogance and incompetence are rampant. Programmers and their managers need to go en masse to have some substantial change. Everyone is so full of themselves and disconnected from reality it's scary.
amelius 2y ago
Ok, that's one datapoint. Another datapoint says that Linux originated in Europe.
- yobbo 2y ago
  These datapoints don't contradict each other.
- DaSHacka 2y ago
  Great, now pull up a geo-map of originated commits per country....
- znpy 2y ago
  > Another datapoint says that Linux originated in Europe. Linus moved to the US and since 2010 is an american citizen, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds#Personal_life Thank you for backing up my argument, I guess?
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>I don't see europe building a realistic alternative to american cloud providers, and the core issue is not technical. The brain drain ultimately takes it toll. The most capable people from europe ( and every where else), move to US , be they engineers, management, entrepreneurs etc.
- fransje26 2y ago
  > The brain drain ultimately takes it toll. The most capable people from europe ( and every where else), move to US , be they engineers, management, entrepreneurs etc. And they are going to stay there once the megalomaniac in chief and his South African oligarch have gone with their wrecking ball through the very fabric of the US society and economy?
  - int_19h 2y ago
    The recent political trends in Europe are also not particularly welcome by many of those same people, though.
Hikikomori 2y ago
Ipv6 wasn't rally viable in a box until like last year.
- sam_lowry_ 2y ago
  My local European ISP provided me /64 IPv6 addresses since at least 2020 and had so called sticky IPv4 addresses since at last 1999. They were sticky because they did not change for years if the box was connected within 15 min. This was possible because motivated individuals held technical positions in the ISP while the management has been totally incompetent and was later jugged outright corrupt. Because of corrupt management and public scandals, my ISP has been sold to Orange. I am afraid this will end the 25 years of technical excellence as well.
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    I wrote AWS but got autocorrected...

by znpy 2y ago

scarab92 2y ago

They also move too slowly, so they fall further and further behind each year. For example, Hetzner has great potential, but they’re only just now releasing object storage after 4 years in the cloud space, and they don’t even have managed database yet.

everfrustrated 2y ago
And they certainly didn't develop the software themselves either.
dijit 2y ago
"4 years in the cloud space" Hetzner has existed for a really long time, I'm not even sure what "cloud" means in your context. Object storage and VMs is what made AWS "cloud" 15 years ago, so by that definition Hetzner only just became a cloud provider.
- scarab92 2y ago
  I mean since they started marketing themselves as a cloud vendor and selling cloud instances, instead of just a dedicated server vendor.
  - dijit 2y ago
    "cloud instances"; like a VPS?
    - scarab92 2y ago
      Yes, they are VPSs But the more important point was that they started branding themselves as a cloud vendor 4 years ago, and investing in new offerings around that pitch, but it’s taking them far too long to release basic parts of the offering, and they’re falling behind.

belter 2y ago

"AWS Services That Do Not Support IPv6" - https://github.com/DuckbillGroup/aws-ipv6-gaps https://github.com/DuckbillGroup/aws-ipv6-gaps

thedougd 2y ago
That’s two years out of date and the AWS announcements page is filled with IPv6 announcements.
- belter 2y ago
  Lot's of No here: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/vpc/latest/userguide/aws-ipv6-support.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/vpc/latest/userguide/aws-ipv6-su...
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  IPv6 is the new ISDN. I Still Don't Need it.
znpy 2y ago
congratulations on missing the point. the real point is not ipv6 (or this or that specific service). the point is the attitude. anybody in this subthread bikeshedding what aws service supports what version of the ip protocol has missed the point and would probably fail a text comprehension test.
- belter 2y ago
  Nobody missed the point. The examples of AWS after 15 years still being dragged into full IPv6, is to show the lack of support for IPv6, is not the lack of technical awareness that is trying to be demonstrated. Depending on the context, and granted, lacking some of the subtle details missing in the interaction described, might actually show real experience in the field. "Why No IPv6?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40039154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40039154

nisa 2y ago

> The main issue i see is that european cloud providers mostly have technically-ignorant upper management for which providing a cloud offering essentially boils down to "buy this software component from company xyz (likely an american company) and install this open source product abc, then slap a cloud marketing name and unleash the salespeople". They can't even contemplate the idea hiring somebody with FAANG-level skills, paying it FAANG-level money and let it do FAANG-level work. They hire a few underpaid 20-somethings and have them manage, at best, an OpenStack installation. Thank you! As a german that saw how the sauce is made in public sector tenders it's exactly this! This is not restricted to hosting / cloud sector. It's a good summary for most german IT companies. Arrogance and incompetence are rampant. Programmers and their managers need to go en masse to have some substantial change. Everyone is so full of themselves and disconnected from reality it's scary.

amelius 2y ago

Ok, that's one datapoint. Another datapoint says that Linux originated in Europe.

yobbo 2y ago
These datapoints don't contradict each other.
DaSHacka 2y ago
Great, now pull up a geo-map of originated commits per country....
znpy 2y ago
> Another datapoint says that Linux originated in Europe. Linus moved to the US and since 2010 is an american citizen, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds#Personal_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds#Personal_life Thank you for backing up my argument, I guess?

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

>I don't see europe building a realistic alternative to american cloud providers, and the core issue is not technical. The brain drain ultimately takes it toll. The most capable people from europe ( and every where else), move to US , be they engineers, management, entrepreneurs etc.

fransje26 2y ago
> The brain drain ultimately takes it toll. The most capable people from europe ( and every where else), move to US , be they engineers, management, entrepreneurs etc. And they are going to stay there once the megalomaniac in chief and his South African oligarch have gone with their wrecking ball through the very fabric of the US society and economy?
- int_19h 2y ago
  The recent political trends in Europe are also not particularly welcome by many of those same people, though.

Hikikomori 2y ago

Ipv6 wasn't rally viable in a box until like last year.

sam_lowry_ 2y ago
My local European ISP provided me /64 IPv6 addresses since at least 2020 and had so called sticky IPv4 addresses since at last 1999. They were sticky because they did not change for years if the box was connected within 15 min. This was possible because motivated individuals held technical positions in the ISP while the management has been totally incompetent and was later jugged outright corrupt. Because of corrupt management and public scandals, my ISP has been sold to Orange. I am afraid this will end the 25 years of technical excellence as well.
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  I wrote AWS but got autocorrected...