9 ms·

BYD has already produced its first solid-state cells

232 points by teleforce 2y ago

jmisavage 2y ago
This is just pilot production is the first of many steps towards mass production. They don’t expect actual production until 2027. It even mentions that CATL is at roughly the same stage. So while good news its still going to take some time to get these into production cars and to get the costs down.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Exactly. In order to be able to start production in 2027 they'd have to logically be quite far with the development of their battery cells to be able to say with confidence they'll be ready for that in 2027. You see the same with announcements from other manufacturers like CATL, Factorial, Quantumscape, Toyota, etc. Most of these are talking about timelines from 2026-2028 currently. They have each been testing battery samples for years and making announcements about roughly where they think they'll be going to production. It's not like battery cells suddenly pop into existence fully formed and ready to go. There's a lot of work and problem solving that needs to happen. 2027 isn't when mass production starts but when early, low volume production begins. It takes time, and many billions, to build large scale factories. They'll want to see low scale production work first. Early batteries are likely to be scarce and expensive for a while. People have unrealistic expectations about solid state batteries in general. Currently the best selling batteries aren't those with the highest density but those with the lowest cost of materials and production. That's why LFP is so popular currently. Solid state won't change that. LFP will be widely used for years to come. A logical place for relatively expensive early solid state batteries to be used would be in aviation related use cases and maybe some high-end vehicles or sports cars. Forget about these showing up in budget cars anytime soon.
- audunw 2y ago
  Isn’t quantum scape at a similar stage as well?
  - Gareth321 2y ago
    And Toyota: https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/ https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery... I'm hopeful that in the next few years we will see some serious range improvements across the board with EVs. Then mass adoption really takes off.
    - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
      Toyota has been lying about having solid state batteries for the past decade. At this point, don't believe that they have them until they ship them.
underseacables 2y ago
According to the battery business CTO, BYD expects to start “mass demonstration” of solid-state batteries around 2027. However, he did not provide any information on the number of prototype cells produced to date. Awesome if true, but I'll believe it when I see it. Until then like similar announcements from Toyota and others, I'll hold my enthusiasm.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  at least BYD is mass producing lithium-ion consumer vehicles in the interim. Toyota is just spreading FUD as a delay tactic and milking the petroleum cow
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  It is another Better Battery Bulletin
mi_lk 2y ago
> In theory, replacing the current liquid electrolyte in a battery cell with a solid offers a number of advantages. As the flammable liquid electrolyte is no longer required, solid-state cells are generally safer. At the same time, higher energy densities and more power are possible, resulting in a longer range and shorter charging times. In case you wonder why it can be important
- uxhacker 2y ago
  What difficult to find metals do these batteries need?
  - throw-qqqqq 2y ago
    Maybe this can satisfy your curiosity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery#Materials https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery#Material... ?
- sebazzz 2y ago
  It doesn't however mean this battery won't go up in flames when there is an unprotected short. It has X kWh stored in it that must and will be released in a way when a short happens.
kubb 2y ago
[flagged]
- bigthymer 2y ago
  Theoretically, you could short TSLA in the same amount that you own it within the ETF. This would be functionally equivalent to owning a custom market cap ETF minus TSLA.
  - kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
    It's not. If you're shorting, you're paying to borrow the stock.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    With the difference that you could get wiped out on the short ? Edit: I was wrong, if ETF has same amount of Tesla it should even out.
    - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
      yea literally my exact thought. Wish there was some better financial instrument for such purpose instead of shorting.
      - dgacmu 2y ago
        But you won't - you "own" an equal number of shares of TSLA indirectly through the index fund. If TSLA goes up, that part of your ETF has gone up. You're just being simultaneously long and short the same stock. The only difference between that and "not owning TSLA" is that you're paying a bit to borrow the shares -- about 0.41% annually, right now.
      - csomar 2y ago
        Options.
    - cthor 2y ago
      You can short without tail risk, e.g. buying puts.
louwrentius 2y ago
> However, BYD does not expect series production in the near future. That's the most important part of this article I believe.
- Animats 2y ago
  Yes. Solid state battery prototypes do work and are available as expensive prototypes, but nobody has a low-cost volume production process yet. Here's the lab-scale process of making a solid state cell, from the Fraunhofer Institute.[1] This is how different battery chemistries are tried. Honda has announced that they have a demo version of their solid state battery pilot plant in test.[2] There are low-detail pictures of the interior of the plant. Hyundai has announced that they will show their prototype solid state battery on March 9. They have built a pilot plant. They're thinking motorcycles before cars. EHang demoed a version of their flying car with solid state batteries a few months ago.[3] They got 48 minutes of flight time. (EHang's flying car is a scaled-up battery powered quadrotor drone with 16 props. They've been flying them for years now, but flight time was too short for it to be useful.) CATL says that the maturity of the process is at 4 on a scale of 9.[4] Large amounts of money are being spent in multiple countries to push this technology through to production. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SVrp8N-1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SVrp8N-1M [2] https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/january/honda-solid-state-battery-factory-plans/ https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/january/ho... [3] https://www.ehang.com/news/1137.html https://www.ehang.com/news/1137.html [4] https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2024/11/11/catl-bet-on-solid-state-becomes-reality https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2024/11/11/catl-bet-o...
ksec 2y ago
Considering Lithium ‘semi-solid-state battery’ (SSSB) already does 25% to 45% higher capacity with roadmap at 55% next year and double the battery capacity before 2030. I wonder what could we expect from ‘all-solid-state batteries’ (ASSB). Most people think current AI development is the most important research, I actually think ASSB ( or any massive battery improvement ) would bring us far more real life, quality improvement with things that previously were not possible.
- baq 2y ago
  Economically viable safe methane fuel cells would be revolutionary, too.
  - number6 2y ago
    Fusion!
  - audunw 2y ago
    If we’re could get a breakthrough in fuel cells it’d be even nicer if it was an efficient fuel cell for a liquid fuel. And to get an efficient way to make it from CO2 and electricity. Though I think for ground transportation, batteries will always be preferable.
    - tastyfreeze 2y ago
      Direct methanol fuel cells are a thing. It may not fit your definition of efficient but that is the technology I think should be pursued. There are multiple biological, chemical and electrochemical pathways to produce methanol. That means that there could be an economic way to produce it nearly everywhere. Another interesting technology is redox flow batteries. The fluid itself is charged. Fluid storage can be sized to the charge/use requirements. Or you can haul in "charged" fluid. But since the fluid is not consumed, discharged fluid would need to be taken away. Making hauling is less efficient.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Still releases carbon. Better than ICE and gasoline, but the cheapest methane is still from the ground.
fnord77 2y ago
> A truly large-scale introduction of solid-state batteries could possibly only take place after 2030, Sun is quoted in the reports So they're a bit behind Toyota
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  Everyone else is behind Toyota in promising EV breakthroughs "any year now". Announcements are their main EV product.
andy_xor_andrew 2y ago
on this topic, I have been wondering lately - what's with China's dominance in the battery science area? Is it still true that they're the only ones who can make LiFePO batteries? Is anyone else working on production of these? What accounts for this gap - patents (ha), secret research, materials, manufacturing prowess, all of the above?
- bergie 2y ago
  > What accounts for this gap - patents (ha) China has been the country filing the most patents for a while now. "While innovators from China continue to file nearly half of all global patent applications, the country’s growth rate dipped for a second consecutive year from 6.8% in 2021 to 3.1% in 2022. Meantime, patent applications by residents of India grew by 31.6% in 2022, extending an 11-year run of growth unmatched by any other country among the top 10 filers." https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2023/article_0013.html https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2023/article_0013...
- bgnn 2y ago
  It's not only battery technology. I'm in chip design and they are dominating academic research in this area for the last 5-6 years, together with Korea and Taiwan. It's 70% China now and their research is good.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Single chart answer: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61843 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61843 The United States is basically self-sufficient on oil. Therefore it doesn't have to take the EV transition seriously. In China, there isn't a local powerbase dependent on oil profits, or an oil-based car culture, or a local politically connected dealer network sitting in the way. China is making EVs work because getting off oil dependency matters there. The US is removing Federal charging points because it is not serious about EVs. Everything follows from there.
tim333 2y ago
There's a little more background in https://cnevpost.com/2025/02/15/byd-demonstration-use-all-solid-state-batteries-2027/ https://cnevpost.com/2025/02/15/byd-demonstration-use-all-so... In April 2024, CATL said the were working on prototypes and made some by Nov. They were saying conventional batteries topped out at 350 Wh/kg while solid state could potentially go to 500+ BYD's tech is similar based on sulfide electrolytes. They still seem to have problems with cost and making them in volume.
wordofx 2y ago
Now they just need to build a decent car.
- locusm 2y ago
  Drove the Seal round a track recently - exceptional bang for buck.
- thecleaner 2y ago
  They are much better than Teslas, which are b generally shit cars.
  - wordofx 2y ago
    I would never waste money on a Tesla. But this is simply not true.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    I drove Atto3 not long and while build quality was ok, the tech and aesthetics inside were basically kitsch. Also owner complained about issues he had. Basically you get what you pay for - smaller and cheaper car.
mikrotikker 2y ago
Yea I won't be trusting any Chinese batteries. I've seen too many videos of BYDs exploding or catching fire after locking the occupants inside.
- simjnd 2y ago
  Thank god we've never seen videos of Tesla cars exploding or catching fire. Clearly American batteries are superior.
  - mikrotikker 2y ago
    I've never seen one. I've seen dozens of Chinese cars exploding.

232 points by teleforce 2y ago

This is just pilot production is the first of many steps towards mass production. They don’t expect actual production until 2027. It even mentions that CATL is at roughly the same stage. So while good news its still going to take some time to get these into production cars and to get the costs down.

jillesvangurp 2y ago
Exactly. In order to be able to start production in 2027 they'd have to logically be quite far with the development of their battery cells to be able to say with confidence they'll be ready for that in 2027. You see the same with announcements from other manufacturers like CATL, Factorial, Quantumscape, Toyota, etc. Most of these are talking about timelines from 2026-2028 currently. They have each been testing battery samples for years and making announcements about roughly where they think they'll be going to production. It's not like battery cells suddenly pop into existence fully formed and ready to go. There's a lot of work and problem solving that needs to happen. 2027 isn't when mass production starts but when early, low volume production begins. It takes time, and many billions, to build large scale factories. They'll want to see low scale production work first. Early batteries are likely to be scarce and expensive for a while. People have unrealistic expectations about solid state batteries in general. Currently the best selling batteries aren't those with the highest density but those with the lowest cost of materials and production. That's why LFP is so popular currently. Solid state won't change that. LFP will be widely used for years to come. A logical place for relatively expensive early solid state batteries to be used would be in aviation related use cases and maybe some high-end vehicles or sports cars. Forget about these showing up in budget cars anytime soon.
audunw 2y ago
Isn’t quantum scape at a similar stage as well?
- Gareth321 2y ago
  And Toyota: https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/ https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery... I'm hopeful that in the next few years we will see some serious range improvements across the board with EVs. Then mass adoption really takes off.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    Toyota has been lying about having solid state batteries for the past decade. At this point, don't believe that they have them until they ship them.

underseacables 2y ago

According to the battery business CTO, BYD expects to start “mass demonstration” of solid-state batteries around 2027. However, he did not provide any information on the number of prototype cells produced to date. Awesome if true, but I'll believe it when I see it. Until then like similar announcements from Toyota and others, I'll hold my enthusiasm.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
at least BYD is mass producing lithium-ion consumer vehicles in the interim. Toyota is just spreading FUD as a delay tactic and milking the petroleum cow
readthenotes1 2y ago
It is another Better Battery Bulletin

mi_lk 2y ago

> In theory, replacing the current liquid electrolyte in a battery cell with a solid offers a number of advantages. As the flammable liquid electrolyte is no longer required, solid-state cells are generally safer. At the same time, higher energy densities and more power are possible, resulting in a longer range and shorter charging times. In case you wonder why it can be important

uxhacker 2y ago
What difficult to find metals do these batteries need?
- throw-qqqqq 2y ago
  Maybe this can satisfy your curiosity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery#Materials https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery#Material... ?
sebazzz 2y ago
It doesn't however mean this battery won't go up in flames when there is an unprotected short. It has X kWh stored in it that must and will be released in a way when a short happens.

kubb 2y ago

[flagged]

bigthymer 2y ago
Theoretically, you could short TSLA in the same amount that you own it within the ETF. This would be functionally equivalent to owning a custom market cap ETF minus TSLA.
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
  It's not. If you're shorting, you're paying to borrow the stock.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  With the difference that you could get wiped out on the short ? Edit: I was wrong, if ETF has same amount of Tesla it should even out.
  - Imustaskforhelp 2y ago
    yea literally my exact thought. Wish there was some better financial instrument for such purpose instead of shorting.
    - dgacmu 2y ago
      But you won't - you "own" an equal number of shares of TSLA indirectly through the index fund. If TSLA goes up, that part of your ETF has gone up. You're just being simultaneously long and short the same stock. The only difference between that and "not owning TSLA" is that you're paying a bit to borrow the shares -- about 0.41% annually, right now.
    - csomar 2y ago
      Options.
  - cthor 2y ago
    You can short without tail risk, e.g. buying puts.

louwrentius 2y ago

> However, BYD does not expect series production in the near future. That's the most important part of this article I believe.

Animats 2y ago
Yes. Solid state battery prototypes do work and are available as expensive prototypes, but nobody has a low-cost volume production process yet. Here's the lab-scale process of making a solid state cell, from the Fraunhofer Institute.[1] This is how different battery chemistries are tried. Honda has announced that they have a demo version of their solid state battery pilot plant in test.[2] There are low-detail pictures of the interior of the plant. Hyundai has announced that they will show their prototype solid state battery on March 9. They have built a pilot plant. They're thinking motorcycles before cars. EHang demoed a version of their flying car with solid state batteries a few months ago.[3] They got 48 minutes of flight time. (EHang's flying car is a scaled-up battery powered quadrotor drone with 16 props. They've been flying them for years now, but flight time was too short for it to be useful.) CATL says that the maturity of the process is at 4 on a scale of 9.[4] Large amounts of money are being spent in multiple countries to push this technology through to production. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SVrp8N-1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SVrp8N-1M [2] https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/january/honda-solid-state-battery-factory-plans/ https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/january/ho... [3] https://www.ehang.com/news/1137.html https://www.ehang.com/news/1137.html [4] https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2024/11/11/catl-bet-on-solid-state-becomes-reality https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2024/11/11/catl-bet-o...

ksec 2y ago

Considering Lithium ‘semi-solid-state battery’ (SSSB) already does 25% to 45% higher capacity with roadmap at 55% next year and double the battery capacity before 2030. I wonder what could we expect from ‘all-solid-state batteries’ (ASSB). Most people think current AI development is the most important research, I actually think ASSB ( or any massive battery improvement ) would bring us far more real life, quality improvement with things that previously were not possible.

baq 2y ago
Economically viable safe methane fuel cells would be revolutionary, too.
- number6 2y ago
  Fusion!
- audunw 2y ago
  If we’re could get a breakthrough in fuel cells it’d be even nicer if it was an efficient fuel cell for a liquid fuel. And to get an efficient way to make it from CO2 and electricity. Though I think for ground transportation, batteries will always be preferable.
  - tastyfreeze 2y ago
    Direct methanol fuel cells are a thing. It may not fit your definition of efficient but that is the technology I think should be pursued. There are multiple biological, chemical and electrochemical pathways to produce methanol. That means that there could be an economic way to produce it nearly everywhere. Another interesting technology is redox flow batteries. The fluid itself is charged. Fluid storage can be sized to the charge/use requirements. Or you can haul in "charged" fluid. But since the fluid is not consumed, discharged fluid would need to be taken away. Making hauling is less efficient.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Still releases carbon. Better than ICE and gasoline, but the cheapest methane is still from the ground.

fnord77 2y ago

> A truly large-scale introduction of solid-state batteries could possibly only take place after 2030, Sun is quoted in the reports So they're a bit behind Toyota

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
Everyone else is behind Toyota in promising EV breakthroughs "any year now". Announcements are their main EV product.

andy_xor_andrew 2y ago

on this topic, I have been wondering lately - what's with China's dominance in the battery science area? Is it still true that they're the only ones who can make LiFePO batteries? Is anyone else working on production of these? What accounts for this gap - patents (ha), secret research, materials, manufacturing prowess, all of the above?

bergie 2y ago
> What accounts for this gap - patents (ha) China has been the country filing the most patents for a while now. "While innovators from China continue to file nearly half of all global patent applications, the country’s growth rate dipped for a second consecutive year from 6.8% in 2021 to 3.1% in 2022. Meantime, patent applications by residents of India grew by 31.6% in 2022, extending an 11-year run of growth unmatched by any other country among the top 10 filers." https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2023/article_0013.html https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2023/article_0013...
bgnn 2y ago
It's not only battery technology. I'm in chip design and they are dominating academic research in this area for the last 5-6 years, together with Korea and Taiwan. It's 70% China now and their research is good.
pjc50 2y ago
Single chart answer: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61843 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61843 The United States is basically self-sufficient on oil. Therefore it doesn't have to take the EV transition seriously. In China, there isn't a local powerbase dependent on oil profits, or an oil-based car culture, or a local politically connected dealer network sitting in the way. China is making EVs work because getting off oil dependency matters there. The US is removing Federal charging points because it is not serious about EVs. Everything follows from there.

tim333 2y ago

There's a little more background in https://cnevpost.com/2025/02/15/byd-demonstration-use-all-solid-state-batteries-2027/ https://cnevpost.com/2025/02/15/byd-demonstration-use-all-so... In April 2024, CATL said the were working on prototypes and made some by Nov. They were saying conventional batteries topped out at 350 Wh/kg while solid state could potentially go to 500+ BYD's tech is similar based on sulfide electrolytes. They still seem to have problems with cost and making them in volume.

wordofx 2y ago

Now they just need to build a decent car.

locusm 2y ago
Drove the Seal round a track recently - exceptional bang for buck.
thecleaner 2y ago
They are much better than Teslas, which are b generally shit cars.
- wordofx 2y ago
  I would never waste money on a Tesla. But this is simply not true.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  I drove Atto3 not long and while build quality was ok, the tech and aesthetics inside were basically kitsch. Also owner complained about issues he had. Basically you get what you pay for - smaller and cheaper car.

mikrotikker 2y ago

Yea I won't be trusting any Chinese batteries. I've seen too many videos of BYDs exploding or catching fire after locking the occupants inside.

simjnd 2y ago
Thank god we've never seen videos of Tesla cars exploding or catching fire. Clearly American batteries are superior.
- mikrotikker 2y ago
  I've never seen one. I've seen dozens of Chinese cars exploding.