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Ask HN: Do US tech firms realize the backlash growing in Europe?

• 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  Is there a European alternative to HN.
• rvnx 2y ago
  Tesla FSD wont be authorized in Europe, this will be one direct consequence of all of that. In addition, tariffs will be put on cars coming from the US. Plus, US is now recognized as a very unreliable partner in terms of defense, that Europe regrets buying their systems.
  • alanfranz 2y ago
    Will this really happen? Or will the US prevent Europe from doing that by saying “then defend from Russia all by yourself?”
    • dukeyukey 2y ago
      The US is already effectively saying that.
      • alabastervlog 2y ago
        Yeah when you unilaterally give up your largest bargaining chip, you stop getting any say in what happens.
        • dukeyukey 2y ago
          Which ironically means the US also loses it's leverage. They're already threatening to functionally (if not actually) withdraw from NATO and economically split off via tariffs. The next step is actual invasion, which while sorta-kinda has been talked about with Greenland, probably won't happen.
          • ben_w 2y ago
            I can see Trump putting hostile troops in Greenland. Tiny population despite the size, and I think Trump (at least) does not believe Europe would respond seriously. I don't even know how Europe would respond to that, and I live in Berlin. Canada… not so much. For all the talk, he'd be absolutely screwed if he tried. If you think Fentanyl is a problem now, wait until it's supplied for free by drones sent by Canadian civilians paying for it out of pocket because they've never heard of the Geneva Convention or the Chemical Weapons Convention. (Harder done than said, of course; if it was that easy to mess with populations, western Russia would be high as a kite right now).
            • dybber 2y ago
              Europe will respond with drastic economic sanctions that will act quickly. Tariffs are slow to make a difference, but EU have prepared what they call an economic “bazooka”, that will very quickly hit US economy if force is used against a member state.
              • ben_w 2y ago
                Sanctions, even well targeted ones, as the only consequence for an invasion, seems to me to likely be a risk Trump is willing to take. Even if the sanctions would include, e.g. all Trump assets (like the Scottish golf course) being seized.
    • lompad 2y ago
      That's already expected. Right now, preparations are made for nuclear (re-)armament of europe. Germany in particular is working towards that at this moment [EDIT: politically. not in the "actively preparing weapons"-phase.]. Also, france has a first-strike policy. So even without US troops, europe will be fine. A sizable part of the population has wanted the US out of especially germany for a looong time now, so those movements have become pretty popular again. I haven't heard "ami go home" in a long time, but right now it's common.
      • blargthorwars 2y ago
        >>france has a first-strike policy. It's served us well having a member of NATO saying they'll go full-on nuts. One of the best deterrents ever. Thanks France, with love, USA.
      • croemer 2y ago
        > Right now, preparations are made for nuclear (re-)armament of europe. Germany in particular is working towards that at this moment. Can you provide a source for this? It would be big if true, in particular the Germany claim. I've not heard it and couldn't find things with a quick google search. Germany is currently already doing nuclear weapons sharing with the US, i.e. they have access to US nuclear weapons though of course with some restrictions. What you wrote sounds like Germany would be working towards having new nuclear weapons to be produced in Europe without US involvement and shared without US restrictions.
        • lompad 2y ago
          Sure, here from a german public broadcaster[1]. The political work for it is being done right now. However, I reread my comment and realized, it could be interpreted as "actively working at the weapons" instead of the political framework. My apologies in that case. [1] https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/deutschland/nuklearwaffen-schutz-deutschland-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/deutschland/nuklearwa...
          • croemer 2y ago
    • weatherlight 2y ago
      The US has basically said that. It doesn't matter though, because at the end of the day, dramatic foreign policy shifts and realignments only make the U.S. even less attractive as an ally and a partner. Decades of relationships are being strained in the attempt of mending ties with a state that never really did much to advance America's interests in the modern era. And it could all be completely undone in four years. The whip lash of back and forth, radical shifts in policy, are as damaging as the acts that directly alienate America's global partners.
    • PUSH_AX 2y ago
      Bidens aid undoubtedly moved the needle, but that’s over and from what I’ve heard weapon deliveries have already stopped. So I guess my question is aren’t Europe already by themselves?
      • croemer 2y ago
        Trump can still make things worse, e.g. explicitly saying "If Putin invaded Estonia, US would stay out of it" or things like this. He hasn't said that (I hope) so there's still some strategic ambiguity - i.e. it's not clear for Putin if Trump is just uttering empty words re letting Europe go or whether he would in the end do defend.
    • antirez 2y ago
      That's not a problem, US is doing that, effectively marginalizing the importance they will have in the future.
    • nathanlied 2y ago
      This is already the expectation from our leaders. It is the belief of a good % of EU leaders that, if Russia were to push into Poland and the Baltic states, and Article 5 was invoked, the US would not respond. Or at least not without some Versailles Treaty-level extortion, as they're trying to do with Ukraine.
    • ben_w 2y ago
      > Will this really happen? Or will the US prevent Europe from doing that by saying “then defend from Russia all by yourself?” If push came to shove, the only ally Ukraine needs to equal Russia (as it is today) is Poland. They'd rather not have to as it would be expensive, but Poland could match 100% of current outside assistance for Ukraine[0] for a smaller fraction of their GDP than Ukraine itself is currently spending on the war[1]. The USA and Russia agreeing with each other to carve up Ukraine would be a much harder battle. Well, it would be harder unless DOGE actually does make good on the claim of $2T cuts, because the only way of reaching $2T without touching the "mandatory" budget (mandatory = social security etc.) is to delete the entire armed forces and the CIA (and basically everything else) and just under half the interest payments on the loans, which in turn means they'd have no power to carve anything up. [0] $380bn over the first 2 years according to Wikipedia, so lets say $190bn/year [1] Ukraine plans to spend ~$53.7 billion in 2025, about 26% GDP Poland's GDP is $915, 26% of that would be $237.9 billion / year.
    • computerthings 2y ago
      Oh, we're already looking at the likelihood of Trump arming Russia and joining the war on the side of Putin. But for some people, although probably a minority, that just increases the resolve. They simply will never be part of something like this: https://bsky.app/profile/doctoroxford.bsky.social/post/3liqwkie3kc24 https://bsky.app/profile/doctoroxford.bsky.social/post/3liqw...
  • ben_w 2y ago
    Given the constant promises and slow rate of improvement, there's a high chance Tesla's FSD was never going to be authorised in Europe even absent this.
    • whynotminot 2y ago
      I think this is true. Given the regulatory environment, it's hard to imagine FSD ever getting approved -- even if it actually does get truly safer than the average driver! Europe does not want innovation. And it will not take the (admittedly non trivial) risks required to have it.
      • culi 2y ago
        BlueCruise and BMW's systems are both approved. The truth is Tesla is simply behind on self-driving tech. In part due to Musk's insistence on relying solely on cameras without use of radars
  • miklosz 2y ago
    There's already 10% tariff on cars from US imported into Europe. But somehow I have feeling that even if it would be reduced to 0%, it wouldn't make a big difference Cars of US brands are generally terrible, not sure how they fulfill EU emission standards, have poor MPG which with EU gas prices are very expensive in maintenance. Maybe Japanese, Korean or EU brands manufactured US could do better.
    • loloquwowndueo 2y ago
      They probably fulfill EU emission standards the same way Volkswagen diesels did. (Joking)
    • ojhughes 2y ago
      Fords are very popular in the UK and my Mondeo hasn’t missed a beat in years. the European models aren’t made in US which speaks volumes
      • black_puppydog 2y ago
        > the European models aren’t made in US which speaks volumes No wonder; the US tanks could just roll over one of the reasonably-sized european cars...
      • iamtheworstdev 2y ago
        not to be a contrarian but I'm assuming that's European made Fords? Because, in America, Ford right now leads in total recall expenditures of all manufacturers. It's been an issue of theirs for two or three years now.
        • miklosz 2y ago
          Yeah, I meant cars made for US market from US brands. True, that Ford is US brand with strong European presence, but I think the model line is quite different. Jeeps getting more popular in EU, since it's part of Stellantis now (company headquartered in EU), but has engines for European market etc.
  • pavlov 2y ago
    I have a Tesla with so-called FSD in Europe, and it still feels like it’s ten years away from being road-safe. It can’t even recognize speed limit signs correctly. I bought this car six years ago paying for the FSD feature upfront, and since then Tesla and their CEO have been constantly lying about it. I’ll never buy another car from this company just for this reason. I think Musk probably sees the writing on the wall. Tesla’s brand is destroyed in Europe and they can’t ship these promised advanced features in this market. But he doesn’t mind giving up the European market because he’s got a sweet deal at home where his businesses are now part of a 1930s-style union between corporations and authoritarian government. The gains from that arrangement far outweigh the headaches of trying to sell cars globally.
    • qwerpy 2y ago
      Counterpoint, I helped my father buy a model Y and it helps him do the 2 hour drive to visit his grandchildren. The FSD marketing has been a bit over the top but it’s still the best system by far.
      • pavlov 2y ago
        In Europe? I believe it works better in the US. Elsewhere in the world it’s still practically useless, yet they’ve been selling it for years on the pretense that it’s just around the corner. Cruise control on a Volkswagen is smarter than “FSD” on a Tesla. It’s just sad for a 7,500 euro feature.
        • qwerpy 2y ago
          They probably should not have offered it in Europe until they figured it out in their home country. Too many different things to handle in all the different countries.
          • Sammi 2y ago
            Yeah but they did, and now the Europeans hate them. They ripped people off and people are pissed.
  • culi 2y ago
    Tesla FSD should never have been authorized in the US tbh. The safety record is horrifying. The whole reason Google didn't buy Tesla out early on is because they found out how much of their autonomous driving tech claims were all just marketing. Mercedes-Benz and many other vehicles are way ahead of Tesla on this front but Tesla still goes the most in on marketing this feature
• fullstick 2y ago
  That's honestly happening here, too. So many of my acquaintances are dropping big tech reliances. Some of us are building our own tools as work around where we can.
  • booleandilemma 2y ago
    I thought that people on HN always did that as a hobby anyway?
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
• aman-pro 2y ago
  Any links to read what people in EU are saying?
  • dukeyukey 2y ago
    Check out Andreas Klinger on Twitter, and people he's retweeting and talking about. That should give you a good overview.
    • jebarker 2y ago
      > on Twitter It's like rain on your wedding day
      • dukeyukey 2y ago
        X.com is just godawful branding. I'm doing it a favour by even mentioning it.
  • julianpye 2y ago
    The FT Editorial Board: "America has turned" - https://www.ft.com/content/1511aa42-a9ad-4952-99c8-98bea07d0414 https://www.ft.com/content/1511aa42-a9ad-4952-99c8-98bea07d0... Max Hastings: The trauma of Trump: can we still do business with his America? - https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/the-trauma-of-trump-can-we-still-do-business-with-his-america-xkkwjm2tk https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/the-trau... FT: US tech will pay a price for Donald Trump’s approval - https://www.ft.com/content/2347e5d3-cbc2-4128-a108-bb89558e34a8 https://www.ft.com/content/2347e5d3-cbc2-4128-a108-bb89558e3... FT: How Washington plans to defend the dollar - this is about Crypto - https://www.ft.com/content/bfafb8f7-bd1c-48bb-85f4-8ba25475c0a3 https://www.ft.com/content/bfafb8f7-bd1c-48bb-85f4-8ba25475c... FT: Donald Trump considers tarriffs to counter Big Tech service taxes: - https://www.ft.com/content/558b5a20-c25e-483d-8fdc-bbfd2923afd1 https://www.ft.com/content/558b5a20-c25e-483d-8fdc-bbfd2923a... This is just the tip of the iceberg.
    • ctrlp 2y ago
      I suggest you expand your information sources to include contrary perspectives. These read like the typical hysteriaporn to freak normies out. It would be equivalent to my sharing supporting links from the NYTimes or WaPo.
• seydor 2y ago
  Good headlines for sure, but i wonder: Suppose the war ends. Will the Europeans keep boycotting the cheap russian gas? Tarriffs are a nuisance to the US - the US doesn't export much.
  • clvx 2y ago
    Aerospace is a big deal. Airbus relies on P&W and Collins Aerospace (both part of Raytheon).
    • gloomyday 2y ago
      The global supply chain is enormously complex. US companies depend on European companies as well, which makes the whole thing much more stupid.
  • caminante 2y ago
    Did you mean the opposite? US to EU gas trade is insane right now due to pricing and a 20% tariff won't change anything.
  • rbetts 2y ago
    The United States, by total value, is the second largest exporter in the world, with $1.86 trillion dollars in exports in 2023. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa.
  • paldepind2 2y ago
    > Suppose the war ends. Will the Europeans keep boycotting the cheap russian gas? I think they absolutely will, yes. It will cost some money, just like spending more money on defense will, but from what I can see, no one in the European politic elite imagines a world where we can go back to buying gas from Russia.
  • itzprintz 2y ago
    I believe the stark realization over here in the EU is, that strategic dependencies we created either towards the East (Russia, e.g. gas) or the West (the US, e.g. defence), are making us too vulnerable.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• Daril 2y ago
  For what it counts, I deleted my Amazon account today (and lost all my Kindle books in the process), I'll never buy anything from them again. I'll close my S3 storage account with a US company in the coming months : I'll switch to a German service. In the coming weeks, I'll also delete my GMail account (my devices are already deGoogled since many years). There a lot of European alternatives that respect our privacy, our values and principles.
  • Daril 2y ago
    From a software developer viewpoint, my biggest worry is about GitHub, owned by Microsoft. I self host my open source code with Forgejo.
    • croemer 2y ago
      Can you explain what exactly your worry is with GitHub? If you have your repos locally, you can always go somewhere else if/when something happens with GitHub. Except if you rely on things like Github actions or other features that are harder to move.
      • culi 2y ago
        GitHub Actions, the issues system, pull request history, discussions, wiki. Truth is, GitHub has a whole suite of really great features that's hard to move. Especially for open sourced projects/communities
      • Daril 2y ago
        Well, one day MS could shut everything down or charge a lot of money to continue using the services. Almost all open source projects are currently hosted on Github (and rely on their services). Yes, the code is replicated on thousands of machines around the web, but this concentration of control by a single company is extremely dangerous in my opinion. The way events are unfolding these days, I'm really worried about what could happen. Take for example Starlink and Ukraine... The USA threatened to shut down the internet service if Ukraine won't sign the rare minerals deal. A deal that would make Ukraine a colony of USA.
• globalnode 2y ago
  I was just thinking today how long will it be until Windows is turned into a weapon. I know I know, but its not really paranoid to think that anymore is it? Imagine the chaos around the world caused by Windows machines simultaneously reformatting hard disks except in America.
  • debacle 2y ago
    Windows is already a weapon.
  • whynotminot 2y ago
    This is a strange statement given it's the UK, not the US, that currently poses the greatest threat to OS weaponization via what they're trying to make Apple do with backdoor access.
    • ben_w 2y ago
      UK is trying to use it for surveillance. While it's hypothetical at this point to suggest the US mandating a built-in mechanism to wipe any specified hard drive by remote command, the economic danger from that is much greater than the damage from spying: the latter allows unfair competition; but given how widespread systems are, the former shuts down a country, could kill millions by starvation just from messing with logistics systems.
  • unosama 2y ago
    It's really funny to me that people are so partisan. You only worry about backdoors under Trump? As if the CIA has not be orchestrating coups around the world for half a century?
    • amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      Of course they have, but not usually to their supposed allies. If realignment severs the ties between Europe and the US, then that no longer holds. Nothing partisan about that.
  • 2y ago
• mistermaestro 2y ago
  From a European Saas firm. I am reviewing technology partners for my firm, and due to the possible trade wars and polticial climate we have started to treat US-centric partner as a negative. That is just the business part of things, the removal of DEI at all cost in conjunction with the Russian dealings and the statements from JD Vance are also a bit hard to be positive about. We like the companies but the noise increases risk as opposed to European partners.
• bbor 2y ago
  The big companies do, thus the pressure from Vance earlier this week on the EU dropping any regulations the US doesn’t agree with. Obviously that plan is questionable in terms of efficacy and morality, but it’s definitely in progress
• abraxas 2y ago
  Never thought I'd live to see the end of Pax Americana and yet here we are. To give up this amount of control and soft power just to cozy up to the corpse of the Soviet union is not the universe branch I expected to find myself in. You yanks might think this is some display of your upper hand. Just wait until the civilized world turns its back on the greenback as the reserve currency. You will be so fucked.
  • tway223 2y ago
    Something definitely doesn’t smell right for Trump/Musk.
  • caminante 2y ago
    It'd take a lot more than that. EU has lagged US due to systemic issues like over regulation and limited investments. See Draghi's report.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I think it's more a blip for Pax Americana for four years or so.
• whynotminot 2y ago
  Switching search engines to what? AI-powered search also created by American companies? America's image is toxic to everyone right now (including its own citizens). But I don't really see that many valid alternatives. It's not like Europe has done much to cultivate any kind of relevant software industry.
  • VWWHFSfQ 2y ago
    Maybe this will galvanize EU into actually creating something instead of just importing and regulating American tech. Doubt it though
  • redserk 2y ago
    I don’t understand this notion suggesting Americans are the only people on earth capable of software development. This comes up in various threads about China, too. For independent indexes, Brave’s search came from a German company and Yandex certainly isn’t American.
    • whynotminot 2y ago
      There's a certain irony in switching to a Russian search engine... because America aligned itself more closely with Russia.
      • ben_w 2y ago
        It would indeed be ironic, even though it also serves as an existence proof.
  • Kudos 2y ago
    As a European, completely eliminating corporate US tech doesn't have to be an all or nothing goal. Switching from Google to DDG or Kagi is an improvement even if they're just a frontend for Bing. It's a massive opportunity for European-based companies to compete. I expect a lot more funding to start materialising here as a result.
  • antirez 2y ago
• vvpan 2y ago
  If Europe somewhat deregulated startup stage businesses an countries issued more visas to engineers it could probably turn a lot of things around. So far European founders have been moving to US. But these days I imagine I'm not the only one who doesn't want to work in the shadow of US technofeudalist oligarchy and receive money from people like Marc Andreessen.
  • kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
    Could you point out specific examples of what is too regulated? I never understood this complaint. True, I also never bothered digging into it because I started out with the belief that it's just a talking point. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.
    • fc417fc802 2y ago
      Not sure but I've read that employee termination rules and employee compensation requirements are problematic for startups over there. That for a company at that stage certain risks can be existential rather than just "win some lose some" so having them forced on you is not a good situation.
  • robocat 2y ago
    I believe there is a lack of startups in New Zealand (the example I'm familiar with) because it simply doesn't make any financial sense to begin a startup[1]. The rewards are not enough to cover the risks. The USA has a culture of startups because there you often get financially rewarded for winning. Startups are mostly a loser's game in New Zealand (Disclosure: I'm a very minor winner at the startup game over here - I have at least some skin in the game and some practical learning). Improving regulations would help - however governments seem to lack the skills/incentives/motivation to choose good compromises. > receive money from people like Marc Andreessen. Money doesn't actually have morals: the point of money is it allows all of us to choose between morally conflicting choices based on prices and our bank balance. Money is a fungible representation of limited resources. I've never met Marc, but his writing seems fairly disagreeable to me. Part of the reason Europe is economically losing is that Europe doesn't play economics to win. Systems have their own emergent properties and Europe seems hell bent on regulating their systems so that European countries gift control to the USA for critical things. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43099056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43099056
• unosama 2y ago
  The majority of Americans do not care and do not really want US tech to be global. The majority of Americans are ashamed of US soft power and the way we meddle with other countries constantly. While loss of dollar hegemony will have economic implicatiosn for the US, American's just don't really care about having dollar hegemony. We don't care about any of these things or what Europe is doing.
  • 0xbs0d 2y ago
    Tbh it's the same sentiment in Europe as well. We really want to stop caring who is your new/next president what side of the bed did he wake up on.
  • cyberlurker 2y ago
    Correction, ignorant and misinformed Americans don’t want these things and do not care. Let’s stop pretending that the individuals who voted for this administration actually wanted most of what it is doing. The majority voted off of feelings and will not like the end result. There is a lot of explaining away the stupidity and I find it really annoying. It’s not a difference of opinion that Tariffs will cause a rise in prices, no matter what the current administration says.
  • ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    > "The majority of Americans do not care and do not really want US tech to be global." They will care very, very much when it bites them in terms of higher prices and loss of jobs because of decreased tech exports. Dollar hegemony has benefitted the US economy tremendously over the past few decades; money rushed _into_ US dollar denominated holdings in the 2008 crash as one big example.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
• olalonde 2y ago
  What did the US do to Europe this week? Are you referring to Trump withdrawing support for Ukraine?
  • dopidopHN 2y ago
    Vance came to Munich, and promoted European fascist political parties. I wish I was kidding.
    • hagbard_c 2y ago
      [flagged]
    • Tadpole9181 2y ago
      Sorry for putting this as a reply to you, the other comment is flagged and dead but I'm so upset I just need to throw this adjacent to it so people who are reading know just how bad faith this person is... --- It's beyond clear that the AfD are a far right fascist group. So clear that it has caused the majority of their leadership to change - explicitly citing them being anti-democracy and pro-russian and extremist - and the actual government's protection arm to consider then a threat to the nation's democracy: > In January 2022, after a lost power struggle, party leader Jörg Meuthen resigned his party chairmanship with immediate effect and left the AfD, as he claimed he came to acknowledge that the party had developed very far to the right with totalitarian traits and in large parts was no longer based on the liberal democratic basic order. Former party chairman and co-founder of the AfD, Lucke, had left the party in 2015 with the same remark. ... > When party founder Bernd Lucke had left the AfD in 2015, he cited, among other reasons an "anti-western, decidedly pro-Russian foreign and security policy orientation" as well as increasing calls to "pose the 'system question' with regard to our parliamentary democracy" as reasons for his departure from the party. ... > In March 2020, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (German: Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz) classified AfD's far-right nationalistic faction known as Der Flügel as "a right-wing extremist endeavor against the free democratic basic order" and as "not compatible with the Basic Law", placing it under government surveillance. --- That other commenter is either ignorant to the point of negligence or a fascist themselves.
  • 2y ago
• le-mark 2y ago
  Is the backlash worse than the Bush invasion of Iraq in 2003? Is it worse than the first Trump administration? Genuinely curious. The reality is the 50% of voters who DID not vote for the current president are just as shell shocked as the Europeans. Only we KNEW it was coming.
  • dralley 2y ago
    Not a European, but yes. The US is actively siding with Russia against Europe during the largest war in Europe since WWII, and using the threat of revoking access to American tech (Starlink) and weapons to force them into a terrible and exploitative agreement whose only beneficiaries are the US and Russia. Europeans now need to realistically consider that working with US technology companies is like relying on Russian gas, because those threats have actually been made. Meanwhile our President also keeps threatening to invade sovereign territory (Greenland) of a NATO ally (Denmark) and using language w/r/t Canada that is almost indistinguishable from how Russia talked about Ukraine a decade ago. And Canadians are fucking pissed about it. It's very, very different than his first term or even Iraq.
  • 0xbs0d 2y ago
    It's much, much worse than both of those. And we view it more like, only 1/3 of Americans have voted against this while 1/3 voted for it and 1/3 was ok with that. So yeah, the resentment and anger towards the US and it's citizens is growing.
  • julianpye 2y ago
    It's totally different. There was negative public sentiment, but the diplomatic relations still were stable and good. Germany wanted to be convinced, but could not be. Tony Blair went with Bush. This time it is diplomats that are raising the flags. It actually has not yet arrived in the public sphere as drastically as it has in the policy side.
  • kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
    [dead]
  • miklosz 2y ago
• toss1 2y ago
  Good information, and I see no sign it has been noticed in the US (which is why your report is good info). The first question is how broad is this shift; is it really everywhere on the street or just in the "early adopters"? The next question is how durable is the trend? The things I've noticed here are reports of AfD rapidly losing 5% in the polls after Vance spoke in Munich, and a French right-wing leader cancelling his planned speech at CPAC after Bannon did a Nazi salute in his talk. When the US wannabe-Nazis are too toxic for European pro-fascists, that is saying something...
  • misja111 2y ago
    The shift is not that broad at all. True, in some politically and technology aware circles, a lot of people are shifting. But the vast majority of people isn't aware of what's happening, doesn't feel like putting effort to change, or even agrees with Trump & Musk.
  • dopidopHN 2y ago
    Trust build slowly and erode quickly. I don’t know about people usage of tech. But it’s now really clear that the US is not a reliable ally. ( not even getting into politics, just stability wise : it’s clear that a change of regime can have the country do a 180 in term of foreign policies. And it’s not a good look )
  • notyourwork 2y ago
    I suspect it is far too early to tell. In 6 months the data may be an indication of something. Right now, it’s just not sufficient amount of time to conclude.
• misja111 2y ago
  I think you are hugely overestimating the impact in Europe. Some politically aware are switching to non-US big tech, if possible. But the vast majority either doesn't care about politics, think it's too much effort, or even agrees with what is happening in the US right now.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
• shermand89 2y ago
  European here. It doesn't matter lol
• 827a 2y ago
  > do they take it seriously or believe there is no alternative to US tech There isn't, broadly speaking. Oh yeah, gonna use OpenEuroLLM? Have y'all made the ePhone yet or is that still stuck in committee? Other countries will moan for a bit, no one likes having their free money and handouts taken away, then realize that US technology is still broadly the only option, and its actually quite good and even other US companies cant compete with US big tech with all of the free money here, let alone the tech-backward eurozone. Right now its the UK forcing Apple to remove Advanced Data Protection for UK citizens (not the eurozone, to be clear, but adjacent and culturally aligned) The "boycotts" are great for headlines though (don't worry, Apple's revenue this year will be larger than ever, as always). If y'all don't want to buy Teslas though, I get that; I feel the same way.
  • dopidopHN 2y ago
    iPhone is a bad example. It’s built by 10s of company accros many, mostly Asian, country.
    • 827a 2y ago
      Most stuff is. Even some people and companies in Europe had a hand in building it; at the very least I'm sure Apple has software teams there, and ASML is dutch. We're a deeply interconnected world. Few parts of it can be self-sufficient while retaining the standard of living they're used to. This is true for no region more than Europe. Europe, broadly, relies more on the productivity, output, energy, and innovation of America and Asia for their standard of living than any other region, including America and Asia on each other or on Europe. The iPhone is an interesting example because Apple's Asia sales did drop last quarter; but that drop was compensated for by a ~$3B increase in European sales. That's the trend I'd bet money on continuing. Europe doesn't have any other choice, and except on some fringe issues Europe's purported culture and values align far more with even Trump's America than China. Europe cannot afford to not pick a side in that adversarial relationship. Tbh, Europeans broadly trying to boycott American companies gives real "toddler throwing a tantrum because his parents made him eat broccoli" vibes. At best, its unserious. At worst, its only going to harm Europe. Europe should make efforts toward reducing its dependence on the rest of the world, but their leadership is deeply unserious about doing so, and even if they became serious it would take many decades to reach even the only America or Asia is at.
• xg15 2y ago
  Wishing and doing are two different things. Integration of US products and services is still incredibly deep in Europe, as is political cooperation on all layers. I don't think this can be abandoned on a whim, even if people wanted to. (Same goes for the other side of the geopolitical aisle: European politicians would have liked a much faster and much more comprehensive economic decoupling from China since at least the start of the Ukraine war. But feedback from the private sector was pretty clear that this would have been economic suicide. Hence the official stance is now "de-risking" instead of "decoupling")
  • julianpye 2y ago
    That's what they said about the German economy and Russian Gas
• legitster 2y ago
  My experience is in SaaS marketing. EMEA has always been a soft market for tech. And it's always been a cost center for regionalization and compliance. A move away from US tech is not necessarily new or surprising. But it's also not as damning to the bottom line as one would expect. I will say that the tech sector in Europe is not nearly as robust. While alternatives exist for some products, they are not likely going to find international markets of their own. (Overgeneralization, obv).
• madspindel 2y ago
  I've sold all my holdings in US companies to instead invest in STOXX Europe 600 alternatives. I know others here in Sweden that have said they have done the same. In Sweden, Russia has always been the enemy. My prediction is that France and Germany will soon join the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) and it will be the end of NATO. UK will probably join the Maximator intelligence alliance. The death of Five Eyes and NATO in 2025 was not on my bingo card. Good luck with your new alliance with the Russians, Americans!
  • weatherlight 2y ago
    I'm a dual citizen (US, Spain), I moved to Spain 1 year ago. I need to completely divest from the US.
    • mlrtime 2y ago
      You're still paying taxes.
      • weatherlight 2y ago
        ehhhh, kinda? the US and Spain have a tax agreement.
      • toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... > If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude your foreign earnings from income up to an amount that is adjusted annually for inflation ($107,600 for 2020, $108,700 for 2021, $112,000 for 2022, and $120,000 for 2023). In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts.
  • Redori 2y ago
    Enjoy underperforming the markets
• weatherlight 2y ago
  I said this else where, but, dramatic foreign policy shifts and realignments only make the U.S. even less attractive as an ally and a partner. Decades of relationships are being strained in the attempt of mending ties with a state that never really did much to advance America's interests in the modern era. And it could all be completely undone in four years. The whip lash of back and forth, radical shifts in policy, are as damaging as the acts that directly alienate America's global partners.
• rmrf100 2y ago
  Any big cloud vendor in EU?
  • Mossy9 2y ago
    https://european-alternatives.eu/category/cloud-computing-platforms https://european-alternatives.eu/category/cloud-computing-pl... lists a couple - Scaleway and UpCloud come to mind
    • mariusor 2y ago
      Stackit also (which I see there at the bottom :D).
    • rmrf100 2y ago
      Thanks, this really helps
• deadbabe 2y ago
  They will be back.
• kryptiskt 2y ago
  They don't realize anything and they don't care, all the leadership in these companies have no vision beyond goosing the next quarter's numbers. They have been promoted to the top because of their ability to meet targets, nothing else. If they see weakness in Europe they will compensate by pushing more ads, lay off some people or increase prices to keep the number go up. They are all sitting ducks for black swan events, but I don't think getting roasted in Europe will be enough to trouble them.
• browningstreet 2y ago
  I think it depends a lot on what happens in the elections 2 and 4 years from now. The world may forgive or may be very well justified in their turn. I’m in the enterprise space and there’s not a lot of open acknowledgement of changes yet. I don’t think my particular company thinks there’s a way this is good for them. To some degree I think it’s being treated as yet another line item in the long list of things that need to be managed in global companies of a certain size. I presume that the threat of retaliation (see story about X advertisers) is keeping voices quiet too. It’s different this time… it’s going to get weird. And possibly dangerous. Talk of third term, crashing the economy as a pretense for parting out the assets of the federal government, finding a reason to cancel the next election, and being the war machine for our enemies may not feel like the purview of technology companies even as they angle for federal contracts to “support” some of these things. We need more bodies at protests. Not everything announced has gone into effect, but they’re testing all the things they want to make happen. And they’re persistent. The public haven’t yet seen the spark that may light the next resistance fire. It may not feel like we have moves available to us, but public boycotts, protests/ marches, calls to our politicians, honking for peace, supporting our neighbors — these are all reps in the resistance. They are recruitment and rallying measures. They are all little tiny sparks, from which something may alight. Look for something happening today and show up.
  • stfp 2y ago
    People keep mentioning elections in two or four years, I guess assuming that the MAGA mafia could lose and be ousted. I think it’s 100% wishful thinking. There is no way they’ll let go of power peacefully. But my bet is they won’t even technically lose, thanks to an arsenal of massive disinformation, voter suppression, gerrymandering, intimidation, up to jailing opponents and so on.
    • Mossy9 2y ago
      Also a lot of the trust damage cannot be easily undone. Even if a more stable government does get appointed in 4 years, it might be too late for restoring the previous status quo
• btchpls 2y ago
  [flagged]
• dhdjruf 2y ago
  [dead]
• ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  They probably know it very well but there's not much they can do about it since the Democratic party lost so thoroughly in the last election, leaving them little ability to influence the course of events. Even something as utterly disastrous for US tech companies as the proposed tariff on semiconductors is, as far as I can tell, largely being met by silence. That's how bad the situation is.
• silverquiet 2y ago
  I'm a US Millennial and my impression is that the US has spent my adult lifetime destroying its soft power, and this week is really just a culmination of that. US tech firms do not and have never (at least in my time working for them) cared about anything other than a pathological pursuit of profit that borders on nihilistic paperclip-optimization. I believe that US firms see European tech companies as slow/lazy and think that good engineers only seek high compensation which is available to them in the US. Certainly there are some who are motivated by that, but I have known some great engineers in Europe which was one of my reasons for cautioning my American peers about pushing too hard for WFH; if they can do the job from home, then so can others in countries with lower costs of living.
  • ben_w 2y ago
    I'd say (as a European) most of the tech firms were seen as positive, for most of my life. Not perfectly so, but net. Even Facebook. Heck, even AirBnB and Uber — much as they also upset local communities that didn't want unregistered hotels, and taxi firms that weren't ready for app-based competition, people here made use of those apps to get trip options and travel options they didn't have before.
  • rsync 2y ago
    “US tech firms do not and have never (at least in my time working for them) cared about anything other than a pathological pursuit of profit that borders on nihilistic paperclip-optimization.” Ahem … large US tech firms, that is. FWIW we have had two customers (apologetically) terminate service in the past month citing nationalist concerns.
  • threatofrain 2y ago
    > US tech firms do not and have never (at least in my time working for them) cared about anything other than a pathological pursuit of profit that borders on nihilistic paperclip-optimization. If that were true then people wouldn't worry as much. It's because there is a fuck-you-and-the-world nationalistic theme going on and US tech companies are unable to escape — that makes people worry. No company in the world is a vehicle to pure financial rationalism, and no human or collection of humans are either.
• seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  It really depends on if Europe hates America more than they hate China (or even Russia). Once Europe embraces Chinese tech over American tech (eg alibaba over Amazon, WeChat over Facebook, baidu over Google, BYD over Tesla) it’s all over for the USA as a world power. If they still hate China more than the USA, then it’s somehow salvageable.
• jimmydoe 2y ago
  I feel it impacts mostly medium to large brands, which have resource to euro-wash themselves anyway.
• phl 2y ago
  I’m not making this up. I was thinking about posting the exact same question an hour ago. I am questioning my entire tech and communication stack. The first thing I did was download all my emails locally with offineimap. I can’t deny that I’m worried to get rug pulled by US companies any moment now.
• jimmar 2y ago
  > the US completely destroyed its soft power this week Soft power sounds like manipulation to me. So if we destroyed our manipulation, great. The United States has put its fingers on too many scales rather than respecting the rights of individuals in other countries to manage their affairs the way they see fit. I welcome tech competition from Europe. Let the best products and services win.
  • gcr 2y ago
    Yes, and. Something like 40% of the humanitarian contribution in the world came from USAID, and Thanos just fingersnapped it out of existence last Tuesday. Until that gap is filled, there will be tons of unnecessary suffering. A "more humane" way would have been to slowly wind down over a period of months/years, giving the market time to react. Even better would have been to work with foreign powers to spin off USAID-backed initiatives and transfer control+funding responsibility to them, but I'm just a girl with a unrealistic dream at that point
    • amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      I think it's not talked about enough that some of the new president's policies are going to lead to actual people dieing. Not just overseas, but in the US too. Maybe the folks cheering him on don't realize this, or maybe they just don't care.
      • jimmar 2y ago
        There's a big difference between sending a foreign country vaccines and organizing protests in foreign countries to further a political or economic agenda. I'm all for the former, not the latter.
        • amanaplanacanal 2y ago
          The thing is, you don't get to choose. Once somebody is elected, you get the whole package.
  • 2y ago
• sangeeth96 2y ago
  IMO, this is a great wake-up call for every country out there that over-relies on US tech and considers them a messiah. On the short term, this is going to be painful if US continues to bully and holds tech hostage but in the long term, trying to be as independent as possible will only prove to be advantageous (if done seriously and done right). China is a good example.
• postcert 2y ago
  As a US citizen I can only hope that this kickstarts alternatives and paid for options in the spaces big (ad)tech dominates here. These bloated monopolies with short lived products or soon to be acquired competitors are getting old. (And these constant layoffs and shareholder/promo driven development to a smaller degree)
• sylware 2y ago
  I use links2 and lynx web browsers. The issue in EU is Big Tech has many "minions" in public administrations and local critical online services (many dominant online services are theirs anyway). They manage to make hard dependent the "web" on their cartel of whatng web rendering engines (and their SDK).
• lukashoff 2y ago
  As an European I can confirm this is partly true. I wouldn't say it's completely destroyed it's soft power, but politically we do feel betrayed so whenever possible people would be looking to switch to non-US product. However, in business we're so intertwined with the US that it's hard to tell right now if there ever will be a justified switch. In terms of pensions - I think 99.9% of us have a huge chunk the S&P, so even though we're upset I doubt there will be any movement on that front at all. Money will win in this battle. Personally I do feel betrayed as well and for the first time in my life I've started looking for where the product I consume come from. About a third is from the US. Stopped buying them, found a European alternative. To all the Europeans out here - let them live how they want over the pond, let's use this opportunity to promote our industries and products as well as become as independent as we possibly can given our current financial and political constraints. No hard feelings at all, live and let live.
  • mdhb 2y ago
    There’s really not a neutral position here that involves just ignoring what happens in the US, that is entirely wishful thinking but completely detached from actual geopolitical realities
  • Sammi 2y ago
    European stocks are up and up since Trump was elected, while American stocks are chopping sideways or down. There's a shift in the stock market. The market hates uncertainty and America is a big frikkin question mark atm (is the polite way of saying it). Here's a particular dutch pension fund that dropped their us stocks: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/dutch-pension-fund-abp-sells-all-alphabet-meta-shares-ceo-tells-newspaper-fd-2025-02-17/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/dutch-pension-fund-ab...
    • lukashoff 2y ago
      Could this be related to the geo-politics or just a usual dump of an overheated stock? Hard to tell without a tsunami of stock dumping and portfolio re-balancing
  • 2y ago
• ctrlp 2y ago
  Trying to start a flamewar on HN will get you flagged, my friend.
  • julianpye 2y ago
    It's unfortunate that the thread was flagged, I did not want to give the impression of trying to 'start a flamewar'. I am a real transatlanticist - I was on the green card path (5 yrs with H1Bs), but returned to Europe for family reasons. I don't want this split - I want to know, if people see it as an issue and I want to know the possible consequences and workarounds and how we can work together.
  • hagbard_c 2y ago
    [flagged]
• djkivi 2y ago
  Canada too. Border crossings down significantly over the recent long weekend: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fewer-canadians-travelling-southbound-1.7465260 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fewer-canadi...
  • morkalork 2y ago
    Wow those numbers don't lie.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• urup2l8 2y ago
  I’m an unhappy American. With D-ump’s anti science and education stance Europe (and china) will have an unprecedented chance to lure some great talent. With grants being suspended, colleges, government science, and technology professionals will have to find employment, Europe would be very attractive to a lot of educated people in the USA. My daughter holds a phd and is on the chopping block, I plan to tell her and her husband if they get job offers in Europe, I would gladly sell everything here and move to Europe too!
• byyll 2y ago
  I am European and I've never even seen anyone talking about it outside the internet. Majority of people do not know and do not care.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    Thanks for this, as an American I was stressing out. But if it's only Europeans with internet access talking about it we should be fine. Let's just hope Europeans don't start using the internet.
    • lolinder 2y ago
      Assuming that you commented in good faith and legitimately didn't understand: Their point is that OP likely underestimates the effect of their particular filter bubble on their perception of the universality of the discussion and sentiment.
      • AlecSchueler 2y ago
        Why do you think that's more likely than the top level comments underestimating the effect of "thought leaders?" Sure, "most people" aren't talking about divesting their stocks or moving their manufacturing contracts, but where they ever talking about investments in the first place?
        • lolinder 2y ago
          I didn't weigh in on the merits of OP's argument, I'm clarifying what that argument was for the parent commenter, who apparently believed that the OP thinks Europeans don't use the internet (assuming they commented in good faith). I'd be happy to see other people commenting on the merits of the argument instead of attacking at best a gross misunderstanding or at worst a straw man.
• thesuavefactor 2y ago
  I ditched my Google account a while ago. That was tricky because I used it to log in to several websites. I fortunately also got rid of Facebook a while ago. This gave me a lot more time back. It's difficult at first, because there's a little fomo, but now I am very happy. I never started with all the other social media. No Instagram, no Twitter. So that makes it easy. My computers have always run Linux, very happy with that. Streaming services are next. At least the US ones. Replacing whatsapp with signal also. I noticed a lot of my contacts are already in there, just not actively using it. It's a question of just starting communications and groups there. It's quite doable, but you have to really want to "vote with your wallet" so to speak. I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice. In fact, it rids you of psychological warfare, reduces anxiety, costs less money and gives you your time back. If you think about it that way, it's a no brainer.
  • ffsm8 2y ago
    Signal is us based too though?
• sudonanohome 2y ago
  Perspective from my side of small automation business ownership We started cleaning out company dependents dev stack from not necessary components starting mid last year. This activity just picked up full steam and we're planning block stuff like .microsoft.com and .GitHub.com in our main mikrotik router next month. My engineering team did amazing work divesting our development stack from windows. It is very hard to achieve in automation business. Most software development packaged for windows only. They did so much work replaced hardware vendors who did not work with Linux. Some work good with wine and we keeping them. We have internal company's gitea. We mirror EVERYTHING from GitHub we need internally. Even debian repositories! I expect that we can soon operate without internet connection for core business (install software on company PCs, develop automation code, etc), Company trucks all have 4TB hard drives with everything necessary for work outside the office. We have email and calendar on proton. Highly recommend amazing service and support. US companies cannot keep my company hostage anymore. It is hard to achieve this. But you can do it. Even we did in the field where windows OS is king.
• aluminussoma 2y ago
  I don’t think most Americans care about how Europe sees us. Instead, there is a thought that Europe uses America to protect its own interests instead of putting its own resources on the line. America itself has its own problems. America is spending too much money. America has an inflation problem that led to one of the most unpopular presidents ever getting elected again. Many Americans think it’s time to solve America’s problems instead of being feted in European capitals. If that means the rest of world won’t use Gmail, YouTube, or Facebook, so be it. Those companies can take care of themselves.
  • kristopolous 2y ago
    Economically that's really foolish. America is an increasingly unimportant market. Most countries have domestic versions of things (such as cars) and they are extremely lousy and noncompetitive. America is voluntarily stepping down from the international stage by imposing tariffs, ignoring treaties, demonizing foreigners, bowing out of powerful organizations and then saber rattling about the rise of China as the world looks elsewhere for leadership. It's clearly an intentional agitation and eventual war footing by naive self-destructive idiots. They end up achieving the opposite of their aims. They say they're going to lower egg prices, which is caused by the H5N1 bird flu epidemic, but instead they think it's from DEI hires and defund the USDA and organizations tasked with controlling the spread of bird flu and then egg prices go up. They then think "aughh! more wokeness! it's everywhere!" This is happening everywhere, with every bugaboo they care about. They blame it on nefarious acronyms and then dismantle the institutions trying to fix things. This is really the time to leave. Start packing the bags folks.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
• ineedasername 2y ago
  I think tech firms for the most part are just saying what they need to in order to not get too much scrutiny from US leadership. In their eyes, medium or even long term damage to foreign market interests is secondary to a more existential risk faced at home. As for the US dollar, floats against the euro and yen are still roughly in historic high territory, though not at peak, and recently edge up. If the US actually tries to default maybe there’d be significant flight to other currencies. Otherwise any large institution is probably going to wait out 4 years, possibly find the next bubble to pump up during likely deregulation of markets, and probably have it pop in time for the political right to blame it on progressives if/when the public pendulum swings the other way and they hold office again. The other way the dollar fails is if there is general wide spread world chaos in & out of financial markets, but in that case I’d expect little in the way of an alternative world reserve and more in the way of regional reserves, more insular and isolated.
• awaythrow999 2y ago
  This link is now on Google News lol.
• theLegionWithin 2y ago
  fyi EU, the world does not revolve around you. the rest of us don't care about you or your policies.
• Revanche1367 2y ago
  Majority of Americans do not care, unlike what always online political social media wants you to believe. It’s not really a big concern for us what is going on in Europe and frankly I prefer that the US does not meddle in foreign affairs, there’s been far too much of that in recent decades especially. So soft power can not exist for all many of us care. Also, look at social media like reddit even outside of politics, Europeans constantly laugh at Americans for bringing up European heritage but when Europe is in trouble, it’s all “think of Europe!!!” Why? America is in its own safe bubble, Russia is not really a threat to us and personally I’m not even of European heritage so telling me to care so much more about Europe unlike Asia or Africa just falls on deaf ears. I get along with Russians just as much as I get along with the English or French, and this is true for many of us, we’re a country of immigrants but much of that isn’t European in origin and even those of European origin aren’t necessarily thinking of Europe in any regard except as a potential vacation destination. The EU simply isn’t that important to many of us.
• Sammi 2y ago
  Dutch pension fund ABP sells all Alphabet and Meta shares, CEO tells newspaper FD https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/dutch-pension-fund-abp-sells-all-alphabet-meta-shares-ceo-tells-newspaper-fd-2025-02-17/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/dutch-pension-fund-ab...
• welzel 2y ago
  I am sorry, but this question shows how deep you are in the bubble. People don´t care, never did. Example: after Jamal Khashoggi was murdered, people still suck up to MbS. Money rules the world. After what we learned about Guantanamo Bay, nobody should be allowed to call the US a democratic country. But we all decided to ignore the facts, as watching Netflix is way to nice.
• LaserMoai 2y ago
  I bet the duopoly of Android and iOS is going to turn out to be a huge propaganda and security vector.
• voidr 2y ago
  European here: other than people obsessed with certain political events, nobody really cares, people aren't going to throw away their iPhones and switch away from Microsoft. I also find this very strange, that people did not talk about doing the mass exodus after we found out the US is conducting mass surveillance on us, but just because they don't like the politics of the current president, they start talking about how bad the US is. > The expectation is that especially US tech will be weaponized That should always have been the expectation, that's why the basic idea of GDPR was a good one, too bad they have botched it in the end. > I know people in the US are focused on DOGE, but over here in Europe, the impression is that the US completely destroyed its soft power this week. It's just some politicians who are unhappy because things didn't go their way, a lot of ordinary people are just happy to see hope that the economic suicide might be coming to an end, maybe next year my energy bills won't be 3x of what they used to be 3 years ago, one can dream. Keep in mind that most people don't even understand what current events are about, the vocal minority can be very vocal. > so people are switching search engines > Are people talking about this - do they take it seriously or believe there is no alternative to US tech? Switching search engines is easy, try switching your whole office from Windows to Linux. > What does it mean for US startups, California and global tech? It will mean nothing, if I need to build a product that requires US tech and there is no alternative, I'm going to use the US tech, end of story.