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> you think Google didn't already sign up to this? My understanding is that Android's Google Drive backup has had an E2E encryption option for many years (they

> you think Google didn't already sign up to this? My understanding is that Android's Google Drive backup has had an E2E encryption option for many years (they blogged about it at https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...), and that the key is only stored locally in the Titan Security Module. If they are complying with the IPA, wouldn't that mean that they must build a mechanism into Android to exfiltrate the key? And wouldn't this breach be discoverable by security research, which tends to be much simpler on Android than it is on iOS?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nomel 2y ago
My assumption is that Google has keys to everything in its kingdom [1]. [1] https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...
- tim333 2y ago
  I doubt it. Much to my annoyance they moved Google Maps Timeline from their database to an encrypted copy on my phone specifically so if law enforcement asks for the records of where you were at a given time and place they can say dunno, can't tell. If they had the keys it would wreck their legal strategy not to get hassled every time law enforcement are trying to track someone.
- marcprux 2y ago
  > My assumption is that Google has keys to everything in its kingdom If that were true, then their claims to support E2E encrypted backups are simply false, and they would have been subject to warrants to unlock backups, just like Apple had been until they implemented their "Advanced Data Protection" in 2022. Wouldn't there have been be some evidence of that in the past 7 years, either through security research, or through convictions that hinged on information that was gotten from a supposedly E2E-protected backup?
  - ajb 2y ago
    It's worth noting that what the security services don't have access to is as secret as what they do have access to. According to the late Ross Anderson, for many years the police were unable to trace calls (or was it internet access?) on one of the major UK mobile networks, because it had been designed without that and in such a way that it was hard to retrofit. This was considered highly confidential, lest all the drug dealers etc switch to that network.
  - dietr1ch 2y ago
    They are so used to bend reality that could easily call it e2e encryption even if the key was generated by Google or had a skew that made it vulnerable with some extra knowledge that they have or will have in the next sync.
  - scripturial 2y ago
    It is possible to set up end to end encryption where two different keys unlock your data. Your key, and a government key. I assume google does this. 1. encrypt data with special key 2. encrypt special key with users key, and 3. encrypt special key with government key Anyone with the special key can read the data.the user key or the government key can be used to get special key. This two step process can be done for good or bad purposes. A user can have their key on their device, and a second backup key could be in a usb stick locked in a safe, so if you loose your phone you can get your data back using the second key.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Would that still count as E2E-encrypted if another party has access? That would still count as lying to me.
      - lttlrck 2y ago
        That depends on the definition of "end".
        2y ago
- autoexec 2y ago
  My assumption is that the NSA does too.
- yellow_lead 2y ago
  This would mean no independent security researcher has ever taken a look at Google Drive's E2EE on Android. Or those that did missed the part where the key is uploaded. It's possible to decrypt this network traffic and see if the key is sent. It may be obfuscated though.
- foota 2y ago
  That's a bit silly seeing as e.g., https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/20/291959446/google-says-its-beefed-up-encryption-because-of-nsa-revelations https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/20/291959446...
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Google didn't announce that they could no longer process geofence warrants because they no longer stored a copy of user location data on their servers until last October. How much good does an encrypted device backup do when harvesting user data and storing it on your servers (to make ad sales more profitable) is your entire business model?
- skybrian 2y ago
  The linked article makes a lot of assumptions about the "Massive Digital Data Systems Program". It seems this program existed. For example, here is a 1996 paper [1] about research funded by the "Massive Digital Data Systems (MDDS) Program, through the Department of Defense." But it's not clear that funding for early research into data warehousing (back when a terabyte was a lot of data) has anything to do with whether or not Google uses end-to-end encryption? Lots of research got funded through the Department of Defense. Without having relevant evidence, this is just "let's assume X is true, therefore X is true." [1] https://papers.rgrossman.com/proc-047.htm https://papers.rgrossman.com/proc-047.htm
thelittleone 2y ago
Could that be true and at the same time a 'vulnerability' exists that megacorp is party to?
EduardoBautista 2y ago
Apple's ADP is not E2E for only its backups, it's E2E for _everything_ in iCloud Drive and a few other iCloud services.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nomel 2y ago

My assumption is that Google has keys to everything in its kingdom [1]. [1] https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...

tim333 2y ago
I doubt it. Much to my annoyance they moved Google Maps Timeline from their database to an encrypted copy on my phone specifically so if law enforcement asks for the records of where you were at a given time and place they can say dunno, can't tell. If they had the keys it would wreck their legal strategy not to get hassled every time law enforcement are trying to track someone.
marcprux 2y ago
> My assumption is that Google has keys to everything in its kingdom If that were true, then their claims to support E2E encrypted backups are simply false, and they would have been subject to warrants to unlock backups, just like Apple had been until they implemented their "Advanced Data Protection" in 2022. Wouldn't there have been be some evidence of that in the past 7 years, either through security research, or through convictions that hinged on information that was gotten from a supposedly E2E-protected backup?
- ajb 2y ago
  It's worth noting that what the security services don't have access to is as secret as what they do have access to. According to the late Ross Anderson, for many years the police were unable to trace calls (or was it internet access?) on one of the major UK mobile networks, because it had been designed without that and in such a way that it was hard to retrofit. This was considered highly confidential, lest all the drug dealers etc switch to that network.
- dietr1ch 2y ago
  They are so used to bend reality that could easily call it e2e encryption even if the key was generated by Google or had a skew that made it vulnerable with some extra knowledge that they have or will have in the next sync.
- scripturial 2y ago
  It is possible to set up end to end encryption where two different keys unlock your data. Your key, and a government key. I assume google does this. 1. encrypt data with special key 2. encrypt special key with users key, and 3. encrypt special key with government key Anyone with the special key can read the data.the user key or the government key can be used to get special key. This two step process can be done for good or bad purposes. A user can have their key on their device, and a second backup key could be in a usb stick locked in a safe, so if you loose your phone you can get your data back using the second key.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Would that still count as E2E-encrypted if another party has access? That would still count as lying to me.
    - lttlrck 2y ago
      That depends on the definition of "end".
      - 2y ago
autoexec 2y ago
My assumption is that the NSA does too.
yellow_lead 2y ago
This would mean no independent security researcher has ever taken a look at Google Drive's E2EE on Android. Or those that did missed the part where the key is uploaded. It's possible to decrypt this network traffic and see if the key is sent. It may be obfuscated though.
foota 2y ago
That's a bit silly seeing as e.g., https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/20/291959446/google-says-its-beefed-up-encryption-because-of-nsa-revelations https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/20/291959446...
GeekyBear 2y ago
Google didn't announce that they could no longer process geofence warrants because they no longer stored a copy of user location data on their servers until last October. How much good does an encrypted device backup do when harvesting user data and storing it on your servers (to make ad sales more profitable) is your entire business model?
skybrian 2y ago
The linked article makes a lot of assumptions about the "Massive Digital Data Systems Program". It seems this program existed. For example, here is a 1996 paper [1] about research funded by the "Massive Digital Data Systems (MDDS) Program, through the Department of Defense." But it's not clear that funding for early research into data warehousing (back when a terabyte was a lot of data) has anything to do with whether or not Google uses end-to-end encryption? Lots of research got funded through the Department of Defense. Without having relevant evidence, this is just "let's assume X is true, therefore X is true." [1] https://papers.rgrossman.com/proc-047.htm https://papers.rgrossman.com/proc-047.htm

thelittleone 2y ago

Could that be true and at the same time a 'vulnerability' exists that megacorp is party to?

EduardoBautista 2y ago

Apple's ADP is not E2E for only its backups, it's E2E for _everything_ in iCloud Drive and a few other iCloud services.