8 ms·
Linus response here seems relevant to this context: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/ h
by lazypenguin 2y ago
Linus response here seems relevant to this context: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4d...
- yolovoe 2y agoHuh, thanks. Really good to know where Linus stands here. Seems to me like Linus is completely okay with introduction of Rust to the kernel and will not allow maintainers blocking its adoption. Really good sign. Makes me hopeful about the future of this increasingly large kernel
- thesuperbigfrog 2y agoLinus's reply is perfect in tone and hopefully will settle this issue. He is forceful in making his points, but respectful in the way he addressed Christoph's concerns. This gives me great hope that the Linux maintainer community and contributers using Rust will be able to continue working together, find more common ground, and have more success.
- nxobject 2y agoLinus is one of the few people who can forcefully argue the case for moderation, and I've recognized some of the lines I've used to shift really contentious meetings back into place. There's the "shot-and-chaser" technique (a) this is what needs to happen now for the conversation... "I respect you technically, and I like working with you[...] there needs to be people who just stand up to me and tell me I'm full of shit[...] But now I'm calling you out on YOURS." ...and (b) this is me recognizing that me taking charge of a conversation is a different thing than me taking control of your decisions: "And no, I don't actually think it needs to be all that black-and-white." (Of course Linus has changed over time for the better, he's recognized that, and I've learned a lot with him and have made amends with old colleagues.)
- kelnos 2y agoI really liked this reply from Torvalds. I've seen a lot of his older rants, and while I respect his technical achievements, it really turned me off on the guy himself. I was skeptical of his come-to-jesus moment back in 2018 (or whenever it was), but these days it's great to read his measured responses when there's controversy. It's really cool to see someone temper their language and tone, but still keep their tell-it-like-it-is attitude. I probably wouldn't feel good if I were Christoph Hellwig reading that reply, but I also wouldn't feel like someone had personally attacked me and screamed at me far out of proportion to what I'd done.
- j16sdiz 2y agoThe response addressed Christoph's concerns _in word_. According to the policy, rust folks should fix the rust binding when C changes breaks the binding. The C maintainer don't need to care rust, at all. In practice, though, I would expect this needs lots of coordination. A PR with C only changes that breaks the whole building (because rust binding is broken) is unlikely to be merged to mainline. Linus can reiterate his policy, but the issue can't be resolved without some rust developers keep on their persistent work and builds up their reputation.
- sanxiyn 2y agoWhy wouldn't it be merged? No Rust code is built unless CONFIG_RUST is on, and it is off by default. It won't be on by default for a long time.
- _blk 2y agoHow many kb ram is enough for everyone?
- robinei 2y agoThat's the theory. However, isn't likely that as things like the new Nova Nvidia driver is written in Rust, the things that depend on Rust are suddenly so important, that shipping with it disabled is unrealistic, even without a policy change. (I don't think this is bad)
- cyanydeez 2y agoWhen rust is important, the problem bootstraps itswlf.
- microtonal 2y agoRust for Linux is currently experiment. If a larger number of widely-used drivers get written in Rust and developers prefer writing them in Rust over C, then I guess it's time to declare the experiment a success and flip the switch?
- 2y ago
- chris_wot 2y agoThank god for common sense.
- ksec 2y agoI have always thought Linus may not like Rust or at least not Pro-Rust, and the only reason Rust is marching inside the Kernel is most of his close lieutenant are extremely pro rust. So there is this Rust experiment. But looking at all the recent responses it seems Rusted Linux is inevitable. He is Pro Rust.
- the_duke 2y agoI'm pretty sure there is significant pressure from corporate sponsors in the Linux foundation to make Rust happen. That includes Google, Microsoft, AWS, ...
- snailmailstare 2y agoI think the pressures are from everywhere all the time. There's always a risk that something picks up enough steam to replace an OS even if it is a derivative or fork of the same OS. For C++ adoption, Linus gauged correctly that it's steam is limited and even directly taunting its supporters had low risk in a project that could challenge Linux because its set of choices over time has had many foot guns, where many developers would intentionally use what any user would consider a foot gun. As long as Linus didn't step in to define strong rules for how C++ would be used there was no likely challenger over any reasonable amount of time (for Linux/C). This is not true for rust.
- the_duke 2y agoThe difference is that at least Google is actively deploying Rust-based Linux code in Android already. And the big Linux foundation members have more influence than is publically known.
- snailmailstare 2y agoLinus was pretty clear about his views on working with vendors, etc, in his Autobiography so I'm not sure if/why there would be surprise. Solaris, Java and C/C++ conpilers were all owned by Sun. I feel that is a situation without anyone even trying to maintain whatever separation some might expect from Linus.
- SeanAnderson 2y agoThe whole "I respect you technically, and I like working with you." in the middle of being firm and typing in caps is such a vibe shift from the Linus of a decade ago. We love to see it!
- atq2119 2y agoMy impression is that this has always been part of the core of his character, but he had to learn to put it into writing. Contrast this to people who are good at producing the appearance of an upstanding character when it suits them, but being quite vindictive and poisonous behind closed doors when it doesn't.
- Ballas 2y agoYeah, from my limited view point it really looks like Linus is a genuine person. He says what he thinks and there are no hidden agendas. That is very refreshing in current times.
- account42 2y ago[flagged]
- dxdm 2y agoIn my eyes, this sentence by Linus is as straightforward as it gets. But if you think it's corporate lie-speak, I wonder which words you'd interpret as genuine - because there has to be a way to get something like that across if you really mean it, or we're all doomed. :)
- kennysoona 2y agoHonestly I was waiting for a reply from Linux like this to put Hellwig in his place. > The fact is, the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL. > It was literally just another user of it, in a completely separate subdirectory, that didn't change the code you maintain in _any_ way, shape, or form. > I find it distressing that you are complaining about new users of your code, and then you keep bringing up these kinds of complete garbage arguments. Finally. If he had been sooner maybe we wouldn't have lost talented contributors to the kernel.
- kombine 2y ago> Finally. If he had been sooner maybe we wouldn't have lost talented contributors to the kernel. I feel that departure of the lead R4L developer was a compromise deliberately made to not make Hellwig feel like a complete loser. This sounds bad of course.
- kragen 2y agoThis is indeed an excellent response and will hopefully settle the issues. Aside from the ones already settled by Linus's previous email, such as whether social media brigading campaigns are a valid part of the kernel development process.
- foota 2y agoI don't know why he didn't write this email 3 weeks ago.
- KingMob 2y agoHe wrote that he was hoping the email thread would improve the situation without his involvement, but that turned out not to be the case.
- rcxdude 2y agoIt didn't seem super likely that this would be the case, because a lot of the contention was around what Linus specifically thought about it.
- darthrupert 2y agoIsn't it obvious? He thought about it.
- mschuster91 2y agoFinally, took him long enough.
- AdmiralAsshat 2y agoBoy that response would've been helpful like a week ago, before several key Rust maintainers resigned in protest due to Linus's radio silence on the matter.
- geodel 2y agoOh several resigned. I thought all of them.