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I have had only bad experience with its federation and chat clients over many years, I don't think it can improve, if it could, they probably would have fixed i

by Jnr 2y ago

I have had only bad experience with its federation and chat clients over many years, I don't think it can improve, if it could, they probably would have fixed it a long time ago. Maybe not a popular opinion, but they should let the Matrix die altogether so something better can replace it.

MortyWaves 2y ago
Matrix feels like it’s in a strange place. I briefly tried it only to find vast quantities of porn and spam. Even the “programming” channel. I mentioned this in a thread on HN and got blasted by some Matrix maintainer, as if it was preposterous that I found this to not be a good thing. Apparently they are unable or unwilling to moderate and prevent spam, even on arguably probably the first channel a large part of their potential users would join first. That evaporated any remaining interest I had in it.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  It’s probably worth reading https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/ for more context on that. (PS sorry for blasting you, if it was me :)
vr46 2y ago
I agree, I've tried every possible setup I could to get things running reliably for a client and ultimately just held up my hands and went, "exactly why are you not using a combination of Signal/Keybase/GPG" for your use case? Even PGP was easier to adopt en-masse than this.
Arathorn 2y ago
The irony is that I suspect we have fixed it - eg Element X and Matrix 2.0 is a massive step change forwards; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyHO3xPfQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyHO3xPfQU etc. But I can see why bad experiences in the past would stick.
- pzmarzly 2y ago
  Only for mobile, no? Element X for desktop is still in development, last time I checked, and the old client is as bad as ever. Element is the only piece of software where logging in and out (I don't want to be permanently logged in) proved to be too much of a challenge - I was regularly losing encryption keys on different devices.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    yup, only on mobile. Element on Desktop is yet to be revamped, but hopefully we’ll do so this year.
  - cvwright 2y ago
    Don’t log out! If you are ever at a point where you have no active sessions (aka “devices”) then other clients will not be able to send you the keys to decrypt their messages. This is one of the many ways to get “unable to decrypt” errors in Matrix.
- zenexer 2y ago
  I disagree--it doesn't feel resolved. I've been trying to use Matrix for so long now, and just recently gave another shot at helping my partner get up and running with Element X on her M4 iPad. It's still so clunky and so difficult to get off the ground. To start, E2E key verification just wouldn't work on Element X; she had to install Element, verify my key there, and go back to Element X. That would be easy to overlook if the UI felt responsive and snappy, but it doesn't. It feels far from native. I don't know if it's Electron under the hood--I haven't checked--but it sure feels like it. It feels unresponsive in the same way as a stereotypical bank app, like walking through Jello. Maybe it's a protocol issue; I'm not sure. I've got a nice, powerful homeserver running, waiting for love, but it will continue waiting until such time as there's a responsive client. Every month or two, I upgrade it and give it another shot, but I always end up back on a mix of Telegram, WhatsApp, Slack, and Discord. None of my work or social circles are willing to make the switch when it feels so slow.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
edhelas 2y ago
Like... XMPP ? IETF standard, massivelly used (video-games https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/, IM https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/, social...), modern features, managed by a fundation with a good ecosystem and plenty of alive projects: https://xmpp.org/software/ https://xmpp.org/software/ . Yes its not perfect, yes there's still things to improve, but the clients are there, working, on many platforms. The server-S (yes several of them!) as well, they can scale, they can adapt to many use cases. Matrix did a few things better than XMPP (the Spaces/Servers things, that XMPP is still figuring out), but for most of the rest... well. Oh and there's also many bridges on XMPP, maintained by different projects, and they don't need 100K$ to stay alive :)
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  XMPP had its run and is dead, replaced by Matrix. Every single contact I've had on XMPP has migrated away from it. Anyone telling me "actually nvm, I'm switching from Matrix to XMPP again" won't get me to replace the chat app that I keep just for this one person plus 2-3 others with another experimental, broken, soon to be replaced chat app, they'll get a link to Signal and an invite to send me a letter if they don't want to use that. Matrix seems reasonably usable for 1:1 channels at least, and I've also successfully used it for groups, including ones bridged to discord and IRC.
  - amatecha 2y ago
    XMPP isn't dead, but think what you like. More and more people have been adopting it. "experimental, broken", that's not really how I describe software that's been in use since 2004 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajim / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_(software) ), 2014 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_(software) ) etc. If you want to describe something as experimental or broken just take a look at Element, which has never once been what I would describe as "polished".
    - 2y ago
the__alchemist 2y ago
Concur. Element is embarrassingly buggy.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  the old Element apps were; have you tried Element X?
  - the__alchemist 2y ago
    No; will give it a shot; ty!
  - bronson 2y ago
    Yes ... my matrix.org account is still many times slower than my other chat apps and there's spam everywhere. It's not a great experience. I'm really hoping to see Matrix go big but it feels like there's still a long way to go. That said, ElementX's video and audio calls work really well. If you added the ability to ring people's phones, so I don't have to first negotiate people into the chat using text messages or a phone call, I could see using it instead of FaceTime.
    - Arathorn 2y ago
      hm, Element X should outperform other chat apps; mine does and I’m in 5000 odd rooms. What platform and hardware are you on?
      - bronson 2y ago
        Pixel 9. Here's an example: GrapheneOS General is mirrored to Discord. Open both and start scrolling up. ElementX shows the spinner for 3 seconds at a time, Discord spins for 1/2 second or so. Go ahead and race them, it's not even close. Another example: Matrix HQ is always notoriously slow. Just now I opened it and there are no messages ... none. No spinner. Just a note at the bottom saying "27 room changes." I waited for at least 10 seconds. Force quit the app, reload, and the messages are there. What platform are you using that performs so much better than mine?
kalaksi 2y ago
Matrix works fine for many people. If there's something similar but better, it's free to compete.

by Jnr 2y ago

MortyWaves 2y ago

Matrix feels like it’s in a strange place. I briefly tried it only to find vast quantities of porn and spam. Even the “programming” channel. I mentioned this in a thread on HN and got blasted by some Matrix maintainer, as if it was preposterous that I found this to not be a good thing. Apparently they are unable or unwilling to moderate and prevent spam, even on arguably probably the first channel a large part of their potential users would join first. That evaporated any remaining interest I had in it.

Arathorn 2y ago
It’s probably worth reading https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/ for more context on that. (PS sorry for blasting you, if it was me :)

vr46 2y ago

I agree, I've tried every possible setup I could to get things running reliably for a client and ultimately just held up my hands and went, "exactly why are you not using a combination of Signal/Keybase/GPG" for your use case? Even PGP was easier to adopt en-masse than this.

Arathorn 2y ago

The irony is that I suspect we have fixed it - eg Element X and Matrix 2.0 is a massive step change forwards; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyHO3xPfQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyHO3xPfQU etc. But I can see why bad experiences in the past would stick.

pzmarzly 2y ago
Only for mobile, no? Element X for desktop is still in development, last time I checked, and the old client is as bad as ever. Element is the only piece of software where logging in and out (I don't want to be permanently logged in) proved to be too much of a challenge - I was regularly losing encryption keys on different devices.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  yup, only on mobile. Element on Desktop is yet to be revamped, but hopefully we’ll do so this year.
- cvwright 2y ago
  Don’t log out! If you are ever at a point where you have no active sessions (aka “devices”) then other clients will not be able to send you the keys to decrypt their messages. This is one of the many ways to get “unable to decrypt” errors in Matrix.
zenexer 2y ago
I disagree--it doesn't feel resolved. I've been trying to use Matrix for so long now, and just recently gave another shot at helping my partner get up and running with Element X on her M4 iPad. It's still so clunky and so difficult to get off the ground. To start, E2E key verification just wouldn't work on Element X; she had to install Element, verify my key there, and go back to Element X. That would be easy to overlook if the UI felt responsive and snappy, but it doesn't. It feels far from native. I don't know if it's Electron under the hood--I haven't checked--but it sure feels like it. It feels unresponsive in the same way as a stereotypical bank app, like walking through Jello. Maybe it's a protocol issue; I'm not sure. I've got a nice, powerful homeserver running, waiting for love, but it will continue waiting until such time as there's a responsive client. Every month or two, I upgrade it and give it another shot, but I always end up back on a mix of Telegram, WhatsApp, Slack, and Discord. None of my work or social circles are willing to make the switch when it feels so slow.
- Arathorn 2y ago

edhelas 2y ago

Like... XMPP ? IETF standard, massivelly used (video-games https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/ https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/, IM https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/ https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/, social...), modern features, managed by a fundation with a good ecosystem and plenty of alive projects: https://xmpp.org/software/ https://xmpp.org/software/ . Yes its not perfect, yes there's still things to improve, but the clients are there, working, on many platforms. The server-S (yes several of them!) as well, they can scale, they can adapt to many use cases. Matrix did a few things better than XMPP (the Spaces/Servers things, that XMPP is still figuring out), but for most of the rest... well. Oh and there's also many bridges on XMPP, maintained by different projects, and they don't need 100K$ to stay alive :)

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
XMPP had its run and is dead, replaced by Matrix. Every single contact I've had on XMPP has migrated away from it. Anyone telling me "actually nvm, I'm switching from Matrix to XMPP again" won't get me to replace the chat app that I keep just for this one person plus 2-3 others with another experimental, broken, soon to be replaced chat app, they'll get a link to Signal and an invite to send me a letter if they don't want to use that. Matrix seems reasonably usable for 1:1 channels at least, and I've also successfully used it for groups, including ones bridged to discord and IRC.
- amatecha 2y ago
  XMPP isn't dead, but think what you like. More and more people have been adopting it. "experimental, broken", that's not really how I describe software that's been in use since 2004 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajim / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin_(software) ), 2014 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_(software) ) etc. If you want to describe something as experimental or broken just take a look at Element, which has never once been what I would describe as "polished".
  - 2y ago

the__alchemist 2y ago

Concur. Element is embarrassingly buggy.

Arathorn 2y ago
the old Element apps were; have you tried Element X?
- the__alchemist 2y ago
  No; will give it a shot; ty!
- bronson 2y ago
  Yes ... my matrix.org account is still many times slower than my other chat apps and there's spam everywhere. It's not a great experience. I'm really hoping to see Matrix go big but it feels like there's still a long way to go. That said, ElementX's video and audio calls work really well. If you added the ability to ring people's phones, so I don't have to first negotiate people into the chat using text messages or a phone call, I could see using it instead of FaceTime.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    hm, Element X should outperform other chat apps; mine does and I’m in 5000 odd rooms. What platform and hardware are you on?
    - bronson 2y ago
      Pixel 9. Here's an example: GrapheneOS General is mirrored to Discord. Open both and start scrolling up. ElementX shows the spinner for 3 seconds at a time, Discord spins for 1/2 second or so. Go ahead and race them, it's not even close. Another example: Matrix HQ is always notoriously slow. Just now I opened it and there are no messages ... none. No spinner. Just a note at the bottom saying "27 room changes." I waited for at least 10 seconds. Force quit the app, reload, and the messages are there. What platform are you using that performs so much better than mine?

kalaksi 2y ago

Matrix works fine for many people. If there's something similar but better, it's free to compete.