5 ms·

You personally are cool with me personally knowing your salary and where you live? Please just post that here right now.

Etheryte 2y ago
That might sound incredibly foreign to you, but this is the norm in many Nordic countries, see Norway, Sweden and Finland, for a start. Tax returns for everyone are public, and so are addresses through a national registry.
- stackedinserter 2y ago
  Why do they need it? Besides dumb envy, why would I need someone's tax return? What's in it for me?
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    Salary negotiations are a very simple example, you can easily compare your salary to that of your peers and to similar positions in other companies. If your boss tells you they pay you the industry average or company average or whatnot, you wouldn't be able to check whether that's actually true otherwise. You can also have a rough ballpark of what a company pays before you apply for a job there. In general, information like this being public empowers people, whereas in most countries companies hold all the cards and use this information asymmetry to their advantage.
    - stackedinserter 2y ago
      OK, you see that your peer earns 2x more than you, then what? You automatically assume that you need to be paid the same?
      - TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
        it's another data point in a negotiation.
        stackedinserter 2y ago
        Why can't you just ask your peer? "Hey peer, what is your salary?"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - pembrook 2y ago
    Fairness and efficiency. If someone is making significantly more money than you, they are either: a) creating more productive value than you or doing something more in demand by society [strong signal you should join them!] or b) manipulating their situation for better outcomes unfairly or fraudulently In both cases it's in the interest of the greater good to have these things out in the open.
    - stackedinserter 2y ago
      c) just better than you at what you're both doing.
- trash_cat 2y ago
  While true, this is currently being debated if the access of public data should be reduced [0]. [0] https://lexing.network/swedens-latest-inquiry-into-protecting-individual-privacy-vs-safeguarding-freedom-of-expression/ https://lexing.network/swedens-latest-inquiry-into-protectin...
- rdm_blackhole 2y ago
  Agreed. As a foreigner who moved to Sweden, it was quite shocking first to see all this info displayed online for everyone to see but there are definitely some good sides and bad sides to it. One of the good side is that, you can look at the people living in a given area and decided if this is the kind of neighborhood where you want to live. Lower (declared income) can have a correlation with crime so if you just want to have a quite life, you may want to select an era that has loads of working people with a higher than average income. One bad side, some people have used it in the past to harass people, think ex-lovers and so on. There is a procedure in place where if you are afraid of being stalked you can ask for your information to be removed from these registries or at least be hidden from public view.
- staticelf 2y ago
  Which works, until you have mass immigration from MENA-countries that results in a huge rise in criminality which makes everyone afraid because any criminal can look you up from the license plate or simply by searching for your name and instantly know where you are. I hate this system. It used to be a good system when most people was law abiding and there was no gang criminals. But today? Jeez, you are like a fish just hoping not to get struck by the sharks and there is no protection available due to the failing state.
- patapong 2y ago
  Yep! In Sweden, this is part of the constitution. I think it beautifully demonstrates that the state works for the public, and that all information held by the state should by default also be accessible to members of the public, unless there is an important exception, such as personal medical privacy or national security. It acts as a great tool for journalists, who are able to obtain meaningful insight into the actions of the state at all levels. While of course there are downsides, I think this is a very important principle.
  - ncr100 2y ago
    Here you get SWATted for "fun" by kids, and targeted by Right-Wing extremists with death-threats for "political speech", and targeted by criminals based upon your vulnerability. USA is sooooo not Sweden.
    - muddi900 2y ago
      The wonderful thing about SWATing is the sinister nature if it. It is a euphemism, for the fact that the US is a police state. So much so that private citizens can manipulate it as a weapon. There is no consequence, or even drastic change in policy, for the police in the face if this phenomenon. But if the same private citizen were to hire or manipulate a gang to carry out such an attack, everyone would be in prison for life.
      - ncr100 2y ago
        > It is a euphemism, for the fact that the US is a police state Fantastic point, agreed. My 1980s anger at the authoritarian misuse of "freedom" by Regan-nauts all wearing the same their greased helmet hair is affirmed moreso these days
- pembrook 2y ago
  Not just that, so are the tax returns of private businesses. You can look up any company and see exactly how it's doing. In Finland they publish everyones salaries over a certain threshold in the newspaper every year.
- mr_toad 2y ago
  In New Zealand public servants salaries were published in the “Public Service List” from 1866 through to 1988. https://teara.govt.nz/en/zoomify/33070/page-from-the-public-service-list-1948-49 https://teara.govt.nz/en/zoomify/33070/page-from-the-public-... Anecdotally they were mainly used to evaluate potential dates.
- exDM69 2y ago
  Neither is really true at least for Finland. Addresses are not public information, you can opt out from having your info public. They are not even a national registry (one exists, not public) but your telco will put you in "the phone book" if you don't opt out. Taxes are public information but only to a degree. You can opt out from having them shared en masse (primarily to the media) but you can still inquire someone else's paid taxes from the tax office but it requires you to know their full given name, year of birth and home town. Salary is not public information, only the total amount of paid income taxes. You can correlate them to some degree but you won't be able to know how many jobs a person has or where their capital gains are from. Access to this information can also be limited in exceptional cases (politicians, harassment victims, identity theft etc).
- Philpax 2y ago
  Tom Scott video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
What is it called when people cry free speech, democracy, and transparency while actively assaulting these ideals?
- morkalork 2y ago
  Acting in bad faith, exploiting flaws and asymmetries in a system?
calebm 2y ago
Employers almost always know the salary and location of their employees. Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Employers almost always know the salary and location of their employees. Employers do, individual stockholders of the employing firm do not, generally. > Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens. No, they are in theory employees of the government, in which the citizenry are stakeholders. They are not, even in theory, direct employees of the citizens. A US Attorney is not, in theory, your attorney just because you are a US citizen.
- maronato 2y ago
  > Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens. Not in theory nor in practice, for the same reason a teacher isn’t the employee of a student’s parents.

Etheryte 2y ago

That might sound incredibly foreign to you, but this is the norm in many Nordic countries, see Norway, Sweden and Finland, for a start. Tax returns for everyone are public, and so are addresses through a national registry.

stackedinserter 2y ago
Why do they need it? Besides dumb envy, why would I need someone's tax return? What's in it for me?
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Salary negotiations are a very simple example, you can easily compare your salary to that of your peers and to similar positions in other companies. If your boss tells you they pay you the industry average or company average or whatnot, you wouldn't be able to check whether that's actually true otherwise. You can also have a rough ballpark of what a company pays before you apply for a job there. In general, information like this being public empowers people, whereas in most countries companies hold all the cards and use this information asymmetry to their advantage.
  - stackedinserter 2y ago
    OK, you see that your peer earns 2x more than you, then what? You automatically assume that you need to be paid the same?
    - TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
      it's another data point in a negotiation.
      - stackedinserter 2y ago
        Why can't you just ask your peer? "Hey peer, what is your salary?"
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pembrook 2y ago
  Fairness and efficiency. If someone is making significantly more money than you, they are either: a) creating more productive value than you or doing something more in demand by society [strong signal you should join them!] or b) manipulating their situation for better outcomes unfairly or fraudulently In both cases it's in the interest of the greater good to have these things out in the open.
  - stackedinserter 2y ago
    c) just better than you at what you're both doing.
trash_cat 2y ago
While true, this is currently being debated if the access of public data should be reduced [0]. [0] https://lexing.network/swedens-latest-inquiry-into-protecting-individual-privacy-vs-safeguarding-freedom-of-expression/ https://lexing.network/swedens-latest-inquiry-into-protectin...
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
Agreed. As a foreigner who moved to Sweden, it was quite shocking first to see all this info displayed online for everyone to see but there are definitely some good sides and bad sides to it. One of the good side is that, you can look at the people living in a given area and decided if this is the kind of neighborhood where you want to live. Lower (declared income) can have a correlation with crime so if you just want to have a quite life, you may want to select an era that has loads of working people with a higher than average income. One bad side, some people have used it in the past to harass people, think ex-lovers and so on. There is a procedure in place where if you are afraid of being stalked you can ask for your information to be removed from these registries or at least be hidden from public view.
staticelf 2y ago
Which works, until you have mass immigration from MENA-countries that results in a huge rise in criminality which makes everyone afraid because any criminal can look you up from the license plate or simply by searching for your name and instantly know where you are. I hate this system. It used to be a good system when most people was law abiding and there was no gang criminals. But today? Jeez, you are like a fish just hoping not to get struck by the sharks and there is no protection available due to the failing state.
patapong 2y ago
Yep! In Sweden, this is part of the constitution. I think it beautifully demonstrates that the state works for the public, and that all information held by the state should by default also be accessible to members of the public, unless there is an important exception, such as personal medical privacy or national security. It acts as a great tool for journalists, who are able to obtain meaningful insight into the actions of the state at all levels. While of course there are downsides, I think this is a very important principle.
- ncr100 2y ago
  Here you get SWATted for "fun" by kids, and targeted by Right-Wing extremists with death-threats for "political speech", and targeted by criminals based upon your vulnerability. USA is sooooo not Sweden.
  - muddi900 2y ago
    The wonderful thing about SWATing is the sinister nature if it. It is a euphemism, for the fact that the US is a police state. So much so that private citizens can manipulate it as a weapon. There is no consequence, or even drastic change in policy, for the police in the face if this phenomenon. But if the same private citizen were to hire or manipulate a gang to carry out such an attack, everyone would be in prison for life.
    - ncr100 2y ago
      > It is a euphemism, for the fact that the US is a police state Fantastic point, agreed. My 1980s anger at the authoritarian misuse of "freedom" by Regan-nauts all wearing the same their greased helmet hair is affirmed moreso these days
pembrook 2y ago
Not just that, so are the tax returns of private businesses. You can look up any company and see exactly how it's doing. In Finland they publish everyones salaries over a certain threshold in the newspaper every year.
mr_toad 2y ago
In New Zealand public servants salaries were published in the “Public Service List” from 1866 through to 1988. https://teara.govt.nz/en/zoomify/33070/page-from-the-public-service-list-1948-49 https://teara.govt.nz/en/zoomify/33070/page-from-the-public-... Anecdotally they were mainly used to evaluate potential dates.
exDM69 2y ago
Neither is really true at least for Finland. Addresses are not public information, you can opt out from having your info public. They are not even a national registry (one exists, not public) but your telco will put you in "the phone book" if you don't opt out. Taxes are public information but only to a degree. You can opt out from having them shared en masse (primarily to the media) but you can still inquire someone else's paid taxes from the tax office but it requires you to know their full given name, year of birth and home town. Salary is not public information, only the total amount of paid income taxes. You can correlate them to some degree but you won't be able to know how many jobs a person has or where their capital gains are from. Access to this information can also be limited in exceptional cases (politicians, harassment victims, identity theft etc).
Philpax 2y ago
Tom Scott video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8zEaSuWg

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

What is it called when people cry free speech, democracy, and transparency while actively assaulting these ideals?

morkalork 2y ago
Acting in bad faith, exploiting flaws and asymmetries in a system?

calebm 2y ago

Employers almost always know the salary and location of their employees. Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens.

dragonwriter 2y ago
> Employers almost always know the salary and location of their employees. Employers do, individual stockholders of the employing firm do not, generally. > Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens. No, they are in theory employees of the government, in which the citizenry are stakeholders. They are not, even in theory, direct employees of the citizens. A US Attorney is not, in theory, your attorney just because you are a US citizen.
maronato 2y ago
> Government workers are (in theory) employees of the citizens. Not in theory nor in practice, for the same reason a teacher isn’t the employee of a student’s parents.