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A SpaceX team is being brought in to overhaul FAA's air traffic control system
- comrade1234 2y agoI have to be in the USA in May. I think I can get all the way to Michigan by boat.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y agoWhat specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm? What was the bidding process like? Do other regions / nations have more advanced ATC than we do, and what can we learn from them? Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals? Just feels like corruption, tbh.
- r0ckarong 2y agoBidding process? Learn from other nations? Problem statement? Goals? The problem statement is: I don't own this yet. And the goal is: I run everything now. It IS blatant corruption. A foreign national is using his private enterprises to take over government agencies and is backed by a traitor who only cares about his own money and power. If there ever was a more blatant episode of corruption it's what's going on in the US right now.
- StackRanker3000 2y agoI agree with everything else you’ve written, but Musk is an American citizen, since a couple of decades.
- Gys 2y agoHe is also has a special Chinese status and large interests there. See for example https://newrepublic.com/article/191265/elon-musk-us-china-usaid-tesla https://newrepublic.com/article/191265/elon-musk-us-china-us...
- amazingamazing 2y agoHow can anyone take this post seriously when it gets basic facts wrong.
- sumeno 2y agoPeople take Musk seriously and he gets basic facts wrong constantly
- amazingamazing 2y agoI wasn't talking about the poster, I was talking about the post. If Musk is writing things that gets basic stuff wrong, then that shouldn't be taken seriously, either.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago"It’s only really like the tenth percentile of the adult population who’d be gullible enough to fall for this," the data scientist told Musk during a face-to-face meeting. "Fuck you!" Musk shouted back. https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-scientist-resigned-twitter-blasted-181505572.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-scientist-resigned-twitter-b... Musk is not a terribly bright individual. He gets a lot of things wrong, and he does not care to be told he is wrong.
- raverbashing 2y ago> What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm? None? > What was the bidding process like? What bidding process? Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy > Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals? Every system can be improved, but I think the current issues with ATC in the US are not of a technical nature per se ATC is much more than controllers watching planes on radar screens Also remember this is a system that has been continuously evolving since WWII pretty much (and possibly before) and that one of the recent "breaking backwards compatibility" was NDBs being decommissioned in the US (bit by bit)
- ivewonyoung 2y ago> Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy Source that SpaceX was hired for this? The article makes no such claims and has no sources saying that.
- PaywallBuster 2y agoarticle didn't they they got the project and any project would take months/years even with the best and brightest on the project > get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system based on this they can come in to scope out a project and send it out for bidding
- text0404 2y agowhere have they indicated that they will open this up for bidding?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y agoAn article 3 months from now... "According to Musk, the efficiencies gained by leveraging the exposure of the assessment team make SpaceX the only viable vendor. 'A bidding process to select the only possible applicant would be silly.'"
- i80and 2y ago> Just feels like corruption, tbh. If a democrat did this, it would (rightly!) be seen as a front-page scandal on the scale of Teapot Dome if not worse.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago...it's literally seen as a front-page scandal on HN and the linked source though.
- intended 2y agoOn page 3 now.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y agoWhere is the outrage from the one group that can actually do anything about this: Republican members of congress and Republican senators? There's already been a handful of impeachment-level events, such as the blatant quid pro quo of the Adams corruption charges dismissal which resulted in a series of DoJ resignations reminiscent of the Saturday Night Massacre. You know, a critical event that shifted public and Republican opinion of Nixon, leading to his resignation under the threat of impeachment. Democratic congresspeople and senators can't do much without at least some of their Republican colleagues standing up to the bullies currently running the party. And no, Susan Collins' inevitable but ineffectual "concerns" isn't the kind of outrage I mean.
- therealpygon 2y agoThe answer seems pretty simple. They are all spineless loyalists or want to preserve their power these days. Shameful.
- cmurf 2y agoWhy would they be outraged? They're doing the job they were hired to do. This is what their constituency has wanted for many years and demanded: pure unadulterated unwavering unquestioned support for their emperor, and he is Trump. They want a mean daddy. They finally found him. All of the people with balls have been fired or quit. North Carolina senator Thom Tillis told people that the FBI warned him about “credible death threats” when he was considering voting against Pete Hegseth’s nomination. - Vanity Fair, “They’re Scared Shitless” To whatever degree they are really scared (Liz Cheney is far braver than these MAGA elected kooks, scared of their own shadows), let's accept the premise for the sake of the argument. They will permit an incendiary fire of epic proportion well beyond what we've seen so far before they do anything. They may in fact not be capable of it under any circumstances. And if that is the case, is there even a functioning Senate right now? In terms of 5 USC 3331? I think not. And that means the republic is in abeyance. It's a principate now. For however long, really depends on the American public - not any elected officials.
- gitfan86 2y ago[flagged]
- MourYother 2y agohttps://imgur.com/gallery/doge-math-wow-very-bad-much-corrupt-atRMd77 https://imgur.com/gallery/doge-math-wow-very-bad-much-corrup...
- XzAeRosho 2y agoIf things felt corrupt before, why not improve the processes? Why keep doing the same but with the companies the administration in turn likes the best?
- gitfan86 2y agoRemoving the process is the improvement. This is what we voted for. Less processes not more and actual results. Ask ChatGPT to compare and contrast Kamala Harris's effectiveness as "broadband Tzar" as compared to SpaceX Starlink.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y agoLess process creates transparency gaps which become opportunities for more corruption.
- gitfan86 2y agoThere is a balance in process vs. efficiency. The idea that anyone removing any processes is only doing it to insert corruption isn't a valid argument against efficiency
- longtimelistnr 2y agoGot it, so frame the question using language hinting i'm looking for an anti Harris response.
- 2y ago
- jillyboel 2y ago> Do other regions / nations have more advanced ATC According to Trump, yes. This is what he said: > When I land in my plane, privately, I use a system from another country because...I won't tell you what country... because the captain says this system is so bad, it's so obsolete, that we can't have that. - https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/02/06/trump-conflate-air-traffic-control-private-jet-navigation-system/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/02/06...
- flakeoil 2y agoThat article says Trump is confused. > Trump ... seemed to mix up a plane’s onboard electronics system with the federal air traffic control system.
- notahacker 2y agoI think the intro explaining that this is not true and Trump was most likely misunderstanding his pilot's comments about onboard electronics is the key bit of that article... Fits in with the first term in which Trump baffled airline executives by assuring them that he'd help solve the problem with the airports giving them the wrong equipment[1], also based on apparently failing to understand an anecdote from his private pilot There is actually a very long term project to modernise US ATC (less on safety grounds and more on congestion minimization grounds) it's even one in which theoretically a satellite constellation operator could have some involvement as a data provider. But but it's something of an understatement to suggest that this is unlikely to be advanced by an administration lead by someone who thinks he understands aviation based on misunderstanding his pilot and someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff and whose main goal for the FAA is to deregulate space launches... [1]https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-aviation-industry/ https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...
- blisterpeanuts 2y ago> someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff 400 non-ATC, non-safety related probationary new hires, out of 45,000.
- xnx 2y agoThere is no more thought process than: "Elon smart and hard working. Government employees dumb and lazy (and also woke)"
- ivewonyoung 2y agoWhy is everyone assuming SpaceX is getting paid for this by the government? The article doesn't even say that SpaceX is getting paid by the govt for it, they just put it in the headline and use weasel words in the story to make people come up with assumptions that may not be true. The govt can be paying those folks directly or Musk himself can be paying them like he did for some DOGE team members.
- soco 2y agoBut isn't SpaceX money coming mostly from the government anyway? So still your pockets getting emptied, only over two extra hoops which each take their share as well. All this to bring the magic solution called software engineering because we all know how software consultants always save the business.
- starspangled 2y agoNo it isn't. Most of their revenue comes from starlink and rocket launch services that they sell in open markets. Significant improvement in cost and capabilities over competition that enabled SpaceX to capture so much of the market has massively driven prices down and certainly saved taxpayers a lot of money for the services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competitio... SpaceX does get government grants of course like most companies. It's by far not most of their revenue though, and generally competitively available and tied to particular goals. Investing and supporting in high tech, high value industries like this is often a good thing and returns more than cost to the country, as it certainly has with SpaceX. So it's the opposite of pockets getting emptied.
- blisterpeanuts 2y agoNot to mention the national security advantage of being able to service the ISS and to launch humans into space without help from adversarial regimes.
- karles 2y agoGreat. Lets just have "someone" do "something" while they "might" get paid by "someone". Sounds like the ideal government...
- geetee 2y agoBecause software developers have never worked in an unfamiliar domain, which necessitated interviewing the subject matter experts to gain perspective on their problems and needs.
- stevage 2y agoHistory is absolutely replete with "technologists" underestimating the difficulty of transforming complex government systems. Health, education, why not add aviation safety to the list.
- looofooo0 2y agoWhat specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm? Building software which respect to probabilistic risk analysis. This includes techniques such as abstract interpretation and theorem for for the logic of dynamical system etc. I guess spacex expertise in these realm is quite advanced and they do something useful.
- SirFatty 2y agoSo in other words, you don't really know.
- looofooo0 2y agohttps://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150904-how-spacex-and-boeing-plan-to-keep-nasa-astronauts-safe https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150904-how-spacex-and-b...
- text0404 2y agonone of this has anything to do with air traffic control. and it's about NASA's agreement with contractors like SpaceX, not SpaceX's relationship with the FAA.
- looofooo0 2y agoSure, but they need to calculate risk of their stuff. So they at least know how to do that. So they will understand how risk assessment works and can apply this into analyzing system used and evaluating available system on the markets. Anyway this is the least concern of what the Trump admin is doing. They siding with Russia putting America's carefully crafted world order down the drain. Read: winter is coming - garry kasparov
- jhanschoo 2y agoMy understanding regarding ATC issues today is that they are terribly understaffed, and several news outlets have reported on this. If that is the case I don't know how much fancy modelling can help.
- JohnTHaller 2y agoSpaceX has no experience with air traffic control. It's just more corruption. We definitely don't want a startup that "moves fast and breaks things" having anything to do with air traffic control.
- John23832 2y agoThe idea the solution any of society’s issues is “integrate more of Elon’s businesses”, is blatant corruption.
- Zealotux 2y agoSuch systems are designed and fine-tuned over decades of sometimes hard-learned lessons. This is not meant as a political comment, but people will likely die as a result of this.
- r0ckarong 2y agoAs intended, then you can blame the previous system for all the failures.
- zitsarethecure 2y agoAnd then you can privatize the entire system. And who will be first in line for it? You guessed it, SpaceX. Corruption from top to bottom.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoI mean the previous systems do need an overhaul, but that should be and is being done slowly and meticulously. The SpaceX people - whoever they are - will have the credentials to design a new system I'm sure, but probably not without breaking things for years to come. And they can't just rip it out and replace it, that would likely cripple airlines. Which may be by design of course, but why would they want their own people to no longer be able to fly?
- staunton 2y ago> breaking things You mean: "killing people"?
- exodust 2y agoDie as a result of giving attention to and upgrading air traffic control systems? Didn't a bunch of people die recently as a result of not intervening in this manner? The Verge is... often a nauseating experience because between every line they're hammering a side-hustle point with blunt force. Duffy: "I’m asking for help from any high-tech American developer or company that is willing to give back to our country..." Duffy: "...learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system....Zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go" Sounds like they're asking air traffic controllers what they need. I doubt Musk will storm in with kitchen sink, light a cigar and put his boots up on the console.
- dtjb 2y agoThe quote from Duffy indicates that the SpaceX team doesn't have any real knowledge about or experience with the FAA systems. Seems like they're being brought in just because they're a Musk company.
- MPSimmons 2y agoYeah, his history is basically bringing in people he can trust because he can control them and then making them do what he wants to get the outcome he needs. It's a pattern across all of his companies and endeavors.
- dtjb 2y agoCompared to what, just rolling the dice? SpaceX isn't the only shop that can deliver against requirements. Procurement bids should be transparent and avoid the illusion of conflict. This is the complete opposite of that. It's hard to take Musk's campaign against "fraud and waste" serious when he's awarding the contracts to himself.
- MPSimmons 2y ago100%, this is very definitely him acting immorally and illegally.
- simonh 2y agoAs against bringing in people he can’t trust or control, to not do what he wants, and get an outcome he doesn’t need. I think this move is a mistake, but what your describing there is just competent management.
- starspangled 2y agoThe quote also doesn't indicate the SpaceX team is being "brought in to overhaul FAA systems", that seems like a big mistake if that tweet is all they are basing it on. The tweet says the FAA is tasked with overhauling their ATC system, and people from SpaceX are visiting to share ideas, and it seems to include an open invitation to others to do the same. Political pettiness, and speculation about whether Musk got some special favor or advantage that would not be available to other companies aside, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to get cross-pollination and share ideas with other organizations and fields. SpaceX may not know much about ATC but they probably do know something about monitoring and control and collision avoidance in rockets and satellites.
- netbioserror 2y ago[flagged]
- niemandhier 2y agoReminds me of how it is claimed the Germany’s air traffic control is claimed have been eMacs based in the 90‘s https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26202517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26202517
- DonHopkins 2y agoJust wait until Trump pardons Jeffrey Skilling, and puts him in charge of the Department of Energy Office of Electricity, to overhaul grid modernization, cybersecurity, and resilience running the national power grid, the Energy Information Administration, to provide power grid data and analysis, and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to regulate interstate electricity transmission, wholesale power markets, and reliability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling
- sbennettmcleish 2y agoLOL ... well that's more than a tad ridic. An additional private generator might be in order if you're in the US.
- skrebbel 2y agoI recognize that "Trump outrage" was passé before his term even started, but can we call it out? This is called "corruption", there's no other word for it. President giving sweet gigs to his cronies, just like in Russia and Hungary.
- risyachka 2y agoYeah everyone suddenly has no balls to say anything to Trump. Congress, courts - silence. Everyone suddenly is afraid to speak. Pretty sad.
- PaywallBuster 2y agobefore coming to say that Musk is getting government contracts due to corruption/special access please read the full article > get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system > [media] will claim Elon’s team is getting special access, let me make clear that the @FAANews regularly gives tours of the command center to both media and companies
- UrineSqueegee 2y ago" Duffy said the team from SpaceX went to Virginia to “get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.”" I don't understand how anyone can be reasonably against this? They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.
- rimbo789 2y agoThat is astounding naive take. Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption.
- BluSyn 2y agoWe clearly have very different definitions of corruption. Actual aeronautics engineers with hands-on expertise offering advice on how to modernize air safety systems does not fall within my definition of corruption.
- defrost 2y ago> with hands-on expertise in Air Traffic Control? At SpaceX? Do tell . . . These aren't the same domains. That technical nitpick aside, this is a classic business move whereby a preferred and privileged private operator gets exclusive ground floor access to get in on a leech like remora attachment to a spigot of public funds for decades. That's the corruption part, not the touchy feely first phase "just some experts having a look".
- UrineSqueegee 2y ago>Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption. You must be lost? Please take your Musk derangement syndrome somewhere else. reddit.com
- CPLX 2y agoWhen logic doesn’t agree with reality examine your assumptions. The first assumption to examine is the one where you assume that the speaker is credible.
- mattkevan 2y agoThe rapid unscheduled disassembly continues
- zitterbewegung 2y agoBefore all of the crashes recently with the FAA it has been having a large resource gap (for more than a decade) and that there was a plan in 2024 was on plan to hire thousands. [1][2] This got to the point that they were cutting minimum flying requirements (airlines losing takeoffs and landing slots) [3]. A big problem with even getting people to have a job at the ATC is that it doesn't really pay that well and the main source of hiring of people is former pilots especially when it can have long hours and shifts. I see this more as what happens when you stretch recommended staffing levels to the point where 90% of ATC towers are understaffed[4]. [1]https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/controller_staffing/ https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/controller_staf... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-cuts-minimum-flight-requirements-new-york-airports-through-late-2024-2023-09-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-cuts-minimum-flight-... [3]https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-nominee-says-agency-must-address-air-traffic-staffing-shortage-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-nomin... [4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/over-90-percent-u-s-airport-towers-understaffed-air-traffic-controllers-data-shows/#:~:text=The%20data%20shows%20staffing%20at,87%25%20if%20trainees%20are%20included. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/over-90-percent-u-s-airport-tow...
- aithrowawaycomm 2y agoI expect SpaceX to use the same care, patience, humility, and honesty as DOGE: Trump administration fires and then tries to rehire nuclear weapons workers in DOGE reversal https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons-workers-reversing/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons... USDA accidentally fired officials working on bird flu and is now trying to rehire them https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fired-officials-bird-flu-rehire-rcna192716 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fire... And some strong evidence that DOGE is rewriting government databases to cover their tracks: https://xcancel.com/electricfutures/status/1892019652835807319#m https://xcancel.com/electricfutures/status/18920196528358073... (Note how petty this is - DOGE appears to be falsifying data rather than publicly admitting they were wrong! I assume Elon is personally responsible, just like Trump personally drew on the map with a Sharpie.)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- DrNosferatu 2y agoFrom another continent, genuinely curious about Trump voters on this: - Does anyone here at HN stand for this action? - If so, do you think there's a conflict of interest? How do stand on this possible conflict?
- ap99 2y agoIf you just look at this part: > ...look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system. Do you think there is anything wrong?
- aurareturn 2y agoThe process seems fine. But why SpaceX?
- starspangled 2y agoThe tweet contained an open call for others to also collaborate. Is there any problem with SpaceX doing it or doing it first? I have to admit I get a bit of a knee-jerk reaction about even the appearance of conflict of interest, but if money isn't changing hands then I can't see a problem really. Regulators regularly collaborate with stakeholders, so why not experts in peripheral / somewhat related fields? And really, conflict of interest seems to not matter in the slightest in American politics, what with senators and bureaucrats and their spouses etc getting enormous grants and setting up "non-profits", there must be an enormous list of concerning conflicts worse than this.
- DrNosferatu 2y agoAbsolutely: having a fat dynamic and rolling stock portfolio of the companies whose market you regulate as a member of congress is indeed problematic - but this not what this post is about, is it?
- mysterydip 2y ago
- sega_sai 2y agoHow nice to invite the company that is being regulated and fined multiple times by the FAA ( https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/spacex-forcefully-rejects-faa-allegation-it-violated-launch-requirements-2024-09-19/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/spacex-forcefully-r... ) to overhaul it. This is just batsh*t crazy.
- matwood 2y agoSo how many planes will they get to crash while they figure things out?
- immmmmm 2y agoLooking at some comments suggests quite a few
- beardyw 2y agoMove fast and break things.
- lnsru 2y agoSounds really interesting what’s happening there. Long story short: I once applied as a hardware developer for RF systems. Air traffic control systems were one of the topics. So basically digital solution exists, it’s light years better than current systems. The problem is the more or less simultaneous worldwide rollout of the new systems. On planes and airports… Because nobody wants to pay for a solution that supports both new and old communication standards. The old one is somehow enough for the most of the world.
- transcriptase 2y ago[flagged]
- karles 2y agoEnlighten us, oh enlightened one! I wish to be free of my chains.
- transcriptase 2y agoWhen you find the reasonable non-partisan comments explaining that the article in question is misleading, written by a PAC, or that people are misunderstanding the topic at hand… and they’re always sitting at -40 to -200 and hidden from view you might start questioning a few things.
- karles 2y agoYeah, because "reasonable" is what you find with Trump. Stop trying to apologise for that Orange retard and his horde of shameless minions.
- intended 2y agoCategorizing debate as bot farms, thus rendering engagement moot. Also with vague hand waving gestures, and a voice of authority.
- transcriptase 2y agoThere hasn’t been debate in an r/politics comment section since Obama’s first term. During election years the sub is basically run by David Brock et al.
- thagerty 2y agoI don't know about the crossover of technical expertise, but this smells like the perfect hedge against the possibility that Congress gets the cajones to defund anything Musk is involved with. You get your funding involved/intertwined with public safety issues, and voila, funding requests are fast tracked.
- rookderby 2y agoPlease call your representatives and senators. https://5calls.org/ https://5calls.org/ offers some scripts if you're unsure of what to say.
- nojvek 2y agoHa! reps and senators only listen if you drop them a bag of a few million bucks.
- rasz 2y agoMakes sense. In other news some SpaceX garbage fell on a warehouse in Poland yesterday https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62z3vxjplpo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62z3vxjplpo "an uncontrolled re-entry of the Falcon 9 rocket's second stage occurred between 04:46 and 04:48 on February 19, 2025, over Poland".
- gaganyaan 2y agoCorruption at this level is treason