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On David Lynch's Revenge of the Jedi (2018)
- le-mark 2y agoThis painfully long and meandering piece is about how David Lynch chose to not direct Return of the Jedi. If that interests you, you will enjoy it more than I did!
- potsandpans 2y agoThis painfully dull and inane comment is about how op didnt like the article. If that interests you, you will enjoy it more than I did!
- echelon 2y agoI gave up on the piece after a bit. It's purposefully and painfully obtuse and has far too much misdirection that serves no real purpose: SOMEHOW MY FATHER CONVINCED MY mother to squander a date night and watch David Lynch’s Dune when it was in the theaters in 1984. I was seven; my sister, five. When we asked about the movie, my mother or my father or both—they may’ve coordinated their anecdote—told me they knew they were in trouble when the theater manager handed out to everyone in the audience a one-sheet that attempted to explain the intricacies of the film’s logic. Now I am the theater manager. What’s worse, the production I hope to untangle is my own. So: In 1977, George Lucas released Star Wars. In 1980, he released a sequel, The Empire Strikes Back, and, in 1983, another sequel, Return of the Jedi. During Jedi’s production, and even after its release, Jedi was often referred to as Star Wars III. This is not to be confused with Star Wars Episode Three: Revenge of the Sith, a Star Wars prequel released in 2005. Also, until the end of 1982, Return of the Jedi was titled Revenge of the Jedi. This is not to be confused with Star Wars Episode Three: Revenge of the Sith. And: I write about two directors named David. David Lynch, who wrote and directed Blue Velvet and co-created/directed Twin Peaks, and David Cronenberg, who wrote and directed Videodrome and the 1986 remake of The Fly. I don’t mean for this to be confusing. And: Two excerpts from the screenplay for David Lynch’s Revenge of the Jedi appear in this essay. The first begins, “INTERIOR: DEATH STAR—MAIN DOCKING BAY”; the second begins, “INTERIOR: JABBA’S PALACE—HALLWAY.” Okay. Let’s begin. This, to me, is not an enjoyable read. There are far too many attention sinks in the world, and unfortunately we're only alive for a geologically infinitesimal instant.
- queuebert 2y agoI'm happy to see the decline of the self-indulgent, cognoscente literary tradition. I love words and language and reading, but rarely is expository writing the correct place for word orgies.
- anon84873628 2y agoThese are film wonks doing film wonk things. It's ok if that's not interesting to you. Just like how they probably wouldn't be interested in a detailed story about the creation of a certain programming language.
- ghostly_s 2y agoInventing details of film history and attributing fanfic to the subject is not what I would consider typical "film wonk things."
- inanutshellus 2y agoI was surprised when I hit the end of the article and -- Semi-kidding aside, I /did/ enjoy the script-style format, the scene switches (though some didn't seem to matter), and the scene descriptions from "Revenge" that were so overtly different than "Return". It ended rather weakly though. Feels like it needs to have been wrapped up at the end not "Anyway, one of the many guys we talked about died a while ago. Bye!"
- rdtsc 2y ago> the back of Threepio’s golden head: the reflected light fills the screen, dims as the giant metal door closes behind them—just before we hear the sound of the door’s teeth meet, the light goes—for a long second, we see nothing but the faint, oval-shape of Threepio’s head, then on either side of Threepio’s head, appear the grotesque faces of the palace guards: skin the texture of a slug’s and slick with a sweat of mucus, pink-rimmed snouts, stupid-marble eyes, and yellowed tusks protruding from their lower lip. It's not long before we can feed that script to one of the AI engines and tell it to make a Lynch movie out of it. For other directors I don't know, but for Lynch that would be quite something.
- rainonmoon 2y agoThis actually seems far less likely than for other directors. Lynch's style is so idiosyncratic it has its own name. AI has predominantly been good at synthesizing a broad gesture at a wide range of styles. Not really suited for recreating the effect of such a singular artist.
- rdtsc 2y agoThat's why I think it's a better challenge. AIs can create generic looking scenes but trying to do something that looks like a unique director style is more interesting.
- rainonmoon 2y agoA lot of people in this thread have an extremely facile understanding of art, David Lynch, and the capabilities of generative AI, but I look forward to someone returning to this thread in 10 or 100 years or whatever to link me to a convincing example.
- rdtsc 2y ago> A lot of people in this thread have an extremely facile understanding of art, I don't think anyone would deny Lynch had his own, distinct Lynch-ian stye. A lot of people probably can't describe it clearly in words but they'll recognize when they see it. So I think it's plausible LLMs "getting the gist" of the style and asking them to generate something "Lynch-ian" might just work. I propose a Turing test for it. Show a bunch of people unfamiliar with most of his work some of his works mixed in with some generated, and see if they could tell which is which. It will fail today, but I think in 10 years we'll get there, even if not sooner.
- andrekandre 2y agoendlessly entertaining is lynch describing "next to zero interest" in directing starwars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJQ4vCu-S0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJQ4vCu-S0U
- rl3 2y agoTony Gilroy has expressed similar sentiment, which is apparently a superpower that has enabled him to create some of the best Star Wars to date.
- mvkel 2y ago> next door to zero interest I now use this a few times a month, thanks to this anecdote
- yellow_lead 2y agoI love the part where he describes getting a massive headache. Its so relatable when your body is even telling you it doesn't want to do some big complicated thing.
- y1n0 2y agoI remember as a kid seeing ads on TV for some contest where you could win tickets to be the first to see Revenge of the Jedi. I also remember the name changing when it finally came out. As a kid, I thought Revenge of the Jedi was so much better of a title. As an adult, of course I get how it doesn't fit well with the idea of a Jedi. But I still have to say, Revenge of the Jedi was a kick ass title and Return of the Jedi was very milquetoast.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pavlov 2y agoThey could always go even milder with “Response of the Jedi” — or perhaps take the polite British approach with “Request of the Jedi.”
- jaimebuelta 2y agoMy understanding is that “Revenge” was used during the whole production to capture any leaks. Lucas’ idea was to call it “Return” since the beginning, but everything was labelled “Revenge” so any counterfeit merchandising will be easily spotted.
- Fricken 2y agoThe main thing I learned was that Cronenberg was offered the directing job for ROTJ. Cronenberg was at one time in line to direct Totall Recall, and he wrote a draft of the screenplay. Totall Recall certainly includes a bit of the trademark body horror. Cronenberg made The Fly in Hollywood, and I think it's it's great, but he wasn't able to get much more than that on the go, even though he came close to landing several high profile gigs. In some alternate history timeline Cronenberg's name would have been attached to several big time Hollywood properties, and the world would be mostly the same just a little bit grosser. Of course, I'm happy with Cronenberg's mostly Canadian produced oeuvre the way it is, I just like to wonder. I also used to wonder what the world would look like if Lynch has directed ROTJ, but I came to realize it was a ridiculous premise, Lynch needed far more creative elbow room than what the 3rd instalment of an established franchise could possibly afford, and there was no chance Lynch would ever agree to such a thing. So we got Dune instead and I'm happy with that too.
- jcgrillo 2y ago> Lynch would author the look of Dune. This is so true. The recent films and the spinoff series all look like his Dune.
- colordrops 2y agoLynch Dune is so underrated. The creativity on display was immense. The new Dune movies have amazing craftsmanship but feel as if they were generated by AI, almost every move and visual predictable.
- comebyrrh 2y agoThat’s such a great way to put it. Maybe I’ve just seen TOO many films, but there’s a modern homogeneity in big budget films that is installed as safety guardrails so that audiences aren’t too turned off. It’s visual predictable. I like that. Lynch said bollocks to that.
- boogieknite 2y ago
- gweinberg 2y agoI want to see the Terry Gilliam version. I guess someday I will.
- 0xbadcafebee 2y agoThere are several explanations for why Lynch turned down Lucas’ offer. Kazanjian implied—in either an interview [..] that Lynch turned down the offer because Dino De Laurentiis offered him Dune, an offer Lynch accepted. More recently, Kazanjian said, at a Star Wars Celebration convention in Anaheim, that Lynch wasn’t hired because, “Ah, he didn’t want Johnny Williams to do the music and he didn’t want Ben Burtt—Academy Award winner like three times—to do the sound.” [..] Incredible, yes—as in hard to believe. Kazanjian’s original claim, that Lynch weighed the pros and cons of Lucas’s offer and chose Dune instead, is more credible. Not so much. Lynch already had the idea before Dune that he wanted more creative control because he was afraid what a studio exec would do to his vision. After Dune, he resolved to never give up creative control ever again, and repeated that time and again to anyone who would listen. Sound was incredibly important to Lynch. He produced his own music and partnered with other artists on many of his projects, to get the exact sound he wanted. Lynch having to work with Williams and Burtt would be like Aphex Twin having to work with Walt Disney. I stopped reading as they keep trying to probe what Lynch's Return would be like. It's like asking what David Cronenberg's Toy Story 2 would be like (though obviously that would end up like MAD GOD). Why speculate about something clearly unsuitable, other than for a grim chuckle?
- mopsi 2y agoThe growing headache Lynch mentions is such a great metaphor for the sinking feeling he must have felt as Lucas showed him things that had already been decided for him before he even agreed to direct. Lynch is known not only for paying close attention to sound design, but also for building many props himself to ensure they were exactly as he envisioned.
- hrhbbvjhcxb 2y ago[dead]
- evo_9 2y agoCronenberg’s best film after Videodrome is Existenz; it’s not as we’ll know as The Fly which has always puzzled me.
- colordrops 2y agoIt was before it's time. I don't think audiences understood it.
- js2 2y agoThis was apparently published in 2018: https://www.bennington.edu/news-and-features/bennington-review-issue-five-fauna https://www.bennington.edu/news-and-features/bennington-revi... The issues are frustratingly undated, except the first. It strives to publish twice a year.
- Cockbrand 2y agoI asked Gemini to pretend that David Lynch directed the only existing version of ROTJ and write Roger Ebert's review. It got four stars, and I'd definitely go see it.
- pimeys 2y agoI had to ask the same. You got me interested. Three and a half stars...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bhk 2y agoPet peeve: people saying "A New Hope" when referring to the original 1977 film, which was actually called "Star Wars", dammit.
- tombert 2y agoAbout 15 years ago, I was at a Goodwill store, looking around, and saw a VHS of of Star Wars. It wasn't "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope", it was just called "Star Wars". I knew that that was how it was released, even at the time, but I had thought that by the time it was released on VHS that it would have adopted the new branding. I told my dad about it when I got home, and he was comparably surprised. I didn't (and don't) have a VCR, so I didn't pick it up, but a small part of me wishes I had just as an interesting thing to put on my shelf.
- taylorius 2y agoNo-one ever squanders anything by going to see David Lynch's Dune.