19 ms·

Just to clarify, here are some important differences compared to the Trump case: 1. Milei did not sell this as a memecoin at all, unlike Trump, he sold it as a

by dysoco 2y ago

Just to clarify, here are some important differences compared to the Trump case: 1. Milei did not sell this as a memecoin at all, unlike Trump, he sold it as a "financial instrument to help finance small Argentinan enterprises". 2. Trump tweeted about $TRUMP BEFORE stepping into office, Milei is already the president of Argentina. This constitutes an obvious ethical violation, and possibly a legal one as well. 3. 80% of the marketshare was concentrated in just 10 accounts, these accounts made transactions at 0-1 seconds after the president's tweet. There was some clear insider training here. Was Milei on this or was he just the victim of a scam? In either way he has pictures and met with the coin's creators 3-4 times as the record shows, so he cannot claim he knew nothing about this. I don't personally think he intended to be part of a scam, but it shows some clear incompetence and he cannot promote such things in his official account, scam or not. I hope this helps people from outside Argentina get another view of Javier Milei, I've read way too many uninformed comments here on Hacker News and other sites about how he's a genius in economy and he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters.

draxofavalon 2y ago
Exactly, this was not a memecoin. Agree with your view about Javier Milei.
wmf 2y ago
he sold it as a "financial instrument to help finance small Argentinan enterprises" Is there any evidence that LIBRA can do that? If not it's even more scammy.
- dysoco 2y ago
  Obviously it's just a memecoin, but that's what Milei's tweet said, he never mentioned "meme" in his tweet unlike Trump.
  - lavezzi 2y ago
    > Obviously it's just a memecoin, but that's what Milei's tweet said, he never mentioned "meme" in his tweet unlike Trump. Who gives a shit? Let's stop pretending that utilising the word 'meme' in any sort of associative context is some airtight legal defense against this being a lowest common denominator scam. These are both absolutely illegal and disgusting acts that aim to rob people of their money, using the word meme does not absolve Trump from anything. https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 One of the co-creators of Libra coin reveals that insiders were able to buy into $TRUMP at $500m at a "special access" private dinner in DC, before it went public. He also reveals he was involved in Melania coin too.
    - the_af 2y ago
      > Who gives a shit? Nobody really should. This is just to make the scam more obvious to Milei's shrinking supporters. Milei and his closest circle are now stuck in a loop, trying to argue simultaneously that "$LIBRA and cryptocurrencies are just a gamble, a casino for very technical people", "this only affected a minority of crypto gamblers", and that "he wanted to spread the word about a project that could be good for Argentina". Anyone with a gram of brain matter can tell these assertions are incompatible. And yes, one of the co-creators of $LIBRA candidly said the way these things work, only insiders make money, and the rest loses. He claims he's upset by "insider trading" being considered a naughty thing, when it's "the way these things work". Before anyone asks: I've watched all the interviews, with Milei, his economy minister Caputo, and this Davis guy. Not hearsay, they are literally saying all these things now. It'll be hard to argue Milei is such a savvy guy now (he often makes a show of calling his opponents "econochantas" -- slang for "econo-fraudsters"). And now he's proven himself to be either a bumbling fool, a scammer, or both. A losing proposition for anyone trying to defend his actions.
nextworddev 2y ago
was the coin explicitly sold as a memecoin?
- yalogin 2y ago
  Is it not?
valcron1000 2y ago
[flagged]
- wvlia5 2y ago
  We found the kuka
- 6510 2y ago
  If you are driving the bus you should break and accelerate gently.
- krowek 2y ago
  Easy champ. This is not X.
Panzer04 2y ago
Whatever the stupidity around this memecoin, it's hard to argue he isn't doing something to help the argentinian economy. It turns out it doesn't take much to appear to be an economic genius - just stop spending money the government doesn't have and get rid of onerous market regulations (eg. rent controls). I'm in support of social spending to support those in need, but it's clear Argentina was moving ever-further away from being able to sustain that kind of discretionary spending as a country. They need to get their house in order first.
- karparov 2y ago
  > stop spending money the government doesn't have That shows quite the misconception about what "money" actually is.
  - ttoinou 2y ago
    Not everyone believes in Modern Monetary Theory
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      Not everyone believes the earth isn't flat either unfortunately. There's no need to adhere to a particular economic theory (I'm not particularly familiar with MMT) to realize that, at societies scale, money isn't some kind of scarce commodity.
      - ttoinou 2y ago
        The government spending more money makes money less scarce [0], at any scale (macro, micro etc). That's what we're talking about here. [0] Unless you believe in MMT
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        You're moving the goalpost. Here's the original quote: > stop spending money the government doesn't have Which has nothing to do with your response.
TZubiri 2y ago
Great take regarding 1 and 2. Regarding 3 it seems clear to me that he was not an insider, but he was scammed into spending his political capital and reputation. As a whole, it's classic cargo cult situation,imitating what a more powerful country is doing without understanding the nuances.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  If you as the President get scammed into scamming your people, there should be consequences
- the_af 2y ago
  Milei's hardcore followers are now in an impossible situation: - They can continue claiming their all-knowing leader is an "expert" in everything under the sun. But this means he was an insider! And therefore, he committed a crime. Or, - They can claim he was duped in the silliest way possible. I mean, $LIBRA had every possible red flag and anyone with half a brain could tell it was a meme coin. So, that must mean Milei is not as intelligent as his closest followers claim. Also, he, the president of Argentina, claimed he promoted the meme coin because "he wasn't aware of the details". If he wasn't aware of the details, why did he promote it? Will he also promote random miracle cures? Or only if -- as some people are already claiming -- some money is passed under the table?
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    Or 3: he was ill advised from someone in his close circle, and their head will roll, but I don't see any minister that would take the fall, maybe a kid under the economy minister, either truly responsible or willing scapegoat
- lavezzi 2y ago
  > Great take regarding 1 and 2. lmao, where is the great take? Regardless of whether this was marketed as as memecoin or a "financial instrument to help finance small Argentinan enterprises" they are fundamentally the same thing - a fucking scam. This is equivocal to the amount of effort you would put in to polishing a turd - it doesn't matter as the end result is exactly the same. What makes it worse is that you'd expect that the Incumbent President of the free world to be held to a higher standard. Not only that, but one of the co-creators of Libra coin has revealed that insiders were able to buy into $TRUMP at $500m at a "special access" private dinner in DC, before it went public. He also reveals he was involved in Melania coin too. https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241
JavierFlores09 2y ago
> If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. This is a hasty generalization; while I agree on the fact that Milei was incompetent in promoting a memecoin as a financial instrument, that doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad economist all of the sudden, nor that the things he has done for Argentina are inherently bad, it just means he was incompetent on this matter. I am painfully aware of how divided the country is on the current government and its actions, however that doesn't invite sweeping judgments based on a single event. Criticism should be specific and supported by broader evidence rather than assuming total incompetence from one mistake.
- coffeebeqn 2y ago
  How would he not be? If he did zero due diligence on this and then pitched it to his countrymen as an investment. Incredibly poor judgement no?
  - seu 2y ago
    And not only as an investment, but as one that can lead to the salvation of the country...
  - hawk_ 2y ago
    Finance, Dealmaking and Economics are vastly different fields. Just because one is bad at one of them doesn't mean they can't be good at the others.
  - andriesm 2y ago
    It's pretty bad, but smart people do stupid things all the time. Hopefully he learns from this mistake. And as pointed out, it does not automatically make all his prior decisions bad - we can actually analyse them each on their individual merit.
    - toss1 2y ago
      >>smart people do stupid things all the time That may explain it but it does NOT excuse it or the consequences. Smart people are also supposed to consider the consequences of their actions a bit more deeply than dumb people, and leaders are supposed to surround themselves with even smarter and more broadly experienced advisers to alert them to potential stupid actions and so moderate their actions to avoid harming others (as well as harming their own reputation or standing). >>Hopefully he learns from this mistake. ... Right: so just let smart people with a lot of power make whatever mistakes come along that damage others but face zero consequences for them beyond "we hope they learn". That is an excuse for keeping incompetent autocrats or oligarchs in power, not a plan for a sustainable and growing complex society. Milei should face whatever consequences apply in his country to any person loudly promoting a fraud with a large platform. But he probably will not, Such a lack of consequences should be recognized as a wrong, not merely dismissed with a shrug. Sheesh
lovich 2y ago
>I hope this helps people from outside Argentina get another view of Javier Milei, I've read way too many uninformed comments here on Hacker News and other sites about how he's a genius in economy and he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. If relying on multiple clones of his dead dog, that he also named after libertarian philosophers, to give him policy advice as President didnt tip anyone off, I dont think shilling a meme coin rug pull is going to change their minds
- Xuban 2y ago
  I don't think this is the approach if you want people to side against Milei. His economic results are crystal clear: inflation is way down, the economy is growing, percentage of poor people is down, the debt and the stock market are way up, salaries are up and so on.
  - lovich 2y ago
    I have no desire if to influence if people side with or against Milei. If you want to follow him, by all means go for it. I am however, still going to mock obviously bat shit insane ideas, and telepathically speaking with your cloned dogs for policy advice is absolutely bat shit insane
    - kjksf 2y ago
      It would be if it was true. He apparently did clone his dogs but can you point to the source material (in this case Milei) about speaking with them telepathically? This just sounds super made up. I've listen to his interview with Lex F. and his WEF speech and he sounded like a principled free market advocate. Not a single thing he said was crazy so I wonder where did you get this factoid. Milei has certainly been smeared as right-wing so I wouldn't be surprised with other smears as well.
      - 2y ago
otherme123 2y ago
> he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. Oh, could he be a lot further from the truth! He could have done at least a couple of orders of magnitude worst with inflation (it was 300% and rising in its peak last year, expected to be 25% this year: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-economy-seen-growing-45-inflation-cooling-under-26-2025-01-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-economy-see...). In the same link, economy is growing/expected at 4.5% this year. The government is at a surplus. The interest rate the state pays on its debt is 29% which looks incredibly high until you see this data: https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/interest-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/interest-rate . Yes, that was a 126% interest when Milei got there. In fact, it is a miracle that Argentina didn't default this year, as they had to do the biggest repay in three years (https://buenosairesherald.com/economics/argentina-pays-us4-3-billion-in-biggest-debt-payment-in-three-years https://buenosairesherald.com/economics/argentina-pays-us4-3...). > If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. This is the fallacy of composition: "is he was wrong about this then it is wrong about absolutely everything he does", which can't be further from the truth, and is behind some people falling in traps like the sunk cost fallacy ("I can't be wrong about this and cut loses, or people will think I'm wrong about everything"), or insufferable people that double down on their mistakes or enter a train of lies, and would do almost anything except accept they were wrong.
- Daishiman 2y ago
  > In the same link, economy is growing/expected at 4.5% this year. We have had these projections for every government since 2001 that have been sheer conjecture just like in 2017. This means nothing. > This is the fallacy of composition: "is he was wrong about this then it is wrong about absolutely everything he does" Is is obvious that you have never seen the man tweet or be interviewed about anything of substance. He is a sheer, utter moron, who holds a fake doctorate from a degree mill and master's from a third-rate university that is notorious for being singled-out in hiring applications that explicitly exclude its graduates for how bad it is. I have seen said applications when looking at job boards in the early aughts.
AbraKdabra 2y ago
> ...and he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. Tell me you don't live in Argentina without telling me you live in Argentina.
- _t9ow 2y ago
  How are comments like this ("Tell me X without telling me X") helpful? This is such a low-effort reply; at least briefly explain why you disagree with OP.
  - AbraKdabra 2y ago
    Why am I being judged by a low effort reply when even OP didn't care to tell us in detail why "Milei helping the economy is far from the truth". Such stupidity should only be answered with another low effort statement. It doesn't care where you are in the political spectrum, objectively Milei is annihilating inflation, we have primary superavit, lowered state expenses among other fantastic things he did for our country and we are doing great, a lot more is needed but we have 3 more years ahead. Saying he's not helping the economy can only be justified by not living here and having no fucking idea how we are doing. I live here, so I can tell you we are doing FAR better than a year ago.
    - the_af 2y ago
      A very partisan statement from you. In reality, Milei is wrecking our country. Very high cost of living, poor people begging on the streets, inflation kept low at the cost of depressing the economy and wrecking our industry, factories closing down, etc. It's not hard to keep inflation low if you're willing to destroy the country. And, you know, being involved in crypto-scams. But that's just the cherry on top. Maybe his dead dog Conan told him to do it, or so his medium told him. (Yes, he does speak to his dead dog via a medium, not making this up).
lavezzi 2y ago
> 2. Trump tweeted about $TRUMP BEFORE stepping into office, Milei is already the president of Argentina. This constitutes an obvious ethical violation, and possibly a legal one as well. As in three days before Trump's inauguration? And then $MELANIA the day before? Yes, absolutely no obvious ethical violation there (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-new-crypto-coin-sparks-ethics-concerns-2025-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-new-crypto-coin-spar...). > The companies behind the Trump token, CIC Digital LLC, an affiliate of the Trump Organization, and Fight Fight Fight LLC, co-owned by CIC Digital, collectively own 80% of the tokens, meaning that Trump-linked businesses could have gained $8 billion worth of crypto over the weekend.
southernplaces7 2y ago
>and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. Okay, so please cite a few more examples of how his economic policies are so terrible in so many ways, particularly compared to the literal decades of economic mismanagement under most of the country's previous governments, and their largess for the sake of garnering supporters. >If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. Any leader can make a blunder on something or another, even one managing an otherwise complex but possibly successful economic plan. How about an explanation of how incompetent his government is on other matters instead of asking people to "imagine"? Given the kinds of policies previous Argentine governments regularly enacted, i'd be willing to forgive something like this, and I'd mistrust the ideology behind your reasoning if you can know about the political history of the country while putting special emphasis on this particular apparent scam.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Uh, let's not do that? You can criticize his policies just fine without talking about what preceded him.
  - southernplaces7 2y ago
    Really? A politician shouldn't be criticized or applauded within the context of the long-running political system that preceded him and just maybe, you know, possibly might have had something to do with his being elected, the choices he makes, and their social effects? Don't be ridiculous. Decades of abysmal government in Argentina is damn important in any conversation about its current administration.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      A lot of words for, let’s remind ourselves, is a head of state endorsing a crypto scam. I’d be far more sympathetic if this was a discussion of something complex like Argentina’s economy. It’s not.
- wezen 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
CraigJPerry 2y ago
>> how he's a genius in economy and he's helping Argentina's economy If he doesn’t succeed, it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue. With heavyweights such as George Selgin endorsing Milei’s performance to date, it’s going to require some very adept use of the reverse gear if things are subsequently judged not to have panned out as planned (which appears to be the typical outcome of other attempts to apply this school of thought throughout history). The world does seem very accepting of the current increased poverty levels in Argentina - “it’s always been this way”, “it was just under reported before” etc etc. Maybe. From a purely human point of view I hope they succeed. The timing could be excellent for them, a Return to prosperity given the current global situation wrt world order and demographics could conceivably put Argentina in a very advantageous position economically? I have grave reservations about the social science called economics though, well specifically “macro economics”. I worry that this experiment just leads to even more suffering.
- tim333 2y ago
  It's been a very messy experiment - he is limited politically in what he can actually do. As as result it's going to be hard to draw firm conclusions about Austrian economics.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue It doesn't have to be based in reality. They can just roll out the same argument as "true communism has never been tried", but from the right. Ultimately Argentina never recovered from the collapse in value of being a food exporter. They're never going to recover until they can sort out the good old balance of payments problem. Doing so is going to be unavoidably uncomfortable as imports get relatively really expensive.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > If he doesn’t succeed, it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue. ... Not sure about that; it's not like it has had many success stories, and it somehow manages to chug along.
mrbombastic 2y ago
I know very little about Milei other than a few articles I have read but as someone who has been visiting Argentina on and off for the last 3 years, it does seem to me he has at least stabilized the currency much more than previous admins? I remember the bluerate for dollars being double the previous almost every time I returned and has now stabilized at around 1200 per dollar. I leave no comment on the rest of his policies but that rate of inflation seemed extremely unsustainable so this is no small feat. https://bluedollar.net/ https://bluedollar.net/ I will admit to being uninformed so if something else is going on here I would like to understand.
- ajot 2y ago
  Well, that's true, but I think it's based on the economic plan by Caputo. Argentina is very presidentialist and personalist, so everyone thinks this is Milei's doing, but most of the economic measures are done by people from other political party (PRO), with plans that were in the working for at least 2 years for it's candidates. They have nothing to do with what Milei campaigned with.
- dysoco 2y ago
  The price of the dollar doesn't mean too much, the real cost in USD of living is through the roof and the official inflation index is not reflecting that, what's worse, if your salary is in USD or was tied to USD now you earn even less because they are pegging it so it doesn't go up. Perhaps he did slow down the inflation a bit, sure, but it's easy to cut government spending when you are basically going into debt with your citizens, not paying government salaries, government contracts, etc. Pretty much everyone in the public scientific or health sector has seen their purchasing power slashed to half, and some of those haven't been paid for a couple of months either.
- xinayder 2y ago
  In 2015 Brazilians could do a lot in Argentina for as low as R$30. Nowadays, buying food costs almost R$120 ($20 in todays rate). Inflation can be stable, but cost of living has gone through the roof for almost a decade now, and Milei managed to speedrun it to a point that a lot of Argentinians are below the line of poverty.
koolba 2y ago
> 80% of the marketshare was concentrated in just 10 accounts, these accounts made transactions at 0-1 seconds after the president's tweet. There was some clear insider training here. Not ruling it out, but it’s just as possible that there are bots analyzing the X accounts of leaders and other notable people to jump in front of any such actions. Would simply be a matter of parsing for something that looks like a token address or links to the same. Buck shot some small amount that is sure to balloon when it actually hits. You’ll get burned by scams and account hijacks, but just one payoff would surely cover it all.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  > but it’s just as possible that there are bots analyzing the X accounts of leaders and other notable people Nah. Leaders and other notable people don't go around talking about niche subjects for no reason at all. It's way more likely that whoever made the transaction caused Milei talking about the coin (by whatever means you want to imagine, usually notable people accept money to promote things, but as much as Milei sound stupid enough to think he can do that as president - what is already a crime - I still expect it to be worse). Also, there is the clear relationship between him and the coin creators.
  - the_af 2y ago
    > usually notable people accept money to promote things Some businessmen and entrepreneurs (or shady kinds of guys calling themselves so, anyway) are already denouncing Milei (or his close representatives, like his sister Karina, nicknamed "the boss") demanded money in exchange for favors / photo ops / etc. These are guys who have photos with him, not random strangers. I think there's little doubt Milei is dirty, for all his talk denouncing the "political caste".
rsynnott 2y ago
Yeah, this pretty much shows him up, as either best-case, an idiot (duped by an obvious fraud) or worst-case, part of the fraud himself.
- the_af 2y ago
  Milei's hardcore followers are still reeling. Either way, they'll have a hard time justifying his actions. His reputation has taken a major hit.
rsynnott 2y ago
I mean, honestly, I think Milei has a bit more plausible deniability here; he _could_ merely be extremely gullible/incompetent. Trump deliberately fleeced his supporters; it's very hard to read his shitcoin any other way.
abc123abc123 2y ago
Nonsense. "A few hours ago I posted a tweet, as I have so many other times, supporting a supposed private enterprise with which I obviously have no connection whatsoever," Milei wrote. "I was not aware of the details of the project and after having become aware of it I decided not to continue spreading the word (that is why I deleted the tweet)." quote from Milei. The big problem is that people might (or might not) buy crypto based on tweets. No shadow falls over Milei here, one of the true geniuses of our life time! He has done so much for Argentina, freeing it from socialism, and I won't stop until the last remnants and traces of socialism has been eradicated from the argentine psyche. Then argentina will rise as a great financial power, built on solid capitalist and libertarian values. I think there will be a lot of brain drain from the socialist EU to Argentina in a few years time. The question is if Argentina would want to receive the millions of refugees from the EU?

by dysoco 2y ago

draxofavalon 2y ago

Exactly, this was not a memecoin. Agree with your view about Javier Milei.

wmf 2y ago

he sold it as a "financial instrument to help finance small Argentinan enterprises" Is there any evidence that LIBRA can do that? If not it's even more scammy.

dysoco 2y ago
Obviously it's just a memecoin, but that's what Milei's tweet said, he never mentioned "meme" in his tweet unlike Trump.
- lavezzi 2y ago
  > Obviously it's just a memecoin, but that's what Milei's tweet said, he never mentioned "meme" in his tweet unlike Trump. Who gives a shit? Let's stop pretending that utilising the word 'meme' in any sort of associative context is some airtight legal defense against this being a lowest common denominator scam. These are both absolutely illegal and disgusting acts that aim to rob people of their money, using the word meme does not absolve Trump from anything. https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 One of the co-creators of Libra coin reveals that insiders were able to buy into $TRUMP at $500m at a "special access" private dinner in DC, before it went public. He also reveals he was involved in Melania coin too.
  - the_af 2y ago
    > Who gives a shit? Nobody really should. This is just to make the scam more obvious to Milei's shrinking supporters. Milei and his closest circle are now stuck in a loop, trying to argue simultaneously that "$LIBRA and cryptocurrencies are just a gamble, a casino for very technical people", "this only affected a minority of crypto gamblers", and that "he wanted to spread the word about a project that could be good for Argentina". Anyone with a gram of brain matter can tell these assertions are incompatible. And yes, one of the co-creators of $LIBRA candidly said the way these things work, only insiders make money, and the rest loses. He claims he's upset by "insider trading" being considered a naughty thing, when it's "the way these things work". Before anyone asks: I've watched all the interviews, with Milei, his economy minister Caputo, and this Davis guy. Not hearsay, they are literally saying all these things now. It'll be hard to argue Milei is such a savvy guy now (he often makes a show of calling his opponents "econochantas" -- slang for "econo-fraudsters"). And now he's proven himself to be either a bumbling fool, a scammer, or both. A losing proposition for anyone trying to defend his actions.

nextworddev 2y ago

was the coin explicitly sold as a memecoin?

yalogin 2y ago
Is it not?

valcron1000 2y ago

[flagged]

wvlia5 2y ago
We found the kuka
6510 2y ago
If you are driving the bus you should break and accelerate gently.
krowek 2y ago
Easy champ. This is not X.

Panzer04 2y ago

Whatever the stupidity around this memecoin, it's hard to argue he isn't doing something to help the argentinian economy. It turns out it doesn't take much to appear to be an economic genius - just stop spending money the government doesn't have and get rid of onerous market regulations (eg. rent controls). I'm in support of social spending to support those in need, but it's clear Argentina was moving ever-further away from being able to sustain that kind of discretionary spending as a country. They need to get their house in order first.

karparov 2y ago
> stop spending money the government doesn't have That shows quite the misconception about what "money" actually is.
- ttoinou 2y ago
  Not everyone believes in Modern Monetary Theory
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    Not everyone believes the earth isn't flat either unfortunately. There's no need to adhere to a particular economic theory (I'm not particularly familiar with MMT) to realize that, at societies scale, money isn't some kind of scarce commodity.
    - ttoinou 2y ago
      The government spending more money makes money less scarce [0], at any scale (macro, micro etc). That's what we're talking about here. [0] Unless you believe in MMT
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        You're moving the goalpost. Here's the original quote: > stop spending money the government doesn't have Which has nothing to do with your response.

TZubiri 2y ago

Great take regarding 1 and 2. Regarding 3 it seems clear to me that he was not an insider, but he was scammed into spending his political capital and reputation. As a whole, it's classic cargo cult situation,imitating what a more powerful country is doing without understanding the nuances.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
If you as the President get scammed into scamming your people, there should be consequences
the_af 2y ago
Milei's hardcore followers are now in an impossible situation: - They can continue claiming their all-knowing leader is an "expert" in everything under the sun. But this means he was an insider! And therefore, he committed a crime. Or, - They can claim he was duped in the silliest way possible. I mean, $LIBRA had every possible red flag and anyone with half a brain could tell it was a meme coin. So, that must mean Milei is not as intelligent as his closest followers claim. Also, he, the president of Argentina, claimed he promoted the meme coin because "he wasn't aware of the details". If he wasn't aware of the details, why did he promote it? Will he also promote random miracle cures? Or only if -- as some people are already claiming -- some money is passed under the table?
- TZubiri 2y ago
  Or 3: he was ill advised from someone in his close circle, and their head will roll, but I don't see any minister that would take the fall, maybe a kid under the economy minister, either truly responsible or willing scapegoat
lavezzi 2y ago
> Great take regarding 1 and 2. lmao, where is the great take? Regardless of whether this was marketed as as memecoin or a "financial instrument to help finance small Argentinan enterprises" they are fundamentally the same thing - a fucking scam. This is equivocal to the amount of effort you would put in to polishing a turd - it doesn't matter as the end result is exactly the same. What makes it worse is that you'd expect that the Incumbent President of the free world to be held to a higher standard. Not only that, but one of the co-creators of Libra coin has revealed that insiders were able to buy into $TRUMP at $500m at a "special access" private dinner in DC, before it went public. He also reveals he was involved in Melania coin too. https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241 https://youtu.be/EqizJTbxAEM?t=3241

JavierFlores09 2y ago

> If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. This is a hasty generalization; while I agree on the fact that Milei was incompetent in promoting a memecoin as a financial instrument, that doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad economist all of the sudden, nor that the things he has done for Argentina are inherently bad, it just means he was incompetent on this matter. I am painfully aware of how divided the country is on the current government and its actions, however that doesn't invite sweeping judgments based on a single event. Criticism should be specific and supported by broader evidence rather than assuming total incompetence from one mistake.

coffeebeqn 2y ago
How would he not be? If he did zero due diligence on this and then pitched it to his countrymen as an investment. Incredibly poor judgement no?
- seu 2y ago
  And not only as an investment, but as one that can lead to the salvation of the country...
- hawk_ 2y ago
  Finance, Dealmaking and Economics are vastly different fields. Just because one is bad at one of them doesn't mean they can't be good at the others.
- andriesm 2y ago
  It's pretty bad, but smart people do stupid things all the time. Hopefully he learns from this mistake. And as pointed out, it does not automatically make all his prior decisions bad - we can actually analyse them each on their individual merit.
  - toss1 2y ago
    >>smart people do stupid things all the time That may explain it but it does NOT excuse it or the consequences. Smart people are also supposed to consider the consequences of their actions a bit more deeply than dumb people, and leaders are supposed to surround themselves with even smarter and more broadly experienced advisers to alert them to potential stupid actions and so moderate their actions to avoid harming others (as well as harming their own reputation or standing). >>Hopefully he learns from this mistake. ... Right: so just let smart people with a lot of power make whatever mistakes come along that damage others but face zero consequences for them beyond "we hope they learn". That is an excuse for keeping incompetent autocrats or oligarchs in power, not a plan for a sustainable and growing complex society. Milei should face whatever consequences apply in his country to any person loudly promoting a fraud with a large platform. But he probably will not, Such a lack of consequences should be recognized as a wrong, not merely dismissed with a shrug. Sheesh

lovich 2y ago

>I hope this helps people from outside Argentina get another view of Javier Milei, I've read way too many uninformed comments here on Hacker News and other sites about how he's a genius in economy and he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. If relying on multiple clones of his dead dog, that he also named after libertarian philosophers, to give him policy advice as President didnt tip anyone off, I dont think shilling a meme coin rug pull is going to change their minds

Xuban 2y ago
I don't think this is the approach if you want people to side against Milei. His economic results are crystal clear: inflation is way down, the economy is growing, percentage of poor people is down, the debt and the stock market are way up, salaries are up and so on.
- lovich 2y ago
  I have no desire if to influence if people side with or against Milei. If you want to follow him, by all means go for it. I am however, still going to mock obviously bat shit insane ideas, and telepathically speaking with your cloned dogs for policy advice is absolutely bat shit insane
  - kjksf 2y ago
    It would be if it was true. He apparently did clone his dogs but can you point to the source material (in this case Milei) about speaking with them telepathically? This just sounds super made up. I've listen to his interview with Lex F. and his WEF speech and he sounded like a principled free market advocate. Not a single thing he said was crazy so I wonder where did you get this factoid. Milei has certainly been smeared as right-wing so I wouldn't be surprised with other smears as well.
    - 2y ago

otherme123 2y ago

> he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. Oh, could he be a lot further from the truth! He could have done at least a couple of orders of magnitude worst with inflation (it was 300% and rising in its peak last year, expected to be 25% this year: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-economy-seen-growing-45-inflation-cooling-under-26-2025-01-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-economy-see...). In the same link, economy is growing/expected at 4.5% this year. The government is at a surplus. The interest rate the state pays on its debt is 29% which looks incredibly high until you see this data: https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/interest-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/interest-rate . Yes, that was a 126% interest when Milei got there. In fact, it is a miracle that Argentina didn't default this year, as they had to do the biggest repay in three years (https://buenosairesherald.com/economics/argentina-pays-us4-3-billion-in-biggest-debt-payment-in-three-years https://buenosairesherald.com/economics/argentina-pays-us4-3...). > If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. This is the fallacy of composition: "is he was wrong about this then it is wrong about absolutely everything he does", which can't be further from the truth, and is behind some people falling in traps like the sunk cost fallacy ("I can't be wrong about this and cut loses, or people will think I'm wrong about everything"), or insufferable people that double down on their mistakes or enter a train of lies, and would do almost anything except accept they were wrong.

Daishiman 2y ago
> In the same link, economy is growing/expected at 4.5% this year. We have had these projections for every government since 2001 that have been sheer conjecture just like in 2017. This means nothing. > This is the fallacy of composition: "is he was wrong about this then it is wrong about absolutely everything he does" Is is obvious that you have never seen the man tweet or be interviewed about anything of substance. He is a sheer, utter moron, who holds a fake doctorate from a degree mill and master's from a third-rate university that is notorious for being singled-out in hiring applications that explicitly exclude its graduates for how bad it is. I have seen said applications when looking at job boards in the early aughts.

AbraKdabra 2y ago

> ...and he's helping Argentina's economy, and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. Tell me you don't live in Argentina without telling me you live in Argentina.

_t9ow 2y ago
How are comments like this ("Tell me X without telling me X") helpful? This is such a low-effort reply; at least briefly explain why you disagree with OP.
- AbraKdabra 2y ago
  Why am I being judged by a low effort reply when even OP didn't care to tell us in detail why "Milei helping the economy is far from the truth". Such stupidity should only be answered with another low effort statement. It doesn't care where you are in the political spectrum, objectively Milei is annihilating inflation, we have primary superavit, lowered state expenses among other fantastic things he did for our country and we are doing great, a lot more is needed but we have 3 more years ahead. Saying he's not helping the economy can only be justified by not living here and having no fucking idea how we are doing. I live here, so I can tell you we are doing FAR better than a year ago.
  - the_af 2y ago
    A very partisan statement from you. In reality, Milei is wrecking our country. Very high cost of living, poor people begging on the streets, inflation kept low at the cost of depressing the economy and wrecking our industry, factories closing down, etc. It's not hard to keep inflation low if you're willing to destroy the country. And, you know, being involved in crypto-scams. But that's just the cherry on top. Maybe his dead dog Conan told him to do it, or so his medium told him. (Yes, he does speak to his dead dog via a medium, not making this up).

lavezzi 2y ago

> 2. Trump tweeted about $TRUMP BEFORE stepping into office, Milei is already the president of Argentina. This constitutes an obvious ethical violation, and possibly a legal one as well. As in three days before Trump's inauguration? And then $MELANIA the day before? Yes, absolutely no obvious ethical violation there (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-new-crypto-coin-sparks-ethics-concerns-2025-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-new-crypto-coin-spar...). > The companies behind the Trump token, CIC Digital LLC, an affiliate of the Trump Organization, and Fight Fight Fight LLC, co-owned by CIC Digital, collectively own 80% of the tokens, meaning that Trump-linked businesses could have gained $8 billion worth of crypto over the weekend.

southernplaces7 2y ago

>and that cannot be further from the truth sadly. Okay, so please cite a few more examples of how his economic policies are so terrible in so many ways, particularly compared to the literal decades of economic mismanagement under most of the country's previous governments, and their largess for the sake of garnering supporters. >If he made such a blunder in finance which supposedly is one of his specialties just imagine how incompetent he and most of the government right now is on other matters. Any leader can make a blunder on something or another, even one managing an otherwise complex but possibly successful economic plan. How about an explanation of how incompetent his government is on other matters instead of asking people to "imagine"? Given the kinds of policies previous Argentine governments regularly enacted, i'd be willing to forgive something like this, and I'd mistrust the ideology behind your reasoning if you can know about the political history of the country while putting special emphasis on this particular apparent scam.

saagarjha 2y ago
Uh, let's not do that? You can criticize his policies just fine without talking about what preceded him.
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  Really? A politician shouldn't be criticized or applauded within the context of the long-running political system that preceded him and just maybe, you know, possibly might have had something to do with his being elected, the choices he makes, and their social effects? Don't be ridiculous. Decades of abysmal government in Argentina is damn important in any conversation about its current administration.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    A lot of words for, let’s remind ourselves, is a head of state endorsing a crypto scam. I’d be far more sympathetic if this was a discussion of something complex like Argentina’s economy. It’s not.
wezen 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

CraigJPerry 2y ago

>> how he's a genius in economy and he's helping Argentina's economy If he doesn’t succeed, it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue. With heavyweights such as George Selgin endorsing Milei’s performance to date, it’s going to require some very adept use of the reverse gear if things are subsequently judged not to have panned out as planned (which appears to be the typical outcome of other attempts to apply this school of thought throughout history). The world does seem very accepting of the current increased poverty levels in Argentina - “it’s always been this way”, “it was just under reported before” etc etc. Maybe. From a purely human point of view I hope they succeed. The timing could be excellent for them, a Return to prosperity given the current global situation wrt world order and demographics could conceivably put Argentina in a very advantageous position economically? I have grave reservations about the social science called economics though, well specifically “macro economics”. I worry that this experiment just leads to even more suffering.

tim333 2y ago
It's been a very messy experiment - he is limited politically in what he can actually do. As as result it's going to be hard to draw firm conclusions about Austrian economics.
pjc50 2y ago
> it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue It doesn't have to be based in reality. They can just roll out the same argument as "true communism has never been tried", but from the right. Ultimately Argentina never recovered from the collapse in value of being a food exporter. They're never going to recover until they can sort out the good old balance of payments problem. Doing so is going to be unavoidably uncomfortable as imports get relatively really expensive.
rsynnott 2y ago
> If he doesn’t succeed, it’s hard to see how the Austrian school of economics can continue. ... Not sure about that; it's not like it has had many success stories, and it somehow manages to chug along.

mrbombastic 2y ago

I know very little about Milei other than a few articles I have read but as someone who has been visiting Argentina on and off for the last 3 years, it does seem to me he has at least stabilized the currency much more than previous admins? I remember the bluerate for dollars being double the previous almost every time I returned and has now stabilized at around 1200 per dollar. I leave no comment on the rest of his policies but that rate of inflation seemed extremely unsustainable so this is no small feat. https://bluedollar.net/ https://bluedollar.net/ I will admit to being uninformed so if something else is going on here I would like to understand.

ajot 2y ago
Well, that's true, but I think it's based on the economic plan by Caputo. Argentina is very presidentialist and personalist, so everyone thinks this is Milei's doing, but most of the economic measures are done by people from other political party (PRO), with plans that were in the working for at least 2 years for it's candidates. They have nothing to do with what Milei campaigned with.
dysoco 2y ago
The price of the dollar doesn't mean too much, the real cost in USD of living is through the roof and the official inflation index is not reflecting that, what's worse, if your salary is in USD or was tied to USD now you earn even less because they are pegging it so it doesn't go up. Perhaps he did slow down the inflation a bit, sure, but it's easy to cut government spending when you are basically going into debt with your citizens, not paying government salaries, government contracts, etc. Pretty much everyone in the public scientific or health sector has seen their purchasing power slashed to half, and some of those haven't been paid for a couple of months either.
xinayder 2y ago
In 2015 Brazilians could do a lot in Argentina for as low as R$30. Nowadays, buying food costs almost R$120 ($20 in todays rate). Inflation can be stable, but cost of living has gone through the roof for almost a decade now, and Milei managed to speedrun it to a point that a lot of Argentinians are below the line of poverty.

koolba 2y ago

> 80% of the marketshare was concentrated in just 10 accounts, these accounts made transactions at 0-1 seconds after the president's tweet. There was some clear insider training here. Not ruling it out, but it’s just as possible that there are bots analyzing the X accounts of leaders and other notable people to jump in front of any such actions. Would simply be a matter of parsing for something that looks like a token address or links to the same. Buck shot some small amount that is sure to balloon when it actually hits. You’ll get burned by scams and account hijacks, but just one payoff would surely cover it all.

marcosdumay 2y ago
> but it’s just as possible that there are bots analyzing the X accounts of leaders and other notable people Nah. Leaders and other notable people don't go around talking about niche subjects for no reason at all. It's way more likely that whoever made the transaction caused Milei talking about the coin (by whatever means you want to imagine, usually notable people accept money to promote things, but as much as Milei sound stupid enough to think he can do that as president - what is already a crime - I still expect it to be worse). Also, there is the clear relationship between him and the coin creators.
- the_af 2y ago
  > usually notable people accept money to promote things Some businessmen and entrepreneurs (or shady kinds of guys calling themselves so, anyway) are already denouncing Milei (or his close representatives, like his sister Karina, nicknamed "the boss") demanded money in exchange for favors / photo ops / etc. These are guys who have photos with him, not random strangers. I think there's little doubt Milei is dirty, for all his talk denouncing the "political caste".

rsynnott 2y ago

Yeah, this pretty much shows him up, as either best-case, an idiot (duped by an obvious fraud) or worst-case, part of the fraud himself.

the_af 2y ago
Milei's hardcore followers are still reeling. Either way, they'll have a hard time justifying his actions. His reputation has taken a major hit.

rsynnott 2y ago

I mean, honestly, I think Milei has a bit more plausible deniability here; he _could_ merely be extremely gullible/incompetent. Trump deliberately fleeced his supporters; it's very hard to read his shitcoin any other way.

abc123abc123 2y ago

Nonsense. "A few hours ago I posted a tweet, as I have so many other times, supporting a supposed private enterprise with which I obviously have no connection whatsoever," Milei wrote. "I was not aware of the details of the project and after having become aware of it I decided not to continue spreading the word (that is why I deleted the tweet)." quote from Milei. The big problem is that people might (or might not) buy crypto based on tweets. No shadow falls over Milei here, one of the true geniuses of our life time! He has done so much for Argentina, freeing it from socialism, and I won't stop until the last remnants and traces of socialism has been eradicated from the argentine psyche. Then argentina will rise as a great financial power, built on solid capitalist and libertarian values. I think there will be a lot of brain drain from the socialist EU to Argentina in a few years time. The question is if Argentina would want to receive the millions of refugees from the EU?