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Finding Flow: Escaping digital distractions through deep work and slow living

226 points by articsputnik 2y ago

isodev 2y ago
Nice post. It really is a challenge to find time and mental space for one’s creative moments when everything around us is literally optimised to maximise engagement. Even places like Netflix/Prime/AppleTV where we’re supposed to go for recreation, would rather you quickly flick through several “shallow” productions than invest in something deep and meaningful.
- rednafi 2y ago
  Don’t pay for those—problem solved. No one is forcing us to do any of these things. Yelling at the cloud will rarely solve this. Blaming profit mega-corps for our woes is like trying to warm up the Earth to battle winter instead of just getting a thermostat or moving to a warmer climate.
  - memhole 2y ago
    I really appreciated this line on the Vaticans' thoughts on AI: The twentieth-century philosopher Nicholas Berdyaev observed that people often blame machines for personal and social problems; however, “this only humiliates man and does not correspond to his dignity,” for “it is unworthy to transfer responsibility from man to a machine.”
    - rednafi 2y ago
      Spot on. I say this every time someone complains that they can’t stop scrolling Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts. Just don’t install those apps. Browsing them from a mobile browser is awful without the apps, and if you can manage to live like that for a few days, you’ll stop doing it.
  - isodev 2y ago
    > Don’t pay for those—problem solved Ah yes, the dream where "vote with your wallet" was supposed to be a thing. The reality is though, these corporations are so big and have so much unbounded power in real life stuff (including legislation and policy) that my wallet is meaningless to their existnace. Also, not paying for them just means they will try to find me whever I'm (through ads, notifications, related products) and push some emotional buttons so I will join them, or at least sign up for something that gives them data points.
    - kasey_junk 2y ago
      The parent isn’t suggesting not to buy things to influence what the corporations are doing. They are suggesting that if you, yourself, are unhappy with a services impact on you, then the first and most obvious step is to stop paying for it. That’s a reasonably surefire way to remove that distraction. Conversely, if you don’t like the impact of something on your life, but cannot bring yourself to remove it, that is almost exactly the definition of addiction and you should probably go looking for help.
  - lithocarpus 2y ago
    While we do have agency to decide not to use addictive technology, it's not always that simple. For many of us, the addictive technology is tightly integrated with technology that we want or need to use. For example, I use local facebook groups for certain things, I use youtube to learn how to do things, I sometimes use instagram to communicate with certain people who prefer that. All of these have integrated those horrible short videos that can become very addictive - I've seen myself get stuck there, and many people I know who were never tech or phone addicts before this technology came around, including my mom. I could and maybe should radically change my life and just not use these things - facebook and instgram I could get by without, but youtube would be difficult - I am a musician and use it for finding music, and also for how to do or fix anything. I finally three months ago got a combination of firefox extensions and android apps to make it impossible for me to see these short videos, as well as all social media feeds etc, unless I specifically go change the settings to bring them back. And I've managed to avoid doing that. So in total over the last three months I've spent about 10 minutes watching the horrible short videos (when some slipped through the cracks) compared to before where I often found myself stuck there for an hour or two. I do still waste time on the internet often, but it's usually in a specific online community that's stuff I want to read and not random crap the algorithm gives me. I think it's like trying to quit a sugar addiction while having a donut strapped to your hand at all times. It really makes it easier if you can get rid of the donut. But when the donut is tied to your work or hobbies and there's no way to do the work or hobbies without the donut being there, it's hard. It can be done, and many people do it, but there are also many people who would choose to never see the donut if that option was easily available, but it's not.
    - wincy 2y ago
      My wife and I just parental lock each other’s phones. Sure we’ll unlock it if the other one asks for it but it does wonders. Super simple. Everything in this world is simpler if someone loves and cares about your wellbeing.
    - skydhash 2y ago
      If you can't get rid of it, add friction. I quit Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter gradually by removing the apps on my phone and using the browser on my laptop. Then I only use incognito mode to access them. Then I just get used to their absence. If I needed them for work. I'd use a separate device and a separate account. Another thing that help is bookmark and notes. Anything great I found on those platforms, I just store them somewhere so I can access them directly instead of browsing through the sludge.
- politelemon 2y ago
  Indeed. Even the deep and meaningful are part of the same goal, ecosystem retention. The aim is to keep serving slop and convincing you that you necessarily need entertainment of this specific type and no other. The only answer is to not engage. Entertainment can be of many kinds, some simple kinds too.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > Even places like Netflix/Prime/AppleTV where we’re supposed to go for recreation, would rather you quickly flick through several “shallow” productions than invest in something deep and meaningful. That’s not my experience at all. I rarely watch TV, so when I sit down I’m often looking for a good movie to watch. Much of the content these days is long, multi-episode shows that they want you to get invested in for 5-10 hours per season.
rednafi 2y ago
I don’t have any subscriptions except for rent, transportation, a cloud VM, and a domain for my blog, and that has made an incredible difference. This doesn’t mean I don’t watch movies or have fun—it’s just that watching movies requires jumping through a few hoops for me, so I plan carefully before settling in to watch something. Also, not owning a device to play games and waste hours was another conscious decision I made a while ago. Kicking the TV out of your bedroom is a neat trick that works for many. I still get distracted and doomscroll sometimes, but usually those are planned sessions. Not reading the news or caring about strangers’ opinions has done wonders for my psyche. After a few years, all of this comes naturally to me, but when I talk to people, the first thing they’re amazed by is how I manage to live like this.
- FollowingTheDao 2y ago
  Can you keep going? Because if you met me I am sure you would ask; "How do you live like that?"
  - rednafi 2y ago
    Depends on what you mean by “keep going.” Does a decade and a half mean I became successful? Then yeah. I come from a middle-class SEA family, where education and frugality are bolted into our DNA, even when we can afford nice things. So it’s a bit easier for me. However, I see my left-brained Western friends struggle with this quite a lot. Many self-diagnose as having ADHD, need therapy, and can’t seem to win the fight against all the nonsense large corporations throw at us. So I understand that it’s probably difficult.
    - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
      I mean can you keep going. Every one under heaven says that our Way is greatly like folly. But it is just because it is great, that it seems like folly. As for things that do not seem like folly — well, there can be no question about their smallness! Here are my three treasures. Guard and keep them! The first is pity; the second, frugality; the third, refusal to be 'foremost of all things under heaven'. For only he that pities is truly able to be brave; Only he that is frugal is able to be profuse. Only he that refuses to be foremost of all things Is truly able to become chief of all Ministers. At present your bravery is not based on pity, nor your profusion on frugality, nor your vanguard on your rear; and this is death. But pity cannot fight without conquering or guard without saving. Heaven arms with pity those whom it would not see destroyed.
FollowingTheDao 2y ago
If you have to do as much as he does to get in the flow then you have no idea what flow is nor how to enter it. Much of what is says is a great help to seeing flow however. To find flow all you have to do is look around you because you are already in it. Flow is always happening and it is not personal to any one being. To get in the flow of a river you just have to jump in it. The minute you try to make the "perfect" river to jump in, that is man made flow, and not natural flow. One can even be in the flow while using social media. All you have to do is let go. Anyone looking for flow I would advise they read Zhuang Zhou: http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/ http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/ "Horses can with their hoofs tread on the hoarfrost and snow, and with their hair withstand the wind and cold; they feed on the grass and drink water; they prance with their legs and leap:-- this is the true nature of horses. Though there were made for them grand towers and large dormitories, they would prefer not to use them. But when Po-lâo (arose and) said, 'I know well how to manage horses,' (men proceeded) to singe and mark them, to clip their hair, to pare their hoofs, to halter their heads, to bridle them and hobble them, and to confine them in stables and corrals. (When subjected to this treatment), two or three in every ten of them died. (Men proceeded further) to subject them to hunger and thirst, to gallop them and race them, and to make them go together in regular order. In front were the evils of the bit and ornamented breastbands, and behind were the terrors of the whip and switch. (When so treated), more than half of them died."
- itsalwaysgood 2y ago
  Maybe there are different ideas about flow. But to me, flow is about eliminating distractions, and being creative without requiring too much pondering. Our brains are always looking for distractions. Having your phone nearby, or working in an area where distractions are easily accessible prevents flow. Your brain is always looking to be distracted, it's akin to how you are tuned to pay more attention when you hear your name called. Even if you think to yourself: I'm not going to touch my phone while I work, it's always there calling for your brain's attention. So step 1 to flow is removing distractions. Going to a library helps because you're cut off from many distractions and your brain stops "listening" for a bit. And then, you must be able to create something from what you already know. Fluent writing, art, programming can then "flow" directly from you into the real world without requiring looking up info, or taking tutorials. Flow has little to do with the "true nature of things", imo.
crims0n 2y ago
Tangentially related, I finished “You Should Quit Reddit” by Jacob Desforges yesterday, at the recommendation of a fellow HN user. Definitely worth a read if you are leaning that way already and just need a few well-reasoned arguments to seal the deal.
wayoverthecloud 2y ago
On a side note, I find that this flow state has it's addiction of it's own. I find myself doing whatever I can to find time for it. I feel like the reason mathematicians, physicists and artists of the past produced such great results is, they found the flow state so addictive, more addictive than balancing your health or family life, and thus dedicated almost entirety of their lives on it. Just have to be careful on that one. After all, our purpose is (I think) is not just working.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  It is addictive, because it feels like living life at its fullest. It feels like life should always feel. > After all, our purpose is (I think) is not just working. Agreed, but I think that our purpose is also not just experiencing, nor is it just eating, pairing up, multiplying, and dying (like all life on Earth does, +/- the pairing up stuff). I also feel that "working" != "working", specifically working for money usually stands in opposition to the kind of work you'd find fulfilling and that benefits from the state of flow.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    We associate things and people with the experiences where we encountered them. Once I made the same observation that GP did, I reflected back on conflicts over code. The most vitriolic arguments I’ve gotten into about design decisions at work have all, almost to a man, boiled down to the person who authored it having done so in flow state and how fucking dare you question the beauty of the output of that effort. They make it personal because the experience was deeply personal. Flow state cannot make nuanced ethical decisions. It’s right in the characteristics. And both DevEx and maintainability come down to thinking about the people who have to deal with your code for the next four years. The only way I’ve been able to avoid this trap myself is to spent more effort on refactoring, taking notes, taking breaks, and saving up the Deep Work for special occasions where I have choreographed much of it ahead of time. So I know exactly what to do and why. Exploratory dev in flow state leads to all of these sins. Because you get the bear to dance and then you stop.
- sepositus 2y ago
atoav 2y ago
Like with food one aspect to realize is that you can nudge yourself one way or another by making certain decisions in front. It is harder to eat unhealthy if you don't buy groceries that allow you to make unhealthy food. And you buy unhealthy food when you enter the grocery store hungry. Similar frontloaded decisions affect digital consumption. This is mostly about how we design the places where we consume, how we set up our devices etc. A good way to start is to switch off notifications for certain classes of apps and setup an automatic do-not-disturb based on your schedule (e.g. between 22:00 and 10:00). Don't put distracting apps on Desktop and home screens, those should only be opened by you if you actively decided to do so — adding multiple steps to doing so is a feature, not a bug. If you really wanna go hardcore you could DNS block certain apps during certain times, forcing you to read a book instead. In the end it is just about creating an environment for yourself where the things you want to do are easier choices than the things you want to avoid.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
I agree with everything in this post, and have had similar reactions to changing environment. BUT. I think it is easy to lose sight that these practices only work for a small segment of society that have high paying jobs and a lot of freedom. And software engineers make up the bulk of them. I really do dig the Software Engineer = Artist Comparison. SE do 'create', use creativity to solve problems. And also 'creative' like a writer or poet, painter. And Flow is important. But also, there is a reason a lot of artists don't make a lot of money. And, sadly, the 'creative drive' to do Open Source projects, also does not pay. So, follow your dream to hang out in coffee shops writing code, but know that is a luxury that can end any minute, like with the first major illness.
andai 2y ago
I found it difficult to work when connected to the internet. (Unmedicated ADHD.) So I'd turn it off before sleep (as part of basic "hygiene"), and keep it off (router and phone) for at least the first hour the next day. I'd wake up and begin working immediately. Usually I'd get so much done this way, that I'd choose to stay offline for a few more hours voluntarily. This routine I developed to deal with a disability is now being promoted by YouTube influencers as a productivity secret used by billionaires, which I find endlessly amusing!
- hartator 2y ago
  > So I'd turn it off before sleep (as part of basic "hygiene"), and keep it off (router and phone) for at least the first hour the next day. How do you do this technically? Shutting down phone and router (so many things complain when no WiFi, you need a phd to disable iPhones), alarms, and still a way to be reached in case of emergency?
  - 0xCMP 2y ago
    I think while things may complain simply pulling the power to the ISP modem/router and doing a full shutdown of any phone would replicate what they are doing. If you wanted you could have a separate AP from the router that could stay running even when the router loses internet to keep the local network running, but if we're being honest... does it really matter? Most devices might complain, but most will simply stop working silently and then reconnect when they have a chance. Some might need to be power cycled because they gave up trying to connect (I had a smart garage door that had bad connectivity and would sometimes do a version of this).
  - andai 2y ago
    I unplugged the router from the wall, and turned off my phone. I also moved it to another room, as it's been demonstrated to make you stupider even when it's switched off. (I think it has to do with the subconscious expectation of constant interruptions associated with the physical object.) The mere presence of a smartphone reduces basal attentional performance https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 The only thing I missed was documentation, so I downloaded offline docs. Then occasionally I missed Google. So I just kept a list of stuff to Google an hour or two later when I came back online. I made sure my work was full of variety so if I got completely stuck on one task (rare), I could just switch gears.
Temporary_31337 2y ago
I recently got back into coding (thank you LLMs!) and I find this is much more isolating lifestyle. If I didn’t find the problem solving so rewarding and money was not a consideration I would actually prefer a more social job with MORE distractions even though I consider myself introvert. A social job forces interactions on you. You may not become a better coder but you will become a better communicator and arguably a person that’s easier to live or work with. So isolating and living distraction free is just a spectrum that you don’t want to overdo in either direction.
asdf6969 2y ago
Why don’t posts like this ever explain what the end goal is? The biggest problem in my life is that all this work and productivity feels meaningless. Everyone is always writing as if these goals are common knowledge but I don’t even know why I work anymore other than I can’t retire yet.
- neogodless 2y ago
  > This is also what I find most rewarding and experienced as an author: writing in the flow state The idea is that "finding flow" or spending your limited and valuable time in the flow state is an ideal way to live your life. It's enjoyable. By definition, it's not an "end goal", but a life goal.
  - asdf6969 2y ago
    I want to know where their goals and favourite source of flow come from. Do any of these bloggers know what they’re writing or does it just sound good to other people who are also aimlessly playing on the computer? I want more depth. It’s a lot more enjoyable and “flow”y to get stoned and watch YouTube all day everyday but I know that’s not what he’s talking about. I want to know what’s so great about the work and personal lives of these productivity guru guys. Seems like they all just make another data analytics tool, AI toys, or write blogs for each other.
    - neogodless 2y ago
      I think you're mixing up concepts. Sure there are people that make a living from marketing self-help. Some of them might even really enjoy it. But flow as defined in the book "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience" by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi[0], is "a state of concentration or complete absorption with the activity at hand and the situation." In the book, it gives a few guide rails. Just enjoying something is different from it being in the sweet spot of challenging you, triggering growth, enabling you to learn something new or achieve something. Of course that could come from selling your book or making a YouTube video, but instead of focusing on other people, and their motivations, and what they get out of whatever they're doing, the whole point is to figure out where you are really in a flow state that you personally find fulfilling, and would want to repeat. If you can't find that, then forget about, ignore all the information out there, and find a different life goal to pursue. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/66354.Flow https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/66354.Flow
solarized 2y ago
> Not reading the news I do this too. I’ve even managed to go years without opening the news. What I can’t deny, the news still sneaks in through WhatsApp/Telegram groups. > or caring about strangers opinions has done wonders for my psyche. The final bos !. Jumping into these kinds of conversations just to prove you're smart—or look smart—is the ultimate time stealer. The dopamine hits hard. Yes, i proved i'm smarter than my average friends. friends also happy to get good insights from me. The ironic part? times fades away while the quality of my work takes a nosedive. Dumbest tradeoff i've learned the hard way.
- kamaal 2y ago
  >>I’ve even managed to go years without opening the news. If only life was that simple. If you are not Knuth or Einstein, you better be open to the world. Or you won't win at life. Focus is for people are absolutely too darn good at what they do, and get rewarded for it. For everybody else, you have to be open enough to be informed about newer and rewarding things.
  - solarized 2y ago
    kamaal, of course i still read it. xD just x or hackerNews. its enough.
rexpop 2y ago
> Maybe that’s the secret of a Deep Life? Not reading news, Oh, OK, let's just uncritically hand our democracy over to whomever, then. Who ever said it required an informed populace, anyway?

226 points by articsputnik 2y ago

Nice post. It really is a challenge to find time and mental space for one’s creative moments when everything around us is literally optimised to maximise engagement. Even places like Netflix/Prime/AppleTV where we’re supposed to go for recreation, would rather you quickly flick through several “shallow” productions than invest in something deep and meaningful.

rednafi 2y ago
Don’t pay for those—problem solved. No one is forcing us to do any of these things. Yelling at the cloud will rarely solve this. Blaming profit mega-corps for our woes is like trying to warm up the Earth to battle winter instead of just getting a thermostat or moving to a warmer climate.
- memhole 2y ago
  I really appreciated this line on the Vaticans' thoughts on AI: The twentieth-century philosopher Nicholas Berdyaev observed that people often blame machines for personal and social problems; however, “this only humiliates man and does not correspond to his dignity,” for “it is unworthy to transfer responsibility from man to a machine.”
  - rednafi 2y ago
    Spot on. I say this every time someone complains that they can’t stop scrolling Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts. Just don’t install those apps. Browsing them from a mobile browser is awful without the apps, and if you can manage to live like that for a few days, you’ll stop doing it.
- isodev 2y ago
  > Don’t pay for those—problem solved Ah yes, the dream where "vote with your wallet" was supposed to be a thing. The reality is though, these corporations are so big and have so much unbounded power in real life stuff (including legislation and policy) that my wallet is meaningless to their existnace. Also, not paying for them just means they will try to find me whever I'm (through ads, notifications, related products) and push some emotional buttons so I will join them, or at least sign up for something that gives them data points.
  - kasey_junk 2y ago
    The parent isn’t suggesting not to buy things to influence what the corporations are doing. They are suggesting that if you, yourself, are unhappy with a services impact on you, then the first and most obvious step is to stop paying for it. That’s a reasonably surefire way to remove that distraction. Conversely, if you don’t like the impact of something on your life, but cannot bring yourself to remove it, that is almost exactly the definition of addiction and you should probably go looking for help.
- lithocarpus 2y ago
  While we do have agency to decide not to use addictive technology, it's not always that simple. For many of us, the addictive technology is tightly integrated with technology that we want or need to use. For example, I use local facebook groups for certain things, I use youtube to learn how to do things, I sometimes use instagram to communicate with certain people who prefer that. All of these have integrated those horrible short videos that can become very addictive - I've seen myself get stuck there, and many people I know who were never tech or phone addicts before this technology came around, including my mom. I could and maybe should radically change my life and just not use these things - facebook and instgram I could get by without, but youtube would be difficult - I am a musician and use it for finding music, and also for how to do or fix anything. I finally three months ago got a combination of firefox extensions and android apps to make it impossible for me to see these short videos, as well as all social media feeds etc, unless I specifically go change the settings to bring them back. And I've managed to avoid doing that. So in total over the last three months I've spent about 10 minutes watching the horrible short videos (when some slipped through the cracks) compared to before where I often found myself stuck there for an hour or two. I do still waste time on the internet often, but it's usually in a specific online community that's stuff I want to read and not random crap the algorithm gives me. I think it's like trying to quit a sugar addiction while having a donut strapped to your hand at all times. It really makes it easier if you can get rid of the donut. But when the donut is tied to your work or hobbies and there's no way to do the work or hobbies without the donut being there, it's hard. It can be done, and many people do it, but there are also many people who would choose to never see the donut if that option was easily available, but it's not.
  - wincy 2y ago
    My wife and I just parental lock each other’s phones. Sure we’ll unlock it if the other one asks for it but it does wonders. Super simple. Everything in this world is simpler if someone loves and cares about your wellbeing.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    If you can't get rid of it, add friction. I quit Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter gradually by removing the apps on my phone and using the browser on my laptop. Then I only use incognito mode to access them. Then I just get used to their absence. If I needed them for work. I'd use a separate device and a separate account. Another thing that help is bookmark and notes. Anything great I found on those platforms, I just store them somewhere so I can access them directly instead of browsing through the sludge.
politelemon 2y ago
Indeed. Even the deep and meaningful are part of the same goal, ecosystem retention. The aim is to keep serving slop and convincing you that you necessarily need entertainment of this specific type and no other. The only answer is to not engage. Entertainment can be of many kinds, some simple kinds too.
Aurornis 2y ago
> Even places like Netflix/Prime/AppleTV where we’re supposed to go for recreation, would rather you quickly flick through several “shallow” productions than invest in something deep and meaningful. That’s not my experience at all. I rarely watch TV, so when I sit down I’m often looking for a good movie to watch. Much of the content these days is long, multi-episode shows that they want you to get invested in for 5-10 hours per season.

rednafi 2y ago

I don’t have any subscriptions except for rent, transportation, a cloud VM, and a domain for my blog, and that has made an incredible difference. This doesn’t mean I don’t watch movies or have fun—it’s just that watching movies requires jumping through a few hoops for me, so I plan carefully before settling in to watch something. Also, not owning a device to play games and waste hours was another conscious decision I made a while ago. Kicking the TV out of your bedroom is a neat trick that works for many. I still get distracted and doomscroll sometimes, but usually those are planned sessions. Not reading the news or caring about strangers’ opinions has done wonders for my psyche. After a few years, all of this comes naturally to me, but when I talk to people, the first thing they’re amazed by is how I manage to live like this.

FollowingTheDao 2y ago
Can you keep going? Because if you met me I am sure you would ask; "How do you live like that?"
- rednafi 2y ago
  Depends on what you mean by “keep going.” Does a decade and a half mean I became successful? Then yeah. I come from a middle-class SEA family, where education and frugality are bolted into our DNA, even when we can afford nice things. So it’s a bit easier for me. However, I see my left-brained Western friends struggle with this quite a lot. Many self-diagnose as having ADHD, need therapy, and can’t seem to win the fight against all the nonsense large corporations throw at us. So I understand that it’s probably difficult.
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    I mean can you keep going. Every one under heaven says that our Way is greatly like folly. But it is just because it is great, that it seems like folly. As for things that do not seem like folly — well, there can be no question about their smallness! Here are my three treasures. Guard and keep them! The first is pity; the second, frugality; the third, refusal to be 'foremost of all things under heaven'. For only he that pities is truly able to be brave; Only he that is frugal is able to be profuse. Only he that refuses to be foremost of all things Is truly able to become chief of all Ministers. At present your bravery is not based on pity, nor your profusion on frugality, nor your vanguard on your rear; and this is death. But pity cannot fight without conquering or guard without saving. Heaven arms with pity those whom it would not see destroyed.

FollowingTheDao 2y ago

If you have to do as much as he does to get in the flow then you have no idea what flow is nor how to enter it. Much of what is says is a great help to seeing flow however. To find flow all you have to do is look around you because you are already in it. Flow is always happening and it is not personal to any one being. To get in the flow of a river you just have to jump in it. The minute you try to make the "perfect" river to jump in, that is man made flow, and not natural flow. One can even be in the flow while using social media. All you have to do is let go. Anyone looking for flow I would advise they read Zhuang Zhou: http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/ http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/ "Horses can with their hoofs tread on the hoarfrost and snow, and with their hair withstand the wind and cold; they feed on the grass and drink water; they prance with their legs and leap:-- this is the true nature of horses. Though there were made for them grand towers and large dormitories, they would prefer not to use them. But when Po-lâo (arose and) said, 'I know well how to manage horses,' (men proceeded) to singe and mark them, to clip their hair, to pare their hoofs, to halter their heads, to bridle them and hobble them, and to confine them in stables and corrals. (When subjected to this treatment), two or three in every ten of them died. (Men proceeded further) to subject them to hunger and thirst, to gallop them and race them, and to make them go together in regular order. In front were the evils of the bit and ornamented breastbands, and behind were the terrors of the whip and switch. (When so treated), more than half of them died."

itsalwaysgood 2y ago
Maybe there are different ideas about flow. But to me, flow is about eliminating distractions, and being creative without requiring too much pondering. Our brains are always looking for distractions. Having your phone nearby, or working in an area where distractions are easily accessible prevents flow. Your brain is always looking to be distracted, it's akin to how you are tuned to pay more attention when you hear your name called. Even if you think to yourself: I'm not going to touch my phone while I work, it's always there calling for your brain's attention. So step 1 to flow is removing distractions. Going to a library helps because you're cut off from many distractions and your brain stops "listening" for a bit. And then, you must be able to create something from what you already know. Fluent writing, art, programming can then "flow" directly from you into the real world without requiring looking up info, or taking tutorials. Flow has little to do with the "true nature of things", imo.

crims0n 2y ago

Tangentially related, I finished “You Should Quit Reddit” by Jacob Desforges yesterday, at the recommendation of a fellow HN user. Definitely worth a read if you are leaning that way already and just need a few well-reasoned arguments to seal the deal.

wayoverthecloud 2y ago

On a side note, I find that this flow state has it's addiction of it's own. I find myself doing whatever I can to find time for it. I feel like the reason mathematicians, physicists and artists of the past produced such great results is, they found the flow state so addictive, more addictive than balancing your health or family life, and thus dedicated almost entirety of their lives on it. Just have to be careful on that one. After all, our purpose is (I think) is not just working.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
It is addictive, because it feels like living life at its fullest. It feels like life should always feel. > After all, our purpose is (I think) is not just working. Agreed, but I think that our purpose is also not just experiencing, nor is it just eating, pairing up, multiplying, and dying (like all life on Earth does, +/- the pairing up stuff). I also feel that "working" != "working", specifically working for money usually stands in opposition to the kind of work you'd find fulfilling and that benefits from the state of flow.
- hinkley 2y ago
  We associate things and people with the experiences where we encountered them. Once I made the same observation that GP did, I reflected back on conflicts over code. The most vitriolic arguments I’ve gotten into about design decisions at work have all, almost to a man, boiled down to the person who authored it having done so in flow state and how fucking dare you question the beauty of the output of that effort. They make it personal because the experience was deeply personal. Flow state cannot make nuanced ethical decisions. It’s right in the characteristics. And both DevEx and maintainability come down to thinking about the people who have to deal with your code for the next four years. The only way I’ve been able to avoid this trap myself is to spent more effort on refactoring, taking notes, taking breaks, and saving up the Deep Work for special occasions where I have choreographed much of it ahead of time. So I know exactly what to do and why. Exploratory dev in flow state leads to all of these sins. Because you get the bear to dance and then you stop.
sepositus 2y ago

atoav 2y ago

Like with food one aspect to realize is that you can nudge yourself one way or another by making certain decisions in front. It is harder to eat unhealthy if you don't buy groceries that allow you to make unhealthy food. And you buy unhealthy food when you enter the grocery store hungry. Similar frontloaded decisions affect digital consumption. This is mostly about how we design the places where we consume, how we set up our devices etc. A good way to start is to switch off notifications for certain classes of apps and setup an automatic do-not-disturb based on your schedule (e.g. between 22:00 and 10:00). Don't put distracting apps on Desktop and home screens, those should only be opened by you if you actively decided to do so — adding multiple steps to doing so is a feature, not a bug. If you really wanna go hardcore you could DNS block certain apps during certain times, forcing you to read a book instead. In the end it is just about creating an environment for yourself where the things you want to do are easier choices than the things you want to avoid.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

I agree with everything in this post, and have had similar reactions to changing environment. BUT. I think it is easy to lose sight that these practices only work for a small segment of society that have high paying jobs and a lot of freedom. And software engineers make up the bulk of them. I really do dig the Software Engineer = Artist Comparison. SE do 'create', use creativity to solve problems. And also 'creative' like a writer or poet, painter. And Flow is important. But also, there is a reason a lot of artists don't make a lot of money. And, sadly, the 'creative drive' to do Open Source projects, also does not pay. So, follow your dream to hang out in coffee shops writing code, but know that is a luxury that can end any minute, like with the first major illness.

andai 2y ago

I found it difficult to work when connected to the internet. (Unmedicated ADHD.) So I'd turn it off before sleep (as part of basic "hygiene"), and keep it off (router and phone) for at least the first hour the next day. I'd wake up and begin working immediately. Usually I'd get so much done this way, that I'd choose to stay offline for a few more hours voluntarily. This routine I developed to deal with a disability is now being promoted by YouTube influencers as a productivity secret used by billionaires, which I find endlessly amusing!

hartator 2y ago
> So I'd turn it off before sleep (as part of basic "hygiene"), and keep it off (router and phone) for at least the first hour the next day. How do you do this technically? Shutting down phone and router (so many things complain when no WiFi, you need a phd to disable iPhones), alarms, and still a way to be reached in case of emergency?
- 0xCMP 2y ago
  I think while things may complain simply pulling the power to the ISP modem/router and doing a full shutdown of any phone would replicate what they are doing. If you wanted you could have a separate AP from the router that could stay running even when the router loses internet to keep the local network running, but if we're being honest... does it really matter? Most devices might complain, but most will simply stop working silently and then reconnect when they have a chance. Some might need to be power cycled because they gave up trying to connect (I had a smart garage door that had bad connectivity and would sometimes do a version of this).
- andai 2y ago
  I unplugged the router from the wall, and turned off my phone. I also moved it to another room, as it's been demonstrated to make you stupider even when it's switched off. (I think it has to do with the subconscious expectation of constant interruptions associated with the physical object.) The mere presence of a smartphone reduces basal attentional performance https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 The only thing I missed was documentation, so I downloaded offline docs. Then occasionally I missed Google. So I just kept a list of stuff to Google an hour or two later when I came back online. I made sure my work was full of variety so if I got completely stuck on one task (rare), I could just switch gears.

Temporary_31337 2y ago

I recently got back into coding (thank you LLMs!) and I find this is much more isolating lifestyle. If I didn’t find the problem solving so rewarding and money was not a consideration I would actually prefer a more social job with MORE distractions even though I consider myself introvert. A social job forces interactions on you. You may not become a better coder but you will become a better communicator and arguably a person that’s easier to live or work with. So isolating and living distraction free is just a spectrum that you don’t want to overdo in either direction.

asdf6969 2y ago

Why don’t posts like this ever explain what the end goal is? The biggest problem in my life is that all this work and productivity feels meaningless. Everyone is always writing as if these goals are common knowledge but I don’t even know why I work anymore other than I can’t retire yet.

neogodless 2y ago
> This is also what I find most rewarding and experienced as an author: writing in the flow state The idea is that "finding flow" or spending your limited and valuable time in the flow state is an ideal way to live your life. It's enjoyable. By definition, it's not an "end goal", but a life goal.
- asdf6969 2y ago
  I want to know where their goals and favourite source of flow come from. Do any of these bloggers know what they’re writing or does it just sound good to other people who are also aimlessly playing on the computer? I want more depth. It’s a lot more enjoyable and “flow”y to get stoned and watch YouTube all day everyday but I know that’s not what he’s talking about. I want to know what’s so great about the work and personal lives of these productivity guru guys. Seems like they all just make another data analytics tool, AI toys, or write blogs for each other.
  - neogodless 2y ago
    I think you're mixing up concepts. Sure there are people that make a living from marketing self-help. Some of them might even really enjoy it. But flow as defined in the book "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience" by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi[0], is "a state of concentration or complete absorption with the activity at hand and the situation." In the book, it gives a few guide rails. Just enjoying something is different from it being in the sweet spot of challenging you, triggering growth, enabling you to learn something new or achieve something. Of course that could come from selling your book or making a YouTube video, but instead of focusing on other people, and their motivations, and what they get out of whatever they're doing, the whole point is to figure out where you are really in a flow state that you personally find fulfilling, and would want to repeat. If you can't find that, then forget about, ignore all the information out there, and find a different life goal to pursue. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/66354.Flow https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/66354.Flow

solarized 2y ago

> Not reading the news I do this too. I’ve even managed to go years without opening the news. What I can’t deny, the news still sneaks in through WhatsApp/Telegram groups. > or caring about strangers opinions has done wonders for my psyche. The final bos !. Jumping into these kinds of conversations just to prove you're smart—or look smart—is the ultimate time stealer. The dopamine hits hard. Yes, i proved i'm smarter than my average friends. friends also happy to get good insights from me. The ironic part? times fades away while the quality of my work takes a nosedive. Dumbest tradeoff i've learned the hard way.

kamaal 2y ago
>>I’ve even managed to go years without opening the news. If only life was that simple. If you are not Knuth or Einstein, you better be open to the world. Or you won't win at life. Focus is for people are absolutely too darn good at what they do, and get rewarded for it. For everybody else, you have to be open enough to be informed about newer and rewarding things.
- solarized 2y ago
  kamaal, of course i still read it. xD just x or hackerNews. its enough.

rexpop 2y ago

> Maybe that’s the secret of a Deep Life? Not reading news, Oh, OK, let's just uncritically hand our democracy over to whomever, then. Who ever said it required an informed populace, anyway?