5 ms·

PAROL6: 3D-printed desktop robotic arm

179 points by bo0tzz 2y ago

Onavo 2y ago
Is this a cobot?
- GistNoesis 2y ago
  Probably not. In https://source-robotics.github.io/PAROL-docs/page6/ https://source-robotics.github.io/PAROL-docs/page6/ it tells you it can pinch you. It's probably relatively safe for humans though (be careful with your pets), the robot is 5kg, it move quite slowly and motors are nema 17 (the same than in a 3d printer) with a max gearbox ratio x20. In case of problem press the e-stop button if you have chosen to have one. As far as I understand there are no encoder on the joints so it can't be back-driven, it's not a compliant robot.
linsomniac 2y ago
>Source Robotics shall not assume liability for [...] the improper use of the Parol6 robot Ok, now I REALLY want to build one...
linsomniac 2y ago
TL;DR: Cost looks to be about $2K, they sell the 3D printed parts for 200Euro, the control board for 220Euro, and a kit for 2,000Euro. Looks very cool, but it's out of my "build it and see what I can do with it" budget, I'd need a real reason to build it.
- GistNoesis 2y ago
  The control board is listed for me at price €262,80 EUR (with tax included). The control board version with the 6 additional 10€ stepper driver (with the link they provide in their BOM, is listed at €456,00 EUR, (at this price I can plug stepper driver all day long). Rant mode activated : Those prices are just excessive. Before 2020 we could buy some 5-axis 8-bits RAMPS 1.4 board with stepper for less than 50€. Then there was some transition to use some more powerful 32-bits microcontroller (which are cheaper on the BOM), but no standard has emerged, 32-bits chips were impacted by the shortage, so everyone and their dog are creating their own 3d printer control boards, and selling them for more than €100, and they are less customizable, harder to upload. (The best replacement for RAMPS 1.4, is probably BTT SKR V1.4, which sells for €43 with silent drivers) (but you are on your own for the non-standard software and development environment). Those control boards are just connector boards, they are mainly used to replace some wires, it's just to connect the microcontroller to the stepper driver. You can have your own pcb connector board made for less than €10 for 10. You just have to solder the header yourself.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Is your rant more towards RAMPS, or is it actually has more to do with lack of a 32-bit Mega/Due successor? Because RAMPS is still around and there isn't much wrong about it, it just works okay.
    - GistNoesis 2y ago
      Kind of towards the 3d printing industry and greed in general. The RAMPS guys didn't offer a successor when they were in the perfect position to do so after having built a large diy community of RepRappers and opensource 3d-printing. The 32-bits transition is better and cheaper on the BOM compared to the Mega2560. The speed boost is really useful when you want to add more advance control algorithm for your motors for robotics application. Creality CR-10 quality was just better and it was the beginning of the transition away from open standards. A slow but sure erosion of what was once a great flexible community solution, where what was built by open-source is being privatized. Chinese clones replicated CR-10 model each with their own control board. But when your machine is repairable, you can't sell it for a lot more than the sum of individual parts, so the whole economics of how much a control board that run marlin is got delirious. This trend continue today with the emergence of companies like BambuLabs. The whole arc makes me sad, as 3d-printing is the entry point for many makers around the world and these initial core values of really owning your hardware stack are important. For building robots, building your own 3d printer was a great introduction. Being able to replace a fried motor driver because your robot took an unexpected fall for cheap is kind of essential. If every time a part break you need to pay more than €100 and more than to 2 weeks of delivery time, you can't test and push your machines. Whereas if you are using standard parts, you'll have a stock of them, and it will be €5 and 5 minutes and you are good to go, and the mistake is forgotten, and the lesson learned.
      - aforwardslash 2y ago
        A BTT octopus w/ replaceable 6xTMC2209 and plenty of I/O (including CAN support) costs <70 eur; this is light-years from a RAMPS, and still very cheap. the prices of the controller boards of this robotic arm is just... ridiculous. A money grab.
memhole 2y ago
Cheaper alternative: https://github.com/huggingface/lerobot https://github.com/huggingface/lerobot Some local people made this with it: https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3BygZpa6Eo https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3BygZpa6Eo
iseanstevens 2y ago
(Oops saw other comment linked, but I’ll leave this comment in case summary is helpful) Check out the SO100 arm, being supported by Huggingface and others. Only 4 axis, but cheap AF (<$250/arm) and using ML to make it more capable than 4 axis would seem. Also using identical arms for mirror teleportation/training. https://github.com/TheRobotStudio/SO-ARM100 https://github.com/TheRobotStudio/SO-ARM100
- nullc 2y ago
  4 is still though fundamentally limited: you need a minimum six DOF to position all three translational and rotational freedoms. The human arm has 7, and I think a case can be made the smart software would reduce the problems from having only exactly as many as required. ... but not eliminate: the extra degree of freedom lets you "get out of your own way" when moving objects that are not zero size trough multiple positions :) Perhaps 4 is enough for any specific application, but then again perhaps 3 is or 2. :P I've never programmed a robot arm, but I've spent a fair amount of time using a seven axis faro arm (a coordinate measuring device, sort of the opposite of a robot arm) and it certainly takes some practice to avoid "cant move there from here without reorienting everything", it's easy to take for granted what our brains do automatically for us. :)
  - IanCal 2y ago
    Humans have 7 dof but we can't get into all positions, as I've found clearly today trying to reach things for my kids in the back seat of the car.
    - IshKebab 2y ago
      That's because of joint range of motion limitations. It's different to DoF limitations which is what was being discussed.
      - IanCal 2y ago
        The point is that you can achieve a lot without being able to access every position and the human arm having a lot of degrees of freedom doesn't necessarily mean it's more capable than a different arm with fewer.
samch 2y ago
This is my favorite DIY robot arm at the moment. The parts seem to be fairly high quality, and it has a leader / follower arm option if you build a second one: https://github.com/AlexanderKoch-Koch/low_cost_robot/tree/main https://github.com/AlexanderKoch-Koch/low_cost_robot/tree/ma...
- numba888 2y ago
  When looking at low cost arms I check how it connects to the mount. If it hangs on just a servo it will be very wobbly. Most mentioned in this thread are. For this price or bit more you can get a way better arm on ebay with big ball bearing on the base for stability. I got a kit for $60 or $80 recently. No servos, full metal. It's easy to add servos and put together, for now I have other arms assembled ;) No steppers because I want them to be cheap and imprecise for ML project.
  - numba888 2y ago
    Just got for $40 on amazon cheap arm with servos and bearing at the base. "Robot Arm Kits for Arduino Coding". Not that I need it, just like putting things together. Arduino not included, but I have it already. Let's see if I can use Raspberry Pico instead.
BubbleRings 2y ago
If you ever wonder what you could actually do with a nice arm… well, I had one for a while, and the following is the best I could come up with at the time. A fun little video: https://youtu.be/-UzOfwHeV5k?si=0eK8H3_3aO3yzs44 https://youtu.be/-UzOfwHeV5k?si=0eK8H3_3aO3yzs44
- leetrout 2y ago
  Since you knew the reference plane of the table did picking up the dominos only need to calculate the orientation?
  - BubbleRings 2y ago
    Heh, the video is a little deceptive. The arm had no vision capability, so I faked it. The dominos only look like they are sitting in a random pile. Actually, they are sitting in very precise positions, so the arm would find them correctly when it ran a program I built by pointing the arm at the locations using the joystick.
kennywinker 2y ago
How does this cost around 1000euros to diy? It looks like some steppers and some printed parts and a control board… the kind of parts you find on a 3d printer you can buy for $200 - what am i missing? Genuine question!
- numba888 2y ago
  >what am i missing? 1000e kit does not include steppers and board..
- IshKebab 2y ago
  This is clearly a huge step up above 3D printers.
  - kennywinker 2y ago
    In what way? It’s using nema 17 motors, the same as most printers. They sell completed units for ~3000eur and that totally makes sense - but if I want to do the labour and parts sourcing myself what is driving the estimated cost so high? $250 for the custom controller board, $20*6 for the motors, $60 of plastic. That’s well under $500
brcmthrowaway 2y ago
I want to see this but for soft robotics
amelius 2y ago
The problem with these robots is the accuracy. You can't really use them for precision work, like populating a board with SMD components. This robot also seems quite slow.
debeloo 2y ago
I'd love to see pictures and video on the landing page.

179 points by bo0tzz 2y ago

Onavo 2y ago

Is this a cobot?

GistNoesis 2y ago
Probably not. In https://source-robotics.github.io/PAROL-docs/page6/ https://source-robotics.github.io/PAROL-docs/page6/ it tells you it can pinch you. It's probably relatively safe for humans though (be careful with your pets), the robot is 5kg, it move quite slowly and motors are nema 17 (the same than in a 3d printer) with a max gearbox ratio x20. In case of problem press the e-stop button if you have chosen to have one. As far as I understand there are no encoder on the joints so it can't be back-driven, it's not a compliant robot.

linsomniac 2y ago

>Source Robotics shall not assume liability for [...] the improper use of the Parol6 robot Ok, now I REALLY want to build one...

linsomniac 2y ago

TL;DR: Cost looks to be about $2K, they sell the 3D printed parts for 200Euro, the control board for 220Euro, and a kit for 2,000Euro. Looks very cool, but it's out of my "build it and see what I can do with it" budget, I'd need a real reason to build it.

GistNoesis 2y ago
The control board is listed for me at price €262,80 EUR (with tax included). The control board version with the 6 additional 10€ stepper driver (with the link they provide in their BOM, is listed at €456,00 EUR, (at this price I can plug stepper driver all day long). Rant mode activated : Those prices are just excessive. Before 2020 we could buy some 5-axis 8-bits RAMPS 1.4 board with stepper for less than 50€. Then there was some transition to use some more powerful 32-bits microcontroller (which are cheaper on the BOM), but no standard has emerged, 32-bits chips were impacted by the shortage, so everyone and their dog are creating their own 3d printer control boards, and selling them for more than €100, and they are less customizable, harder to upload. (The best replacement for RAMPS 1.4, is probably BTT SKR V1.4, which sells for €43 with silent drivers) (but you are on your own for the non-standard software and development environment). Those control boards are just connector boards, they are mainly used to replace some wires, it's just to connect the microcontroller to the stepper driver. You can have your own pcb connector board made for less than €10 for 10. You just have to solder the header yourself.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Is your rant more towards RAMPS, or is it actually has more to do with lack of a 32-bit Mega/Due successor? Because RAMPS is still around and there isn't much wrong about it, it just works okay.
  - GistNoesis 2y ago
    Kind of towards the 3d printing industry and greed in general. The RAMPS guys didn't offer a successor when they were in the perfect position to do so after having built a large diy community of RepRappers and opensource 3d-printing. The 32-bits transition is better and cheaper on the BOM compared to the Mega2560. The speed boost is really useful when you want to add more advance control algorithm for your motors for robotics application. Creality CR-10 quality was just better and it was the beginning of the transition away from open standards. A slow but sure erosion of what was once a great flexible community solution, where what was built by open-source is being privatized. Chinese clones replicated CR-10 model each with their own control board. But when your machine is repairable, you can't sell it for a lot more than the sum of individual parts, so the whole economics of how much a control board that run marlin is got delirious. This trend continue today with the emergence of companies like BambuLabs. The whole arc makes me sad, as 3d-printing is the entry point for many makers around the world and these initial core values of really owning your hardware stack are important. For building robots, building your own 3d printer was a great introduction. Being able to replace a fried motor driver because your robot took an unexpected fall for cheap is kind of essential. If every time a part break you need to pay more than €100 and more than to 2 weeks of delivery time, you can't test and push your machines. Whereas if you are using standard parts, you'll have a stock of them, and it will be €5 and 5 minutes and you are good to go, and the mistake is forgotten, and the lesson learned.
    - aforwardslash 2y ago
      A BTT octopus w/ replaceable 6xTMC2209 and plenty of I/O (including CAN support) costs <70 eur; this is light-years from a RAMPS, and still very cheap. the prices of the controller boards of this robotic arm is just... ridiculous. A money grab.

memhole 2y ago

Cheaper alternative: https://github.com/huggingface/lerobot https://github.com/huggingface/lerobot Some local people made this with it: https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3BygZpa6Eo https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3BygZpa6Eo

iseanstevens 2y ago

(Oops saw other comment linked, but I’ll leave this comment in case summary is helpful) Check out the SO100 arm, being supported by Huggingface and others. Only 4 axis, but cheap AF (<$250/arm) and using ML to make it more capable than 4 axis would seem. Also using identical arms for mirror teleportation/training. https://github.com/TheRobotStudio/SO-ARM100 https://github.com/TheRobotStudio/SO-ARM100

nullc 2y ago
4 is still though fundamentally limited: you need a minimum six DOF to position all three translational and rotational freedoms. The human arm has 7, and I think a case can be made the smart software would reduce the problems from having only exactly as many as required. ... but not eliminate: the extra degree of freedom lets you "get out of your own way" when moving objects that are not zero size trough multiple positions :) Perhaps 4 is enough for any specific application, but then again perhaps 3 is or 2. :P I've never programmed a robot arm, but I've spent a fair amount of time using a seven axis faro arm (a coordinate measuring device, sort of the opposite of a robot arm) and it certainly takes some practice to avoid "cant move there from here without reorienting everything", it's easy to take for granted what our brains do automatically for us. :)
- IanCal 2y ago
  Humans have 7 dof but we can't get into all positions, as I've found clearly today trying to reach things for my kids in the back seat of the car.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    That's because of joint range of motion limitations. It's different to DoF limitations which is what was being discussed.
    - IanCal 2y ago
      The point is that you can achieve a lot without being able to access every position and the human arm having a lot of degrees of freedom doesn't necessarily mean it's more capable than a different arm with fewer.

samch 2y ago

This is my favorite DIY robot arm at the moment. The parts seem to be fairly high quality, and it has a leader / follower arm option if you build a second one: https://github.com/AlexanderKoch-Koch/low_cost_robot/tree/main https://github.com/AlexanderKoch-Koch/low_cost_robot/tree/ma...

numba888 2y ago
When looking at low cost arms I check how it connects to the mount. If it hangs on just a servo it will be very wobbly. Most mentioned in this thread are. For this price or bit more you can get a way better arm on ebay with big ball bearing on the base for stability. I got a kit for $60 or $80 recently. No servos, full metal. It's easy to add servos and put together, for now I have other arms assembled ;) No steppers because I want them to be cheap and imprecise for ML project.
- numba888 2y ago
  Just got for $40 on amazon cheap arm with servos and bearing at the base. "Robot Arm Kits for Arduino Coding". Not that I need it, just like putting things together. Arduino not included, but I have it already. Let's see if I can use Raspberry Pico instead.

BubbleRings 2y ago

If you ever wonder what you could actually do with a nice arm… well, I had one for a while, and the following is the best I could come up with at the time. A fun little video: https://youtu.be/-UzOfwHeV5k?si=0eK8H3_3aO3yzs44 https://youtu.be/-UzOfwHeV5k?si=0eK8H3_3aO3yzs44

leetrout 2y ago
Since you knew the reference plane of the table did picking up the dominos only need to calculate the orientation?
- BubbleRings 2y ago
  Heh, the video is a little deceptive. The arm had no vision capability, so I faked it. The dominos only look like they are sitting in a random pile. Actually, they are sitting in very precise positions, so the arm would find them correctly when it ran a program I built by pointing the arm at the locations using the joystick.

kennywinker 2y ago

How does this cost around 1000euros to diy? It looks like some steppers and some printed parts and a control board… the kind of parts you find on a 3d printer you can buy for $200 - what am i missing? Genuine question!

numba888 2y ago
>what am i missing? 1000e kit does not include steppers and board..
IshKebab 2y ago
This is clearly a huge step up above 3D printers.
- kennywinker 2y ago
  In what way? It’s using nema 17 motors, the same as most printers. They sell completed units for ~3000eur and that totally makes sense - but if I want to do the labour and parts sourcing myself what is driving the estimated cost so high? $250 for the custom controller board, $20*6 for the motors, $60 of plastic. That’s well under $500

brcmthrowaway 2y ago

I want to see this but for soft robotics

amelius 2y ago

The problem with these robots is the accuracy. You can't really use them for precision work, like populating a board with SMD components. This robot also seems quite slow.

debeloo 2y ago

I'd love to see pictures and video on the landing page.