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> In hydrocarbons the majority of energy comes from the oxidation of hydrogen. This I wasn't quite aware of. Thanks for the correction. > But it's theoretical

> In hydrocarbons the majority of energy comes from the oxidation of hydrogen. This I wasn't quite aware of. Thanks for the correction. > But it's theoretically possible to burn hydrocarbons and turn the CO2 into coal and leave it like that with a net energy gain This would be a game-changer! Though "theoretically" is pulling a bit of weight here... > We should get rid of coal first, as it's irredeemable in this regard and methane second, as it's a greenhouse gas which tends to leak, I also agree with your list. Burning stuff for grid energy should stop ASAP. Liquid fuel for transport is, however, the most difficult and probably the last to be replaced. It's to the point that generating green liquid fuels (that don't use fossil sources of carbon) is still actively researched and used, as air travel or shipping may never become feasible on green energy sources.

bluGill 2y ago
Ever see a diesel 'rolling coal'? They are burning the hydrogen and sending carbon into the air. Terrible for the local evironment though. this is still carbon positive though since some carbon is burned - just not all.
blkhawk 2y ago
> But it's theoretically possible to burn hydrocarbons and turn the CO2 into coal and leave > it like that with a net energy gain > This would be a game-changer! Though "theoretically" is pulling a bit of weight here... In nat. gas this is possible - its called pyrolisis - as an alternative to steam reformation it is generating pure carbon and hydrogen instead of the CO2 and Hydrogen that steam reformation does. Its main downside is that it takes more energy so you get less usable energy out of the process. You can do it with other organic fuels as well and the simplest process is making charcoal from wood but its not as clear a way to separate out carbon there.
taurknaut 2y ago
> Burning stuff for grid energy should stop ASAP. Sadly I think the only viable route to this is wealthy countries paying poor countries to dismantle these power plants (and presumably replace them with something equivalent). This has two nice benefits. One, wealthy countries show they act in good faith. Two, this will greatly reduce wealth disparity. Of course, there's the chance some people will threaten to emit gas to acquire disproportionate power. This is true, but still preferable to the west just roasting the planet and then blaming china. Like grow tf up.
- amrocha 2y ago
  This is putting the cart before the horses. These wealthy countries haven’t even stopped burning fossil fuels. Let’s focus on that first.
  - taurknaut 2y ago
    Why not both? We've been claiming to want to reduce carbon emissions since before I was born. It's not even a hard pitch—if we're insanely wealthy and have the capacity to discuss greening our grid and still can't or won't, why would you reasonably expect countries with basically no capacity to do this to forget about centuries of globalization, colonization, and exploitation? We burned the globe; if we want to heal this, the most reasonable approach is good-faith reconciliation and remediation. But the way conversation is now we're headed straight towards ecofascism. A healthy globe for me but not for thee (as if this even makes much sense).
    - bruce511 2y ago
      You're right. It's convenient for the US to blame "developing economies" (especially China) for the problem. Solutions like "buying off other countries" make sense. (And in itself is not a bad idea.) But it's a deflection from the bigger issue which is consumption at home. But as long as we can make it a "them " problem, our population doesn't have to feel guilt, or understand they are the people who need to change.
    - nradov 2y ago
      Sounds good I'm theory but tough to put into practice. Regardless of the environmental consequences there is no way that voters in wealthy countries will agree to subsidize hostile regimes. And many of those countries are so deeply corrupt that the majority of funding tends to be stolen by corrupt politicians or building contractors.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >wealthy countries paying poor countries to dismantle these power plants (and presumably replace them with something equivalent) And what about wealthy countries, that using those power plants? I mean there aren't many of them now, but have you been communicating with Europeans recently? Not with the privileged elites in the universities, but with the working class Europeans? There are so many complaints about energy prices that I'm afraid even there democracy can't be thwarted anymore and we'll see burners all over Europe in like 10 years from now.
tremon 2y ago
shipping may never become feasible on green energy sources If only we had some historical records explaining how pre-industrialized societies navigated the globe without fossil fuels...
- pfisch 2y ago
  Did those societies feed and clothe billions of people?
xbmcuser 2y ago
China has started adding battery electric container ships to it's local shipping fleets. They have also started using some battery electric cargo trains. Now if they can just get off coal for their electricity consumption they are very close to the tipping point. So in my opinion we are getting there in terms of carbon output but I also think it is to late to stop global warming and we have crossed the point of no return already. https://electrek.co/2024/05/02/fully-electric-10000-ton-container-ship-begun-service50000-kwh-batteries/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/02/fully-electric-10000-ton-cont...
- bruce511 2y ago
  There's still a ways to go, but China are progressing faster at this than the US is. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-wind-power-installed-capacity-soars-2024-2025-01-21 https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-wind-po... While the US looks at China as the convenient villan here, the rest of the world sees the US as the villan and China at least aggressively attacking the problem. And that's before we consider the impact Chinese exports of solar panels and inverters have had on renewable energy production outside of China. One may not like the system of govt in China, or their human rights policies (personally, I don't, but each to his own), but as far as climate change goes they're getting stuff done while the US govt does nothing. Or actively fights against improvements.
  - xbmcuser 2y ago
    China is demonized in the western countries for human rights abuses only because it is a communist country I am not saying that China is not doing bad shit but that western countries hypocrisy of only highlighting China. Where as they themselves have exploited and are still exploiting African countries resources by using corrupt African politicians that are doing many human rights on their people. At least Europeans have started to at least call-out Israel now but they should also call out US for enabling Israel but for those abuses it's okay not to say anything to the US.
    - nradov 2y ago

bluGill 2y ago

Ever see a diesel 'rolling coal'? They are burning the hydrogen and sending carbon into the air. Terrible for the local evironment though. this is still carbon positive though since some carbon is burned - just not all.

blkhawk 2y ago

> But it's theoretically possible to burn hydrocarbons and turn the CO2 into coal and leave > it like that with a net energy gain > This would be a game-changer! Though "theoretically" is pulling a bit of weight here... In nat. gas this is possible - its called pyrolisis - as an alternative to steam reformation it is generating pure carbon and hydrogen instead of the CO2 and Hydrogen that steam reformation does. Its main downside is that it takes more energy so you get less usable energy out of the process. You can do it with other organic fuels as well and the simplest process is making charcoal from wood but its not as clear a way to separate out carbon there.

taurknaut 2y ago

> Burning stuff for grid energy should stop ASAP. Sadly I think the only viable route to this is wealthy countries paying poor countries to dismantle these power plants (and presumably replace them with something equivalent). This has two nice benefits. One, wealthy countries show they act in good faith. Two, this will greatly reduce wealth disparity. Of course, there's the chance some people will threaten to emit gas to acquire disproportionate power. This is true, but still preferable to the west just roasting the planet and then blaming china. Like grow tf up.

amrocha 2y ago
This is putting the cart before the horses. These wealthy countries haven’t even stopped burning fossil fuels. Let’s focus on that first.
- taurknaut 2y ago
  Why not both? We've been claiming to want to reduce carbon emissions since before I was born. It's not even a hard pitch—if we're insanely wealthy and have the capacity to discuss greening our grid and still can't or won't, why would you reasonably expect countries with basically no capacity to do this to forget about centuries of globalization, colonization, and exploitation? We burned the globe; if we want to heal this, the most reasonable approach is good-faith reconciliation and remediation. But the way conversation is now we're headed straight towards ecofascism. A healthy globe for me but not for thee (as if this even makes much sense).
  - bruce511 2y ago
    You're right. It's convenient for the US to blame "developing economies" (especially China) for the problem. Solutions like "buying off other countries" make sense. (And in itself is not a bad idea.) But it's a deflection from the bigger issue which is consumption at home. But as long as we can make it a "them " problem, our population doesn't have to feel guilt, or understand they are the people who need to change.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Sounds good I'm theory but tough to put into practice. Regardless of the environmental consequences there is no way that voters in wealthy countries will agree to subsidize hostile regimes. And many of those countries are so deeply corrupt that the majority of funding tends to be stolen by corrupt politicians or building contractors.
Ray20 2y ago
>wealthy countries paying poor countries to dismantle these power plants (and presumably replace them with something equivalent) And what about wealthy countries, that using those power plants? I mean there aren't many of them now, but have you been communicating with Europeans recently? Not with the privileged elites in the universities, but with the working class Europeans? There are so many complaints about energy prices that I'm afraid even there democracy can't be thwarted anymore and we'll see burners all over Europe in like 10 years from now.

tremon 2y ago

shipping may never become feasible on green energy sources If only we had some historical records explaining how pre-industrialized societies navigated the globe without fossil fuels...

pfisch 2y ago
Did those societies feed and clothe billions of people?

xbmcuser 2y ago

China has started adding battery electric container ships to it's local shipping fleets. They have also started using some battery electric cargo trains. Now if they can just get off coal for their electricity consumption they are very close to the tipping point. So in my opinion we are getting there in terms of carbon output but I also think it is to late to stop global warming and we have crossed the point of no return already. https://electrek.co/2024/05/02/fully-electric-10000-ton-container-ship-begun-service50000-kwh-batteries/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/02/fully-electric-10000-ton-cont...

bruce511 2y ago
There's still a ways to go, but China are progressing faster at this than the US is. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-wind-power-installed-capacity-soars-2024-2025-01-21 https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-wind-po... While the US looks at China as the convenient villan here, the rest of the world sees the US as the villan and China at least aggressively attacking the problem. And that's before we consider the impact Chinese exports of solar panels and inverters have had on renewable energy production outside of China. One may not like the system of govt in China, or their human rights policies (personally, I don't, but each to his own), but as far as climate change goes they're getting stuff done while the US govt does nothing. Or actively fights against improvements.
- xbmcuser 2y ago
  China is demonized in the western countries for human rights abuses only because it is a communist country I am not saying that China is not doing bad shit but that western countries hypocrisy of only highlighting China. Where as they themselves have exploited and are still exploiting African countries resources by using corrupt African politicians that are doing many human rights on their people. At least Europeans have started to at least call-out Israel now but they should also call out US for enabling Israel but for those abuses it's okay not to say anything to the US.
  - nradov 2y ago