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There is a fantastic blog post by Ross Rheingans-Yoo about the shortcomings of poker as a tool to teach trading and why Figgie is a better one. https://blog.ros

There is a fantastic blog post by Ross Rheingans-Yoo about the shortcomings of poker as a tool to teach trading and why Figgie is a better one. https://blog.rossry.net/figgie/ https://blog.rossry.net/figgie/ He also wrote an equally brilliant eulogy about Max Chiswick, one of his colleagues, who helped him develop it. https://blog.rossry.net/chisness/ https://blog.rossry.net/chisness/

matt_daemon 2y ago
Wow, that’s sad about Max Chiswick. I was reading about him and his peculiar approach to eating only a couple of months ago. May his work on poker live on.
- pinkmuffinere 2y ago
  His peculiar approach to eating??? Wow I need to hear about this. I’ll Google, but do you have any recommended articles?
  - sebg 2y ago
    https://chisness.substack.com/p/automate-the-food https://chisness.substack.com/p/automate-the-food
    - oidar 2y ago
      Very sad. Max wrote about optimizing nutrition and cited a satire piece about over-optimization ruining someone's life. Then, ironically, he died from malaria while traveling—despite having donated to malaria prevention. Life defies our attempts to control it.
    - lovich 2y ago
      Is this satire or was he a conspiracy theorist? It didn’t take very long into the article before he started talking about “seed oil infiltration”. My eyes rolled into the back of my head and I was unable to continue reading any more of the article after that
      - pinkmuffinere 2y ago
        My impression is that he’s sincere, but that his writing is lighthearted and does “overplay” things for humorous effect. That said, I do think he’s opposed to seed oil. Not having looked into it much, I can’t judge whether he’s crazy or not. But even if he’s wrong, who among us _doesn’t_ have some conspiracy-ish views? I’ll go first: I think fruit juice and milk are not “health foods”, and more comparable to soda. We’ve been duped by Big Milk.
        blacksmith_tb 2y ago
        Plenty of agricultural subsidies there for sure, but milk and even fruit juice do provide some nutrients (besides sugar and water) so I think it might be overstating the case a little to lump them in with soda.
        pinkmuffinere 2y ago
        I don’t think they’re quite as bad as soda, but I do think they’re fairly close. I think this video is what first convinced me (been a long time since I watched, sorry if I’m wrong about small details): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI&pp=ygUWSGVhbHRoY2FyZSB0cmlhZ2UgbWlsaw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI&pp=ygUWSGVhbHRoY2F...
      - billyjmc 2y ago
        I don’t think it requires conspiratorial thinking to believe that seed oils are less healthful than more traditional sources of cooking oils / fats (for one reason or another). Regardless of that, given that seed oils can be produced cheaply and incorporated in to foods to increase profit, “seed oil infiltration” into foods is very real.
        lovich 2y ago
        It does require conspiratorial thinking because it’s a conspiracy theory. It’s not a particularly old one either, it started showing up a year or two before Covid if I recall right.
xrd 2y ago
My god that eulogy post is a work of art. What incredible writing and what an incredible albeit brief friendship they had.
charlieyu1 2y ago
I play poker. It really takes thousands of hours to understand the game from a strategic point of view. Then when you have a few very good players, maybe you can start talking about psychology.
- marksimi 2y ago
  Real talk
- htamas 2y ago
  Any learning material you can recommend?
aqueueaqueue 2y ago
In the other direction I like Skull as a pure bluff game without all the pot odds (there is still a bit of odds of course)
czhu12 2y ago
Wow, just read through the eulogy and dug up some further links to explore, by Max Chiswick. Some really amazing content developed by these two, but never widely circulated. https://aipokertutorial.com/ https://aipokertutorial.com/ https://poker.camp/aipcs24/1kuhn_reading.html https://poker.camp/aipcs24/1kuhn_reading.html
jonahx 2y ago
Worth noting the author's retraction of the figgie post mentioned, which he makes in the eulogy post: "Put that way, I was (and am) convinced that my original post was arguing against a strawman . I had never actually played the kind of poker that would make a fair comparison!"
noname123 2y ago
Beautiful eulogy. I don't know the author nor the eulogized but reading the eulogy made me appreciate people like those two (poker players, options traders, sports gamblers etc). I often see in HN comments about how trading and Wall St in general is evil - when I feel completely the opposite. The two inventors of Figgie may not have contributed directly to curing cancer, saving the dolphins or the whales - dare I posit that most of tech building enterprise JIRA-esque todo-lists, e-commerce middleware and ad trackers don't either. What I love about their friendship is that I see poker/gambler-mindset of always going for it, shoving the chips to the middle of the table when the pot-odds are good and it is a +EV play. I think they went all-in on several projects such as Figgie, AI Poker and teaching - seemingly all without the whole LinkedIn life coach-advised manner of building up your brand, client-base etc. The older I get, I find more value too in the honesty of finance and trader types. Yes trading is about money but being honest about that is ironically one of the most altruistic things that can happen for a person. I find that most traders and gamblers who become aware of their greed and selfishness in their work - ironically also causes them to be very generous and selfless people in life due to their constant awareness of that limitation; and to also have zero fox given about what other people think of them professionally and socially (vs. in tech nowadays). As an options trader/gambler, I'm thankful for the author's eulogy and their efforts in inventing the game. It's a bittersweet story. I read from the eulogy that Max Chiswick embraced the variance of life. Their friendship albeit short and sweet for me is like a fat right tail call option - the holding period might've only been a year and change - but the payoff is one that enriches the soul for life.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  price discovery of more assets will providing more liquidity and faster financing to cure cancer so thats an easy rebuttal to keep in the back pocket
  - majormajor 2y ago
    What if curing cancer needs education, applied intellect, and inspiration more than it needs "financing"? No small number of examples of places with plenty of financiers that have said "aha, we need to have [thing X], let's [throw some money at it]" without much useful results because they don't actually have the necessary people, knowhow, networks, or institutions.
FilosofumRex 2y ago
The cabal at Jane Street keeps getting dirtier and nastier. For those of us who happen to have known them from their ivy league days at MIT and Harvard on to predictably careers at JS, HRT or Five Rings, no surprises here. They all 1)ran student clubs, often time starting their own if they had to, but couldn't care less about the mission or welfare of the group, just so it'd be show leadership skills. They all 2) swore allegiance to Effective Altruism mental without ever volunteering a minute to any worthy cause, most interestingly, 3)interbred only among themselves, possibly because they're too smart to associate with other students. I find it amazing just how just a few firms on Wall Street seem to fish out all sorts of sociopaths right of ivy league grads. SBF(MIT), R-Yoo brothers (Harvard), happen to have made it to the news so far, but there are new generations coming right behind them - just look for Effective Altruism on their LinkedIn profile. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/business/ftx-sbf-modulo-capital.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/business/ftx-sbf-modulo-c...

matt_daemon 2y ago

Wow, that’s sad about Max Chiswick. I was reading about him and his peculiar approach to eating only a couple of months ago. May his work on poker live on.

pinkmuffinere 2y ago
His peculiar approach to eating??? Wow I need to hear about this. I’ll Google, but do you have any recommended articles?
- sebg 2y ago
  https://chisness.substack.com/p/automate-the-food https://chisness.substack.com/p/automate-the-food
  - oidar 2y ago
    Very sad. Max wrote about optimizing nutrition and cited a satire piece about over-optimization ruining someone's life. Then, ironically, he died from malaria while traveling—despite having donated to malaria prevention. Life defies our attempts to control it.
  - lovich 2y ago
    Is this satire or was he a conspiracy theorist? It didn’t take very long into the article before he started talking about “seed oil infiltration”. My eyes rolled into the back of my head and I was unable to continue reading any more of the article after that
    - pinkmuffinere 2y ago
      My impression is that he’s sincere, but that his writing is lighthearted and does “overplay” things for humorous effect. That said, I do think he’s opposed to seed oil. Not having looked into it much, I can’t judge whether he’s crazy or not. But even if he’s wrong, who among us _doesn’t_ have some conspiracy-ish views? I’ll go first: I think fruit juice and milk are not “health foods”, and more comparable to soda. We’ve been duped by Big Milk.
      - blacksmith_tb 2y ago
        Plenty of agricultural subsidies there for sure, but milk and even fruit juice do provide some nutrients (besides sugar and water) so I think it might be overstating the case a little to lump them in with soda.
        pinkmuffinere 2y ago
        I don’t think they’re quite as bad as soda, but I do think they’re fairly close. I think this video is what first convinced me (been a long time since I watched, sorry if I’m wrong about small details): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI&pp=ygUWSGVhbHRoY2FyZSB0cmlhZ2UgbWlsaw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzyFZcuHmeI&pp=ygUWSGVhbHRoY2F...
    - billyjmc 2y ago
      I don’t think it requires conspiratorial thinking to believe that seed oils are less healthful than more traditional sources of cooking oils / fats (for one reason or another). Regardless of that, given that seed oils can be produced cheaply and incorporated in to foods to increase profit, “seed oil infiltration” into foods is very real.
      - lovich 2y ago
        It does require conspiratorial thinking because it’s a conspiracy theory. It’s not a particularly old one either, it started showing up a year or two before Covid if I recall right.

xrd 2y ago

My god that eulogy post is a work of art. What incredible writing and what an incredible albeit brief friendship they had.

charlieyu1 2y ago

I play poker. It really takes thousands of hours to understand the game from a strategic point of view. Then when you have a few very good players, maybe you can start talking about psychology.

marksimi 2y ago
Real talk
htamas 2y ago
Any learning material you can recommend?

aqueueaqueue 2y ago

In the other direction I like Skull as a pure bluff game without all the pot odds (there is still a bit of odds of course)

czhu12 2y ago

Wow, just read through the eulogy and dug up some further links to explore, by Max Chiswick. Some really amazing content developed by these two, but never widely circulated. https://aipokertutorial.com/ https://aipokertutorial.com/ https://poker.camp/aipcs24/1kuhn_reading.html https://poker.camp/aipcs24/1kuhn_reading.html

jonahx 2y ago

Worth noting the author's retraction of the figgie post mentioned, which he makes in the eulogy post: "Put that way, I was (and am) convinced that my original post was arguing against a strawman . I had never actually played the kind of poker that would make a fair comparison!"

noname123 2y ago

Beautiful eulogy. I don't know the author nor the eulogized but reading the eulogy made me appreciate people like those two (poker players, options traders, sports gamblers etc). I often see in HN comments about how trading and Wall St in general is evil - when I feel completely the opposite. The two inventors of Figgie may not have contributed directly to curing cancer, saving the dolphins or the whales - dare I posit that most of tech building enterprise JIRA-esque todo-lists, e-commerce middleware and ad trackers don't either. What I love about their friendship is that I see poker/gambler-mindset of always going for it, shoving the chips to the middle of the table when the pot-odds are good and it is a +EV play. I think they went all-in on several projects such as Figgie, AI Poker and teaching - seemingly all without the whole LinkedIn life coach-advised manner of building up your brand, client-base etc. The older I get, I find more value too in the honesty of finance and trader types. Yes trading is about money but being honest about that is ironically one of the most altruistic things that can happen for a person. I find that most traders and gamblers who become aware of their greed and selfishness in their work - ironically also causes them to be very generous and selfless people in life due to their constant awareness of that limitation; and to also have zero fox given about what other people think of them professionally and socially (vs. in tech nowadays). As an options trader/gambler, I'm thankful for the author's eulogy and their efforts in inventing the game. It's a bittersweet story. I read from the eulogy that Max Chiswick embraced the variance of life. Their friendship albeit short and sweet for me is like a fat right tail call option - the holding period might've only been a year and change - but the payoff is one that enriches the soul for life.

yieldcrv 2y ago
price discovery of more assets will providing more liquidity and faster financing to cure cancer so thats an easy rebuttal to keep in the back pocket
- majormajor 2y ago
  What if curing cancer needs education, applied intellect, and inspiration more than it needs "financing"? No small number of examples of places with plenty of financiers that have said "aha, we need to have [thing X], let's [throw some money at it]" without much useful results because they don't actually have the necessary people, knowhow, networks, or institutions.

FilosofumRex 2y ago

The cabal at Jane Street keeps getting dirtier and nastier. For those of us who happen to have known them from their ivy league days at MIT and Harvard on to predictably careers at JS, HRT or Five Rings, no surprises here. They all 1)ran student clubs, often time starting their own if they had to, but couldn't care less about the mission or welfare of the group, just so it'd be show leadership skills. They all 2) swore allegiance to Effective Altruism mental without ever volunteering a minute to any worthy cause, most interestingly, 3)interbred only among themselves, possibly because they're too smart to associate with other students. I find it amazing just how just a few firms on Wall Street seem to fish out all sorts of sociopaths right of ivy league grads. SBF(MIT), R-Yoo brothers (Harvard), happen to have made it to the news so far, but there are new generations coming right behind them - just look for Effective Altruism on their LinkedIn profile. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/business/ftx-sbf-modulo-capital.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/business/ftx-sbf-modulo-c...