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U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say
- davidmurphy 2y agoHas anyone seen any indication the UK might be demanding similar backdoors in Signal? Is Signal likely to be compromised too?
- thiscatis 2y agoIt's only a threat when non US countries demand it, otherwise it's just a safety measure.
- panki27 2y agoPatriot act and cloud act threatens everyone else. More news at 11.
- grimui 2y agohttp://archive.today/ujbf8 http://archive.today/ujbf8
- Shank 2y agoI think this is an unquestionable overreach on the UK's part. If you live in any country that isn't the UK, you should feel the threat from this: the UK government believes that it is entitled to a backdoor on your hardware, even if you've never stepped a foot on UK soil or intend to. Mass surveillance is a threat to everyone, but this is not an instance of that, which has guards against it, like encryption. This is the UK asking for an encryption backdoor to everything, including for phones that never traverse its soil or internet boundaries, or even cross anywhere near FVEY collection devices. This is a dramatic overreach of authority.
- varsketiz 2y ago> This is a dramatic overreach of authority. Well, the rest of the world lives with the USA constantly doing this. Hopefully you dont support that as well.
- graeme 2y agoThe US does not require Apple to make a backdoor to its encryption.
- Workaccount2 2y agoBut it is greatly in the interest of US agencies to perpetuate conspiracies that they have access to all data, all the time, with no court needed.
- nickslaughter02 2y agoHow do you know that? Similarly to the UK, USA has a process to force companies to add back doors. For all we know it might the USA wanting access and using its five eyes allies to get it done.
- sieabahlpark 2y agoPoint to the law that requires them to do it and keep quiet about it. The US law. I'll wait.
- Frieren 2y agoEuropean countries and the USA have an increased misalignment as the USA becomes more radicalized and less willing to work with other countries.
- kstrauser 2y agoIn this specific case: good. I don’t want USA companies cooperating with UK’s extremist policies like this one.
- gmueckl 2y agoCompanies cannot really stand up to governments. Unless another government gets involved, Apple will have to follow UK law if they want to keep doing business in that country. By the way, the US is not a stranger to that kind of overreach, either (e.g. CLOUD act).
- wincy 2y agoA large part of what enables huge multinational companies like Apple to be successful and resist stuff like this is a friendly administration and threats by the largest economy in the world. Apple is being sufficiently friendly with the current administration that lawmakers are going to go to bat for them and prevent this sort of stuff from happening. Apple is a pawn on a global stage and the governments are the true players. It’s always been this way, it’s just more obvious now. The big sea change has been the last four years big tech has been a target of its own government as well as foreign governments. That’s largely why you’ve seen big tech jump ship to a political party that better serves their interests and doesn’t constantly investigate them. I’m not being political here, it’s just a fact of life. Apple is going to be protected as they bent the knee and kissed the ring, just look at the name of the large Gulf to the southeast of the United States in Apple Maps.
- briandear 2y agoThe official name in the GNIS for that body of water is the Gulf of America. So what name should Apple and Google Maps use for US users? What do the map companies call the Islas Malvinas? Or the East Sea? How about the Gulf of California? Or the Sea of Cortez? How about Mt Everest? If a Mexican mapping tech company wants to call it the Gulf of Mexico, that’s their right.
- pjc50 2y agoThis is basically the reverse of the Microsoft Safe Harbor case. Europeans should be safe from US spying, Americans should be safe from UK spying, and so should everyone else.
- croes 2y agoDon’t confuse EU with Europe. And the EU citizens aren’t safe from US spying, so why should US citizens be?
- gambiting 2y agoNot to be cynical, but if anyone has looked at anything revealed about security agencies in the last few years it's very clear what's happening here - whenever US wants to do something unpopular/straight up illegal, it just asks the UK(or any other partner country) to do it instead. American government can't ask Apple for data on any American citizen, but if UK obtains that data and then it happens to be shared between agencies......that's all fine. It's been happening already for years.
- josefritzishere 2y agoYou are right... I hadn't put that together.
- flir 2y agoI wouldn't go full-on conspiracy, because I expect the impetus came from the UK, but... I doubt it would have gotten this far without tacit US gov support.
- mjburgess 2y agoNot only would I not be surprised if this was a US demand on the UK, but I'd think it highly likely that the law which the UK passed to allow this was also a demand from the US.
- sieabahlpark 2y ago[dead]
- michaelt 2y agoGovernments are huge and constantly changing things. The cops think this is great, more power in their hands. The feds think it'll help them out, but those local cops will try to abuse it for sure, let's hope the courts keep on top of the warrants. The spies already have access that's almost as good by illegal means, without the need for any of those pesky warrants. But it'll be useful not to have to keep their access secret. The judges think this is a Fourth Amendment bust-up waiting to happen, why would you even... ugh. The defensive cyber-security types think this is very obviously a bad move. The diplomats think the Brits are OK and will do their warrant stuff properly, but for sure there will immediately be a request from some oil-rich middle eastern dictatorship for the same access. That will make for some awkward conversations. The elected politicians in power want to get votes, and are safe against this power being used against them. Being tough on crime and Backing The Blue might be a vote-winner. 95% of voters don't know the difference between "encrypted end-to-end" and "encrypted in transit and at rest" so getting this right might not win you many votes. On the other hand, if this takes off in the public consciousness as snooping, or intrusion, or an expansion of state power, could lose you a lot of votes. Maybe wait and see how the public reacts? The elected politicians who aren't in power think ooooh boy, this is not a power I want used against me, and not an administration I'd trust not to use it against me.
- whatever1 2y ago[flagged]
- freedomben 2y ago> What is the problem? If Elon and a bunch of randos can have access why the UK cannot? Surely if they make a large enough donation to the west wing a deal can be made! Are you really implying that Elon has a back door into encryption in the US? You probably better cite a source for that one cause that's deep conspiracy theory territory
- whatever1 2y agoWhat encryption ? He is given the keys to confidential federal documents, systems and lists.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoWhich is not the topic we are discussing here, and is therefore a complete non sequitur. Do you have anything to say about the topic at hand?
- whatever1 2y agoThe topic is the bar for revealing your citizens data. My thesis is that Elon sets the bar. UK as a longtime vetted ally easily clears it.
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- josefritzishere 2y agoIt is only safe to assume that every security vulnerability will eventually be discovered, and exploited by a bad actor. Knowing that, willfully creating more vulnerabilities, however well intnded, is just reckless.
- philipov 2y agoThat's why they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- micromacrofoot 2y agopublicly asking for a backdoor is like telling a pirate "we buried treasure here, please don't dig"
- chrisjj 2y agoMore like "we buried treasure, please don't dig".
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y agoMore like, “we buried treasure in any one or more of a handful of viable burial locations, please don’t dig”.
- nickslaughter02 2y agoIn case you're wondering why there hasn't been any reaction from the EU, it's probably because EU has long waged war on encryption and would like to have access too. "Anonymity is not a fundamental right": experts disagree with Europol chief's request for encryption back door (January 22, 2025) https://www.techradar.com/computing/cyber-security/anonymity-is-not-a-fundamental-right-experts-disagree-with-europol-chiefs-request-for-encryption-back-door https://www.techradar.com/computing/cyber-security/anonymity... EU anti-encryption crusaders seek to turn your digital devices into spyware (June 12, 2024) https://www.techradar.com/computing/cyber-security/eu-anti-encryption-crusaders-seek-to-turn-your-digital-devices-into-spyware https://www.techradar.com/computing/cyber-security/eu-anti-e...
- esafak 2y agoIf every country starts demanding a backdoor, and also banning companies for being backdoored by other countries, what are companies to do? So dumb.
- guelermus 2y agoIf US have a backdoor, why not others? Privacy is a myth and a mobile can be secure only after a hammer touch.
- gruez 2y agoUS has backdoor to icloud ADP?
- gman83 2y agoWhy is it ok that the American government have a backdoor & have access to all non-American's personal data, but when the UK/EU wants something similar, suddenly it's a massive outrage. Is it just "we're stronger than you", so it's ok when we do it?
- switch007 2y agoThe US believes whatever the US does is morally right and justified Yes it's might is right
- madeofpalk 2y agoWas Snowden not a massive outrage?
- gruez 2y agoDefine "backdoor". US authorities being able to demand data service providers have access to (eg. your gmail account) is nowhere comparable to an encryption backdoor, which is what's proposed here.
- croes 2y agoBecause the US don’t ask for a backdoor in encryption, they build it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG
- gruez 2y agoYour own article admits it's basically used nowhere. That's important, because OP specifically claims that the US government has"access to all non-American's personal data". Moreover it was widely condemned, contrary to OP's claim of "but when the UK/EU wants something similar, suddenly it's a massive outrage. Is it just "we're stronger than you", so it's ok when we do it?".
- croes 2y agoAt least UK demands it openly. The US spied on EU’s industry with ECHOLON, 9/11 prevented further investigations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON And the US and Germany sold backdoored crypto hardware to allies per Crypto AG in Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG My point is: the UK demands are bad but I‘m sure the US agencies have similar demands and also backdoors, I‘m looking at you Cisco, just not openly. The UK is playing with open cards, the US don‘t. I trust neither but the US are more devious.
- waltercool 2y agoTrash paywall media. Read this article for free from another website: https://appleinsider.com/articles/25/02/13/uks-iphone-spying-backdoor-demand-sparks-bipartisan-us-lawmaker-anger https://appleinsider.com/articles/25/02/13/uks-iphone-spying... Also, response from Tulsi Gabbard: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tulsi-gabbard-told-crush-uk-155712449.html https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tulsi-gabbard-told-crush-uk-155712...
- ingen0s 2y agoagreed, thank you
- k3nx 2y agoFolks should stop playing with words, and call it what it is. I feel like this should be called an act of war. It is espionage. UK against is people, UK against the world. And yes, the same goes for the US, China, Russia, and anyone else that does it. It doesn't mean if you're country does it it's right. It's wrong everywhere, some are just OK with it, but it still doesn't make it right.
- hluska 2y agoThis is not an act of war, mate. War is a whole world nastier than breaking crypto.
- hnthrowaway0315 2y agoMaybe they can both demand a different backdoor so their adversaries don't even need to ask for one. /s
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nessbot 2y agoHow does this political story stay up but not the ones about DOGE? What gives?
- crazygringo 2y agoThere was a huge story with 1600 points three days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42981756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42981756 We don't need new stories daily. And stories about encryption back doors are as much technological as political.
- nessbot 2y agoThe story[0] I'm referring to is about the Technology Transformation Services, which I think is also apt. Also, I would argue that the actions of government are more political than technological or, actually, that making such a distinction is naive. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43037426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43037426
- tim333 2y agoThere are at least 60 recent DOGE stories on HN with comments on. I guess people get a bit DOGEd out. It's probably part of the Trump/Musk strategy. 'Flood the zone' with so many things people can't follow it. (on zone flooding https://youtu.be/iTSgL_R1CC4 https://youtu.be/iTSgL_R1CC4)
- croes 2y agoIt happened a lot more with DOGE
- reaperducer 2y agoU.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans Shoe, meet other foot.
- wonderwonder 2y agoHas apple responded to this? Are they going to comply with the UK demand?
- andyjohnson0 2y agoAs a brit I would find it amusing if Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft jointly announced that privacy is a hill to die on, and they'd rather collectively withdraw their businesses from the UK than accede to demands like this. My government would cave within the hour.
- tim333 2y agoProbably Apple will refuse to comply then the UK govt will threaten fines and then nothing much will happen.
- kypro 2y ago100%. We have very little power to demand this in my opinion. Honestly I don't think Apple would even need to work with other tech giants on this (although that would help). The UK makes up a few percent of Apple's total revenues so while Apple would take a hit, they can afford to pull out of the UK and it could be worth doing if they're serious about proving how important privacy is to them. Apple will face some reputational harm should they choose to put a back door in their products at the threat of an authoritarian government, and that harm will need to be weighed against the cost of pulling out of the UK entirely. And realistically Apple announcing that they're going to pull out of the UK will result in panic in confidence in UK tech. How the hell are we going to build competitive tech companies if developers can't even access Apple products? And after 14 years of economic stagnation it's not like we have excess growth we can give up... Apple should be very firm in their response to this. The UK are over playing their hand.
- randunel 2y agoYou mean, like the rest of the world'd financial institutions do for the US? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Complian...
- MrScruff 2y agoExactly, the UK’s number one priority right now is growth, otherwise we’re headed for austerity and possibly an election victory for Reform/Nigel Farage. I don’t think entering into a standoff with Apple over this is going to do much to give the impression the UK is great for business.
- zombiwoof 2y agoUk should demand Tulsi send back to Russia
- Nifty3929 2y agoI keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted by talking about cookies and ad-tracking and whatnot, and always bring it right back to privacy from governments. Yes, corporations and the government are often in cahoots here - but even then we should be talking about how wrong it is for governments to be buying/taking/demanding data from corporations - keeping the focus squarely on the government. The worst thing a corporation is likely to do (other than giving your data to governments) is to sell you something. That's all they want. They collect data so they can make money off you. That's not so scary to me. Governments want to put you in jail (or freeze your bank account, etc) if you get out of line.
- amelius 2y ago> The worst thing a corporation is likely to do (other than giving your data to governments) There, you said it. If we want to keep data out of the hands of wrong governments, we better keep it out of the hands of corporations.
- schiffern 2y agoThank you. If governments have more restrictions than corporations, all that will happen is that corporations will immediately spring up to exploit this arbitrage opportunity.
- Angostura 2y agoTo be fair, Apple seem to try really quite hard to keep users data out of its hands
- 05 2y agoNon E2E encrypted on by default iCloud backups say otherwise.. And remember that enabling advanced data protection just means they'll get your conversations from the other partys' iCloud backups.
- andsoitis 2y agoAt least now we know that they don’t have a backdoor yet (unless this is a charade and they already do, but that’s probably less likely).
- kernal 2y agoTell the U.K that Apple will cease operations in the country if such a law is ever passed. The voters will then decide who they value more.
- richardw 2y agoOnce you start this, every country will want the backdoor. The mere presence of it guarantees continued hacking attempts.
- sneak 2y agoWhat the UK is asking for is largely already provided to them by Apple: Apple can already read everyone’s photos and notes, and the so-called e2ee iMessage because the messages are included in the non-e2ee backups. Approximately nobody has enabled the optional e2ee for iCloud, so the five eyes have warrantless access to everything Apple has. This is mostly posturing and reinforcement of the status quo.
- fujinghg 2y agoUK here. All my data has been removed from iCloud and other public cloud services now. I cannot trust the UK government, the EU or the US government to do the right thing for my data. I also can't trust the cloud vendors to handle my data either on this basis as they are subject to the laws and as indicated recently intimately involved in political matters. The only option left is to draw a hard line and stay behind it and of course withdraw the only minuscule stick I have which is my investment in their business.
- randunel 2y agoLimit it to UK persons of interest and the Americans will be ok with it, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Complian...
- adammarples 2y agoYou can't limit an OS level encryption backdoor at the point of manufacture to some intended target later down the line. This allows mass surveillance on everybody's private files. Stop posting that stupid link on every thread it has nothing to do with this.
- randunel 2y agoIt's the same, local laws impacting foreign companies.
- ingen0s 2y agoPaywall posts should not be allowed imho - not very inclusive.
- reaperducer 2y agoPaywall posts should not be allowed imho - not very inclusive. There are posts on HN all the time about tech companies that require you to sign up and pay a fee to use their services. Should HN never discuss Cisco, or Intel, or Samsung? Why is a newspaper any different?
- nilsbunger 2y agoFor a long time, the US wanted such back doors too. When did that change?
- rstuart4133 2y agoSo they want this even after Salt Typhoon? That would be the Salt Typhoon that allowed the Chinese to take over the USA's law enforcement agencies taps, and spy on the politicians, police and probably the spy's themselves. The outcome of that was the US government to plead with everyone to use the communication apps they hadn't broken, like Signal and Whatsapp [0]? It was only two months ago, and they've forgotten already? [0] https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366616972/Government-agencies-urged-to-use-encrypted-messaging-after-Chinese-Salt-Typhoon-hack https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366616972/Government-age...