7 ms·

I'm glad I took the off-ramp from software engineering

42 points by scarface_74 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
afavour 2y ago
While I get the sentiment, you can still be a software engineer and enjoy a very, very comfortable life. It’s okay to not become a distinguished engineer. Among my friends I count teachers, office workers and lawyers. My compensation to work required ratio compares very favourably to all of them (though in the long term I suspect my lawyer friends will win there…)
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I agree. I don’t live in Atlanta anymore and I now work remotely. But these numbers jibe from what I saw when I worked there as far as what the well known Atlanta based companies were paying. Companies like Delta, Coke, Home Depot, GE (GE Transportation), etc https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/senior-software-engineer/atlanta-ga?type=bonus&view=table https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/senior-softwa... https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Software-Engineer-V-Salary#TableView https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Software-Engineer-V-Sa... It’s also around the same range I’ve seen from other major cities that aren’t on the west coast. Before anyone replies, yes I’m well aware of what BigTech and adjacent pays and I did a stint in BigTech. While I pivoted to cloud consulting specializing in app dev in 2020 and that help me get to the tip top end of “enterprise dev”, I could have lived comfortably in Atlanta off of that income
- renewedrebecca 2y ago
  Absolutely... Sometimes, it's ok to just have a job that you do. You don't always have to be moving up some ladder.
devwastaken 2y ago
the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism right time right place in a market that doesnt need to be efficient. we need to create proper regulation that requires software engineers to actually be engineers. no more collapsing bridges and finger pointing. thats the historically proven and optimal way to put engineering back on top.
- trod1234 2y ago
  > and are all nepotism Right time right place in a market Are you absolutely sure its this way and not the fact that there isn't a real market because the market was collapsed to socialism through money printing, collusion, and corruption. You really can't have economic calculation when the entities involved all cooperate regardless of profit, which naturally happens when debt financing decouples these needs. Other distortions to increase said profits in said environments such as artificially constraining supply to raise price level also create chaotic whipsaws which first strain, then destroy distribution networks, just like Atari did to video games back in the 80s, where retailers lost so much they refused to even place Nintendo on their shelves without a guarantee. The historic record is fairly light with regards to fiat money printing and actual collapses that have occurred. We know its happened, but the chaos it produces seems to remove all the important details leading up to crisis. Also, there has always been a non-fiat currency to pivot to up until now, where the underpinning global currency tied to all other currencies is about to fail. Its unprecedented in scope, and risk because failure of a currency translated to failure of production, and modern production is needed to feed half the people currently alive today. Malthus law of population and its regressive states (reversion), seem to indicate that when it fails completely, most will starve. Few seem to recognize the debt trap they find themselves placed in foolishly by previous generations who have failed to cede power (hanging on to it to their death bed), or respect the rational principles that guided their fore-bearers. We live in an age stark with evil and evil naturally begets destruction through complacency and sloth which are two sides of the same coin. If you ask yourself, is your life better, and do you have more options today than 10 years ago, and 10 years before that? Most will say, no, and no. Plot the trend and you'll see we move ever closer to ruin, goose-stepping forward, with the majority of people burning the bridges as they go. The dynamics are there to be seen for those wise enough to pay attention.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
shortrounddev2 2y ago
I'm 30 and not really sure what to do from here. I fear if I just keep doing what I'm doing eventually I'll become outdated and worthless
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I’ve been working a lot longer. But really only started focusing on my career in 2012. Get off the hedonic treadmill or never get on it. I’ve done my stint in BigTech. But I’m good with the very high end of “enterprise dev” comp. Sure, but look at what they’re doing. Are they in the same salary band, same basic job description they were in ten years ago? This described me from 2002 (5 years into my career) until 2014. My compensation was basically stagnant all those years inflation adjusted. I spent a lot of that time until around 2012-2014 as an “expert beginner”. By 2014, I knew the only way to move up and stay competitive was to lead projects, start dealing with architecture and get closer to “the business”. In 2020, I pivoted to cloud consulting specializing in app dev and was working more on strategy than tactics and became more customer focused. By “consulting” I don’t mean “staff augmentation”. I can easily see myself doing the same thing 5-10 years from now. The technology will change. But the focus on strategy and adding business value won’t I’m not saying “learn cloud”. I am saying do something that involves dealing with decision makers and helping companies use technology to create business value. Don’t be a ticket taker. https://www.seangoedecke.com/party-tricks/ https://www.seangoedecke.com/party-tricks/
ebiester 2y ago
So... that senior engineer plateau is real. And yes, it means you'll be making about the same amount of money, inflation-adjusted, after about 8-10 years, if you don't ever want to do the work to break into staff engineering. (And even if you do, you should plan on starting back at senior in a down market.) So, is it the worst thing in the world to be making $150,000 in the United States? (That's an average Senior in the US, according to Indeed. 183k in San Francisco, 143k in Durham, NC.) That's really not a bad life. No, we all don't end up in FAANG. That's okay. Yes, we're in a current downturn. That will change again, even if AI speeds up development by 20%.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I don’t see that changing in the next decade - comp going up inflation adjusted. Enterprise dev comp (where most developers work) has been suprisingly stagnate and even going down inflation adjusted. Especially with the current oversupply of developers abs remote work. Every job opening gets 600-1000 applications within the first few hours. I was looking for a job both in 2023 and 2024 and bog standard “full stack developer” jobs with AWS experience was my plan B. It’s a shit show out there and they were offering “senior developers” with those qualifications $150-$165K. The same as I was seeing in 2020 before Covid and before I pivoted to strategic cloud consulting focusing on app dev. Inflation is up 22% since then (https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=202001&year2=202412 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=202001...)
ttt3ts 2y ago
I am so happy I am not this jaded after over 20 years in software. I have never felt like I have hit a ceiling in terms of salary or skill. I still learn each and every day. I would get bored if this were not the case. Would I recommend it to everyone? Hell no but I wouldn't choose anything else.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Has your compensation been up much inflation adjusted each year or even three years over that time span? Yes, you can keep learning and you must to stay competitive. But most will plateau if they are aggressive over the first decade especially if they don’t jump to the FAANG side of comp.
Havoc 2y ago
> Yeah, we have AI here in the future. It’s pretty magical, except when it’s totally terrifying That feels so true. Can’t decide whether it is a privilege to be alive in such exciting times of changes. Or fucking terrifying
innagadadavida 2y ago
The article seems very one sided in that it only considers the “total addressable compensation size” and nothing about your interest or satisfaction that one gets with the work. I doubly my 20yo self thought about these and just jumped to software because it was cool. My parents weren’t that involved with these decisions.

42 points by scarface_74 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

While I get the sentiment, you can still be a software engineer and enjoy a very, very comfortable life. It’s okay to not become a distinguished engineer. Among my friends I count teachers, office workers and lawyers. My compensation to work required ratio compares very favourably to all of them (though in the long term I suspect my lawyer friends will win there…)

scarface_74 2y ago
I agree. I don’t live in Atlanta anymore and I now work remotely. But these numbers jibe from what I saw when I worked there as far as what the well known Atlanta based companies were paying. Companies like Delta, Coke, Home Depot, GE (GE Transportation), etc https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/senior-software-engineer/atlanta-ga?type=bonus&view=table https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/senior-softwa... https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Software-Engineer-V-Salary#TableView https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Software-Engineer-V-Sa... It’s also around the same range I’ve seen from other major cities that aren’t on the west coast. Before anyone replies, yes I’m well aware of what BigTech and adjacent pays and I did a stint in BigTech. While I pivoted to cloud consulting specializing in app dev in 2020 and that help me get to the tip top end of “enterprise dev”, I could have lived comfortably in Atlanta off of that income
renewedrebecca 2y ago
Absolutely... Sometimes, it's ok to just have a job that you do. You don't always have to be moving up some ladder.

devwastaken 2y ago

the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism right time right place in a market that doesnt need to be efficient. we need to create proper regulation that requires software engineers to actually be engineers. no more collapsing bridges and finger pointing. thats the historically proven and optimal way to put engineering back on top.

trod1234 2y ago
> and are all nepotism Right time right place in a market Are you absolutely sure its this way and not the fact that there isn't a real market because the market was collapsed to socialism through money printing, collusion, and corruption. You really can't have economic calculation when the entities involved all cooperate regardless of profit, which naturally happens when debt financing decouples these needs. Other distortions to increase said profits in said environments such as artificially constraining supply to raise price level also create chaotic whipsaws which first strain, then destroy distribution networks, just like Atari did to video games back in the 80s, where retailers lost so much they refused to even place Nintendo on their shelves without a guarantee. The historic record is fairly light with regards to fiat money printing and actual collapses that have occurred. We know its happened, but the chaos it produces seems to remove all the important details leading up to crisis. Also, there has always been a non-fiat currency to pivot to up until now, where the underpinning global currency tied to all other currencies is about to fail. Its unprecedented in scope, and risk because failure of a currency translated to failure of production, and modern production is needed to feed half the people currently alive today. Malthus law of population and its regressive states (reversion), seem to indicate that when it fails completely, most will starve. Few seem to recognize the debt trap they find themselves placed in foolishly by previous generations who have failed to cede power (hanging on to it to their death bed), or respect the rational principles that guided their fore-bearers. We live in an age stark with evil and evil naturally begets destruction through complacency and sloth which are two sides of the same coin. If you ask yourself, is your life better, and do you have more options today than 10 years ago, and 10 years before that? Most will say, no, and no. Plot the trend and you'll see we move ever closer to ruin, goose-stepping forward, with the majority of people burning the bridges as they go. The dynamics are there to be seen for those wise enough to pay attention.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

shortrounddev2 2y ago

I'm 30 and not really sure what to do from here. I fear if I just keep doing what I'm doing eventually I'll become outdated and worthless

scarface_74 2y ago
I’ve been working a lot longer. But really only started focusing on my career in 2012. Get off the hedonic treadmill or never get on it. I’ve done my stint in BigTech. But I’m good with the very high end of “enterprise dev” comp. Sure, but look at what they’re doing. Are they in the same salary band, same basic job description they were in ten years ago? This described me from 2002 (5 years into my career) until 2014. My compensation was basically stagnant all those years inflation adjusted. I spent a lot of that time until around 2012-2014 as an “expert beginner”. By 2014, I knew the only way to move up and stay competitive was to lead projects, start dealing with architecture and get closer to “the business”. In 2020, I pivoted to cloud consulting specializing in app dev and was working more on strategy than tactics and became more customer focused. By “consulting” I don’t mean “staff augmentation”. I can easily see myself doing the same thing 5-10 years from now. The technology will change. But the focus on strategy and adding business value won’t I’m not saying “learn cloud”. I am saying do something that involves dealing with decision makers and helping companies use technology to create business value. Don’t be a ticket taker. https://www.seangoedecke.com/party-tricks/ https://www.seangoedecke.com/party-tricks/

ebiester 2y ago

So... that senior engineer plateau is real. And yes, it means you'll be making about the same amount of money, inflation-adjusted, after about 8-10 years, if you don't ever want to do the work to break into staff engineering. (And even if you do, you should plan on starting back at senior in a down market.) So, is it the worst thing in the world to be making $150,000 in the United States? (That's an average Senior in the US, according to Indeed. 183k in San Francisco, 143k in Durham, NC.) That's really not a bad life. No, we all don't end up in FAANG. That's okay. Yes, we're in a current downturn. That will change again, even if AI speeds up development by 20%.

scarface_74 2y ago
I don’t see that changing in the next decade - comp going up inflation adjusted. Enterprise dev comp (where most developers work) has been suprisingly stagnate and even going down inflation adjusted. Especially with the current oversupply of developers abs remote work. Every job opening gets 600-1000 applications within the first few hours. I was looking for a job both in 2023 and 2024 and bog standard “full stack developer” jobs with AWS experience was my plan B. It’s a shit show out there and they were offering “senior developers” with those qualifications $150-$165K. The same as I was seeing in 2020 before Covid and before I pivoted to strategic cloud consulting focusing on app dev. Inflation is up 22% since then (https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=202001&year2=202412 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=202001...)

ttt3ts 2y ago

I am so happy I am not this jaded after over 20 years in software. I have never felt like I have hit a ceiling in terms of salary or skill. I still learn each and every day. I would get bored if this were not the case. Would I recommend it to everyone? Hell no but I wouldn't choose anything else.

scarface_74 2y ago
Has your compensation been up much inflation adjusted each year or even three years over that time span? Yes, you can keep learning and you must to stay competitive. But most will plateau if they are aggressive over the first decade especially if they don’t jump to the FAANG side of comp.

Havoc 2y ago

> Yeah, we have AI here in the future. It’s pretty magical, except when it’s totally terrifying That feels so true. Can’t decide whether it is a privilege to be alive in such exciting times of changes. Or fucking terrifying

innagadadavida 2y ago

The article seems very one sided in that it only considers the “total addressable compensation size” and nothing about your interest or satisfaction that one gets with the work. I doubly my 20yo self thought about these and just jumped to software because it was cool. My parents weren’t that involved with these decisions.