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In this thread: An alarming number of people somehow perplexed by the concept of sovereign nations and local laws.

pembrook 2y ago
Seems good that people would discuss and make value judgements on said policy. Europeans seem to have no trouble loudly voicing their opinion on American law, and I don't see Americans getting thin skin about it. Why should we operate under the assumption any policy implemented by any politician (German or otherwise) is inherently good by default? Specifically in the case of Germany, we have many recent and historical examples of not great ideas being implemented... Might be good to be willing to question these things instead of retorting "THE LAW IS THE LAW" and bowing to the overlords with the rubber stamps, no?
- jstummbillig 2y ago
  I have no objections, but I don't see how it relates to my comment.
- cmdli 2y ago
  People here aren't criticizing the policy, but the very idea that Germany is allowed to make said policy. Americans in this thread are absolutely getting thin skin about the idea that a US company has to follow German laws.
  - diggan 2y ago
    This sentiment been around for seemingly forever. I can still remember Americans arguing against AirBnb and Uber being banned for not following laws around the country, and somehow being surprised that they got fines for it.
    - pembrook 2y ago
      Thinking a law is dumb is not the same thing as “being surprised that there are laws.” The whole point of the Uber and Airbnb strategy was to force each market to re-evaluate whether long-standing laws (protecting special interests like the taxi lobby) were actually desirable by bringing legal challenges to them in each market after already winning the support of the people. They were largely successful at this. Most markets democratically voted to change previous laws. I know for people on the spectrum the idea of rules brings lots of comfort, but you do realize the whole point of a democracy is that rules can be debated and changed?
- computerthings 2y ago
  > Why should we operate under the assumption any policy implemented by any politician (German or otherwise) is inherently good by default? That's not loudly voicing an opinion. Nobody said you should "operate under the assumption". If you have a criticism to make, make it. > Specifically in the case of Germany, we have many recent and historical examples of not great ideas being implemented... And we have many recent and historical examples of Germany taking human rights more seriously after WW2 than people who haven't had their whole continent ravaged by war in living memory can even fathom. That you talk of "overlords with rubber stamps" to project the ambition for private corporations to have ZERO accountability just shows me that that you live on a wholly other planet than Germans do, and that you're playing to an American audience. These laws aren't there to please non-German companies, they are here to protect Germans.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Europeans seem to have no trouble loudly voicing their opinion on American law, and I don't see Americans getting thin skin about it. That's not my experience. Try arguing in favor of European hate speech laws, healthcare, consumer protection regulations, rent control, social democracy or anything else at odds with libertarianism and you'll get heavily downvoted both here and on US-centric subreddits. If there is one thing very common among Americans, it is the belief of "American exceptionalism" despite more than enough evidence that whatever Americans are doing is just outright Not Working At F...ing All.
  - AlchemistCamp 2y ago
    Sure, plenty of Americans will downvote your bad ideas on HN, but you won’t generally find them discussing how bad they think xyz thing in Europe on a weekly basis. If they mention Europe at all, it will probably be in the context of a vacation someone took or is planning. The thing is most Americans just don’t think much about Europe at all. Outside of the UK, I saw far more films from Hong Kong or Japan in normal movie theaters while growing up than all of Europe combined. It might be different for someone on the east coast but for most Americans, the EU just doesn’t have much impact culturally or in business either.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > The thing is most Americans just don’t think much about Europe at all. Well they don't even know what's out there. 40% of Americans never left the US, 11% never even the state they were born in [1]. And even if you travel to another state, culturally it will be pretty similar to where you came from - same language, same TV/radio stations, same car dependence, same politics. In contrast, in Europe... pretty much anywhere outside of Russia only needs about two to three hours worth of car drive and you're in a country where you don't know anything, in the Balkans you won't even be able to read because Serbs write in Cyrillic, and on the eastern border you can even play warzone tourist if you don't mind the risk of getting arrested or shot (or you can sign up for a combat tour with the Foreign Legion). Every one of our countries does stuff differently and you have so many opportunities of learning, it is mind blowing sometimes. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-o...
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
Welcome to SV/HN. You must allow digital colonists to ruin your society.
gweinberg 2y ago
I have yet to see anyone argue that twitter has a right to operate in Germany in defiance of German laws. I have seen people in other threads argue that, rather than comply with Chinese laws, american companies should cease to to business in China.
stackedinserter 2y ago
Germany is not a sovereign nation.
- bmicraft 2y ago
  By most accepted definitions you're wrong. Now go away troll.
  - stackedinserter 2y ago
    Britannica > sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. Merriam-Webster > a: supreme power especially over a body politic > b: freedom from external control : autonomy > c: controlling influence Wikipedia > Sovereignty can generally be defined as supreme authority.[1][2][3] Sovereignty entails hierarchy within a state as well as external autonomy for states.[4] In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people and to change existing laws. None of these match Germany. Maybe you have your own one that does, and I'm fine with that.
    - bmicraft 2y ago
      EU law isn't above national law. Yes as a member each country has to implement EU laws if they want to be a member, but they're also free to just leave. That's like saying you're not free after you've entered a shopping mall and have to obey their house rules.
      - stackedinserter 2y ago
        Since you (not me) brought EU up: what are EU laws that Germany doesn't follow?
        bmicraft 2y ago
        Did you actually read past the first sentence? That question is irrelevant.
niemandhier 2y ago
In the past the US government stepped in multiple times to protect the interests of big tech against European legislation. I guess people became used to assuming non American laws would not matter and I cannot blame them, it really looked like that. The interesting point about trump is, that he is burning lots of “threat potential”: If I announce tariffs and withdrawal of military cooperation anyways I run out of threats at some point.

Seems good that people would discuss and make value judgements on said policy. Europeans seem to have no trouble loudly voicing their opinion on American law, and I don't see Americans getting thin skin about it. Why should we operate under the assumption any policy implemented by any politician (German or otherwise) is inherently good by default? Specifically in the case of Germany, we have many recent and historical examples of not great ideas being implemented... Might be good to be willing to question these things instead of retorting "THE LAW IS THE LAW" and bowing to the overlords with the rubber stamps, no?

jstummbillig 2y ago
I have no objections, but I don't see how it relates to my comment.
cmdli 2y ago
People here aren't criticizing the policy, but the very idea that Germany is allowed to make said policy. Americans in this thread are absolutely getting thin skin about the idea that a US company has to follow German laws.
- diggan 2y ago
  This sentiment been around for seemingly forever. I can still remember Americans arguing against AirBnb and Uber being banned for not following laws around the country, and somehow being surprised that they got fines for it.
  - pembrook 2y ago
    Thinking a law is dumb is not the same thing as “being surprised that there are laws.” The whole point of the Uber and Airbnb strategy was to force each market to re-evaluate whether long-standing laws (protecting special interests like the taxi lobby) were actually desirable by bringing legal challenges to them in each market after already winning the support of the people. They were largely successful at this. Most markets democratically voted to change previous laws. I know for people on the spectrum the idea of rules brings lots of comfort, but you do realize the whole point of a democracy is that rules can be debated and changed?
computerthings 2y ago
> Why should we operate under the assumption any policy implemented by any politician (German or otherwise) is inherently good by default? That's not loudly voicing an opinion. Nobody said you should "operate under the assumption". If you have a criticism to make, make it. > Specifically in the case of Germany, we have many recent and historical examples of not great ideas being implemented... And we have many recent and historical examples of Germany taking human rights more seriously after WW2 than people who haven't had their whole continent ravaged by war in living memory can even fathom. That you talk of "overlords with rubber stamps" to project the ambition for private corporations to have ZERO accountability just shows me that that you live on a wholly other planet than Germans do, and that you're playing to an American audience. These laws aren't there to please non-German companies, they are here to protect Germans.
mschuster91 2y ago
> Europeans seem to have no trouble loudly voicing their opinion on American law, and I don't see Americans getting thin skin about it. That's not my experience. Try arguing in favor of European hate speech laws, healthcare, consumer protection regulations, rent control, social democracy or anything else at odds with libertarianism and you'll get heavily downvoted both here and on US-centric subreddits. If there is one thing very common among Americans, it is the belief of "American exceptionalism" despite more than enough evidence that whatever Americans are doing is just outright Not Working At F...ing All.
- AlchemistCamp 2y ago
  Sure, plenty of Americans will downvote your bad ideas on HN, but you won’t generally find them discussing how bad they think xyz thing in Europe on a weekly basis. If they mention Europe at all, it will probably be in the context of a vacation someone took or is planning. The thing is most Americans just don’t think much about Europe at all. Outside of the UK, I saw far more films from Hong Kong or Japan in normal movie theaters while growing up than all of Europe combined. It might be different for someone on the east coast but for most Americans, the EU just doesn’t have much impact culturally or in business either.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > The thing is most Americans just don’t think much about Europe at all. Well they don't even know what's out there. 40% of Americans never left the US, 11% never even the state they were born in [1]. And even if you travel to another state, culturally it will be pretty similar to where you came from - same language, same TV/radio stations, same car dependence, same politics. In contrast, in Europe... pretty much anywhere outside of Russia only needs about two to three hours worth of car drive and you're in a country where you don't know anything, in the Balkans you won't even be able to read because Serbs write in Cyrillic, and on the eastern border you can even play warzone tourist if you don't mind the risk of getting arrested or shot (or you can sign up for a combat tour with the Foreign Legion). Every one of our countries does stuff differently and you have so many opportunities of learning, it is mind blowing sometimes. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-of-americans-who-never-traveled-beyond-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane/2019/05/02/percentage-o...

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

Welcome to SV/HN. You must allow digital colonists to ruin your society.

gweinberg 2y ago

I have yet to see anyone argue that twitter has a right to operate in Germany in defiance of German laws. I have seen people in other threads argue that, rather than comply with Chinese laws, american companies should cease to to business in China.

stackedinserter 2y ago

Germany is not a sovereign nation.

bmicraft 2y ago
By most accepted definitions you're wrong. Now go away troll.
- stackedinserter 2y ago
  Britannica > sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. Merriam-Webster > a: supreme power especially over a body politic > b: freedom from external control : autonomy > c: controlling influence Wikipedia > Sovereignty can generally be defined as supreme authority.[1][2][3] Sovereignty entails hierarchy within a state as well as external autonomy for states.[4] In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people and to change existing laws. None of these match Germany. Maybe you have your own one that does, and I'm fine with that.
  - bmicraft 2y ago
    EU law isn't above national law. Yes as a member each country has to implement EU laws if they want to be a member, but they're also free to just leave. That's like saying you're not free after you've entered a shopping mall and have to obey their house rules.
    - stackedinserter 2y ago
      Since you (not me) brought EU up: what are EU laws that Germany doesn't follow?
      - bmicraft 2y ago
        Did you actually read past the first sentence? That question is irrelevant.

niemandhier 2y ago

In the past the US government stepped in multiple times to protect the interests of big tech against European legislation. I guess people became used to assuming non American laws would not matter and I cannot blame them, it really looked like that. The interesting point about trump is, that he is burning lots of “threat potential”: If I announce tariffs and withdrawal of military cooperation anyways I run out of threats at some point.