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147 reported crimes in a month in NYC's very busy subway. That's it. Don't let social media fool you. The US is not becoming a crime ridden cesspool, the only
by throwaway519 2y ago
147 reported crimes in a month in NYC's very busy subway. That's it.
Don't let social media fool you. The US is not becoming a crime ridden cesspool, the only stinking I smell is from scaremongers that profit from your fear.
- bogantech 2y agoAnd only one of them was a person being burnt to death
- multiplegeorges 2y agoThis happens in cars very often. Surely you apply the same rigorous analysis to driving as you did to this, correct?
- fullshark 2y agoTalk about a false equivalence
- ceejayoz 2y agoPeople die horribly - including the specific example of "being burnt to death" - in both methods of getting places, in fairly low numbers per million passenger miles.
- fullshark 2y agoSo we shouldn’t be concerned about random subway murders cause of car accidents? What?
- ceejayoz 2y agoWe should weigh the usefulness and the relative frequencies of dying, not singular anecdotes. It’s not as if there has never been a murder in a car.
- kouru225 2y agoIf you’re gonna spend your time solving a problem, are you gonna try to solve: 1) the 10 murders a year using a mode of transportation that sees 2 million daily users 2) the 250 murders a year using a mode of transportation that sees 1 million daily users ??? Cars are dangerous and they cause crime.
- drawkward 2y agoWhereas I agree with the general thrust of your point, I am not sure cars cause crime. Perhaps their drivers do; perhaps the cars are accessories. But the cars are not causing the crime.
- kouru225 2y agoIf the mode of travel inherently results in a high rate of death and injury, then what’s the difference? We call it a crime if someone does it to another person, but it’s just an accident if cars keep doing it over and over again?
- drawkward 2y agoThe justice system does not work on cars, no matter how guilty you allege they are. People, on the other hand...
- ceejayoz 2y agoThere's almost certainly a case like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U... ("United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency") and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Article_Consisting_of_50,000_Cardboard_Boxes_More_or_Less,_Each_Containing_One_Pair_of_Clacker_Balls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Article_Consi... ("United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls") for a car. edit: Ah, here we go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_1958_Plymouth_Sedan_v._Pennsylvania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_1958_Plymouth_Sedan_v._Pen... Or even cats in cars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_v._Fifteen_Impounded_Cats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_v._Fifteen_Impoun... More seriously, though, I'd very much like to see civil liability for the car manufacturers for deliberately making cars bigger and more dangerous for pedestrians over the last few decades. (https://www.npr.org/2024/12/10/nx-s1-5222277/taller-vehicles-are-more-dangerous-to-pedestrians-even-at-low-speeds-research-finds https://www.npr.org/2024/12/10/nx-s1-5222277/taller-vehicles...) > It's the latest study to find that taller vehicles are more dangerous for pedestrians. The majority of vehicles sold in the U.S. are now SUVs and light trucks, which can have front ends that are often 40 inches or taller. Safety advocates say that's one reason why pedestrian fatalities are up more than 75% since reaching their lowest point in 2009.
- roywiggins 2y agoPeople are murdered by road rage-ing drivers relatively frequently. They rarely make national news though. https://everytownresearch.org/road-rage-shootings-remain-alarmingly-high/ https://everytownresearch.org/road-rage-shootings-remain-ala... (the link only counts shootings; there are surely more intentional homicides-by- and homicides-while driving)
- barbazoo 2y agoIt was murder, wasn’t it?
- ceejayoz 2y agoMurders happen on and off the subway. Some in cars! Some using cars! Most are horrible. Plenty include fire. More people take the subway each day than total residents of some entire states. No one says “avoid Wyoming” over one murder, but it only has 500k people. The subway has millions.
- Paul-Craft 2y agoI can think of way better reasons to avoid Wyoming.
- yablak 2y agoBut...but..but... J hole!
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoThere's plenty of people that die because of cost cutting/saving a buck with vehicles/roads. Just those intentional... sorry, I mean, acceptable deaths are just fine with society.
- xnyan 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murders_by_motor_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Murders_by_motor_vehi...
- Paul-Craft 2y agoThat seems to have been going around for, oh, the past 47 minutes or so.
- drawkward 2y agoSafer than driving, you say?
- maplant 2y agoI'm pretty sure one of the properties of cars is that they can catch on fire (due to all that gasoline, which is famously flammable), so I don't think you should start driving if you want to avoid burning to death
- eru 2y agoCars are mostly dangerous to other people, less so to the people inside of them. Especially at inner-city speeds. (Well, at least when you like at direct injury. People inside the cars might have long running health effects from insufficient exercise.)
- jakelazaroff 2y agoEven as a car occupant, you’re still significantly likelier to die in a crash than you are riding the subway. In NYC — but also basically anywhere else, at any time of day.
- janalsncm 2y agoChance of being in a car accident on the train is zero. Chance of being the victim of a crime is low but not zero.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Larrikin 2y agoThis person enjoys discussing ML, according to their post history. Either they are stupid, actually talking out their butt and should be no where near a mathematical discussion or they are purposely using their ethical statistics class to be disingenuous and their "conclusions" should be thrown out.
- Invictus0 2y agoAnd only one of them was a person being sparta-kicked onto the tracks
- orionsbelt 2y agoAnd only one of them was a young woman having her face randomly shoved into the side of an arriving train rendering her a quadriplegic.
- ceejayoz 2y agoA scenario that has never occurred a) outside the subway or b) outside NYC, yes?
- janalsncm 2y agoThis is true unfortunately. https://apnews.com/article/new-york-subway-woman-fire-c946bb951f67116e1bfb399f99ab5062 https://apnews.com/article/new-york-subway-woman-fire-c946bb... If there is a “bright” side it’s that they caught the guy almost immediately because of cameras. It will take some time, but my hope is that eventually criminals will understand that cameras now make escaping from a crime impossible. Solve rate goes up -> crime rate goes down -> solve rate goes up even more.
- bennettnate5 2y agoI'm not sure someone intent on burning a person to death in public is going to be very deterred by the knowledge that cameras are recording their acts.
- SoftTalker 2y agoIn fact they may encourage him.
- cowhow 2y agoI don't have stats, but I strongly suspect the set of NYC people aiming to burn others to death in public (and ruin their own lives in the process) is quite small. The presence of cameras is almost certainly a net positive for reducing crime
- saghm 2y agoYes, and the presence of cameras would presumably mean that if the parent commenter's prediction comes true, the crime rate would go down even more as crimes of opportunity vanish and crimes from people who are disturbed enough to do things like that are still quite rare.
- kennysoona 2y ago> eventually criminals will understand that cameras now make escaping from a crime impossible. In NYC most of the time the cameras are such low resolution that when they post a photo of someone wanted for a crime it's impossible to make them out at all.
- h0l0cube 2y agoAre you sure it wasn't a strawman?
- kouru225 2y agoHm I wonder if that had anything to do with the subway itself? Is it possible that a crazy person could burn someone alive in any location?
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoGenerally the NYC subway puts you into closer contact with crazy people than you would get normally. It’s like the bus here in Seattle and Link train, a lot of people don’t ride them because they don’t feel safe with all crazy people riding them…only a few people get killed by these people a year but it still discourages ridership. (Note that neither Seattle nor NYC are known for homicide, so murders like these are really notable)
- kouru225 2y agoAnd yet the subway is safer in NYC than any other mode of travel. So it turns out that everyone's fear of each other is not only stupid, but actively harmful
- roywiggins 2y agoand, almost more importantly, NYC could not exist as it does without public transit. It would simply not function. The alternative to NYC having mass transit is not "everyone gets to drive to Manhattan in their cars."
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoYes, but still a bit less crazies murdering people will always be nice and appreciated. Mobile homeless sheltering isn’t sustainable if you want other people to use transit.
- philistine 2y agoWe don't just have a bit less crazies when you compare with the 70s, 80s, or even the 90s. We flattened crime.
- gcapu 2y agoThere's people burned to death all over the US. Most of them were murdered by negligent road engineers.
- throw0101d 2y ago> And only one of them was a person being burnt to death Flying is getting safer and safer… only one recent crash at Ronald Regain airport (KDCA).
- ls612 2y agoHow many were reported in January 2019?
- psychlops 2y agoI can only find back to 2020 when there were 136. https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/pr006/new-york-city-crime-continues-decline-1-700-fewer-major-crimes-january-2025 https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/pr006/new-york-city-crime...
- refurb 2y agoIf it’s anything like SF most crime goes unreported. Not to mention the knock on effect. A single criminal incident can result in thousands of people choosing not to use public transport. But you are right, the crime aspect is overblown in places like NYC.
- AyyEye 2y agoThe last three times I called the police they made it clear they were only going to take a report so I could give it to insurance. One time the burglar was still inside (we let the police know this) and we watched the cop checked the door (locked) and left. We then watched the burglar walk into the room with the DVR and our cameras went out. The next day the dvr was gone so we couldn't even hold the cops accountable. Another time we put up wanted posters, a couple of people ID'd him (they told us where he was squatting but didn't know his name) after a week of calls the cops finally go to check it out but by that point he'd left. Anyway that's a long way of saying unless a third party needs a police report I don't bother wasting my time reporting anything.
- catlikesshrimp 2y ago"We then watched the burglar walk into the room with the DVR and our cameras went out" I must congratulate you on not using a cloud service for registering your surveillance videos. On the DVR note, mine is on the ceiling above a TV. Cables come down a short height to the TV. "One time the burglar was still inside (we let the police know this) and we watched the cop checked the door (locked) and left" Didn't the police take your key to unlock the door?
- AyyEye 2y ago> I must congratulate you on not using a cloud service for registering your surveillance videos. On the DVR note, mine is on the ceiling above a TV. Cables come down a short height to the TV. This predated anything like that. I had to build the system myself, complete with analog cameras and a capture card (or two?) rated in frames per second. After that we put the DVR in the ceiling too. For a later break in they cut the power and internet cables. Had backup power but didn't think about internet. Got a cell backup after that, but it was never needed. Shortly after that this jerk hit some guys store for the third time and the owner had been sleeping inside with a pistol. Didn't shoot him but pistol whipped him and roughed him up until the cops showed up. No more break-ins in our neighborhood and the urgent care doctors a few doors down didn't have the copper stolen from their air conditioner ever again. > Didn't the police take your key to unlock the door? No, we weren't there to help. We called 911 back to tell them the burglar was still inside but the cop had determined 'there was no signs of forced entry' so he left. We were a bt over an hour away with family at the time and wanted them to stay while we drove over but he had already made his determination that there was nothing more he could do, I guess.
- paulpauper 2y agoYup, it's unpopular to say, but American style policing works through vigilance, responsiveness, and deterrence. When academics and pundits argue that the 'Nordic model' or other European style of policing and criminal justice system is better, they ignore demographic differences , unreported crime, and a those countries having a higher tolerance for crime. The way you lower crime is to have less tolerance for it ,and prosecute it when it happens. This is not to say it's perfect, but the counterfactual is much worse.
- ipaddr 2y agoAmerica is more acceptance of crime and accepts more excuses and is celebrated in media/tv/movies. America over reacts to crime where law enforcement become people committing a new crime and people end up in jail for life. But this standard isn't applied equally with those closer to power/money having free rein and others powerless/poorer getting examples made of them.
- atkailash 2y agoIt wasn’t even cops that caught people and you think increased presence prevented crime? How them boots taste? Half the time they’re not looking at anyone but chatting in a circle. And the NG at the stations are even more useless (I say this as a former NG member) for this And time and time again it’s been shown the way to prevent crime is social services eliminating the drivers of crime, not the punitive reactive scenario you’re describing
- latentcall 2y ago[flagged]
- paulpauper 2y agoi said controlling for demographics.
- notjoemama 2y ago> down from 231 last year I have no idea what you’re talking about. Oh wait, are you referring to the news media? Noted I guess. I’ve seen scaremongering on both sides, especially when dealing with change. Anyway, for context, because the first thing I wondered that the linked article completely delivered on was, out of how many passengers? TY: 3,834,806 vs. LY: 3,303,727 and that’s a single days ridership in the city. That’s more than the population of many states. While it’s good news that the number of crimes decreased from 231 to 147, isn’t it also impressive that the number is so low considering the amount of people that take the subway? I’m frankly impressed with the safety of the New York subway system. Brilliant work by everyone involved. I had no idea it was that good, not being exposed to that volume, I simply didn’t have a frame of reference. Just wow.
- kouru225 2y agoIt’s genuinely incredible how safe the nyc subways are. The only thing more incredible is the insane propaganda effort that’s been pushed for half a century to slander the subways and the city itself.
- mc32 2y agoHaven’t they put cops on the subway passenger cars of late?
- yieldcrv 2y agoI look at those subway crime videos, someone gets into a fight and a bystander pulls a weapon joining the attack and everyone scrambles out the car. Someone’s lit on fire and everyone scrambles. Crime and victim count: 2 When they start counting the mental health toll as victims too, NYC’s subway stats will be cooked. The numbers will rise by 50x and match what everyone already perceives
- tootie 2y agoI've lived in NYC for 30 years and ridden the subway thousands of times going back to the last peak in crime in the 90s. I've never witnessed a real crime or seen someone brandish a weapon. I know a few people who have been near or been victimized to a small degree. None had anything like PTSD. I know several people who have died or suffered serious injuries in car crashes.
- madebylaw 2y agoI lived in NYC < 7 years and saw all kinds of crimes. Fistfights, public urination, I’ve been threatened with a box cutter, multiple female friends groped.
- yieldcrv 2y agoa NYer espousing normalized invalidation of everyone else in the blast radius, as reflected in NYC’s safety statistics check, check and check
- senordevnyc 2y agoDo you live in NYC? I do, and I think what the person you’re responding to is pointing out is that watching social media videos of crimes in NYC gives you a wildly distorted perspective on what it feels like to live here. Yes, crime is a problem, just like in every single city in the world. But basically no one that I know has been victimized or even been a witness to the kinds of crimes you’re talking about. It’s a huge city, and these incidents are statistically rare. That said, we are all traumatized and have PTSD, but it’s over the ridiculous cost of living :)
- currymj 2y agowhile the NYC subway is indeed quite safe, it's also undeniably true that there are a lot of stinking smells.
- ants_everywhere 2y agoThe elevators smell less like urine than they used to. I consider that a major improvement.
- wright-goes 2y ago[dead]
- jfengel 2y agoI see a massive increase in some kinds of crime every day, in newspapers and here on HN. And nobody seems to be able to do anything about it.
- lr4444lr 2y agoThat's about 1 out of every 4 stations getting hit once a month with something. Millions of people take the subway almost daily. Sounds like the chances of being close enough to witness a crime, even if not directly victimized, are pretty high. Then you have situations like the Jordan Neely episode which, though perhaps not "reported crimes", terrorize an entire car full of people.
- tehwebguy 2y agoSo entering the subway gives you a 1 in 4 chance of being at a station that had one crime reported that month. I’m shaking in my boots here! I’d guess this is astronomically lower than the chances of witnessing 100 car drivers violating the law on your way to work.
- throw__away7391 2y agoIn reality the number is far higher than that, it just doesn’t get reported. On any given ride you have a pretty high likelihood of have “an incident” with a deranged member of the public, and your odds skyrocket if you’re a woman. Multiple women I know get a random weirdo trying to corner them in the subway or follow them at least once a week. None of this gets reported.
- jakelazaroff 2y agoFor the people who don’t live in NYC: “incident with a deranged member of the public” is usually code for “sharing space with a homeless person minding their own business”. That is (sadly) not infrequent. Incidents in which you’re actually in danger are vanishingly rare.
- senordevnyc 2y agoSince you’re claiming the data is false and pointing to vague anecdotes: I’ve lived in NYC for more than a decade, and this is total bullshit. Yes, what you’re saying does happen, but very rarely in my experience.
- throw__away7391 2y ago
- bagels 2y agoThere have to be at least 147 gate jumpers every morning. There's probably a delta between crime and reported crime that is pretty large.
- wonnage 2y agoyou gonna count speeding too
- add-sub-mul-div 2y agoYeah why does crime only count when it's poor person coded.
- bagels 2y agoNot sure how speeding relates to the subway?
- jakelazaroff 2y agoThey’re saying that if we compare the subway to driving, both the amount of lawbreakers and the ratio of actual crimes to reported crimes are far larger. Only a small fraction of subway riders jump the turnstile, whereas just about everyone speeds.
- throw0101d 2y ago> you gonna count speeding too Pushing/running red lights. Rolling stops. Not signalling.
- nla 2y ago12 years ago, I remember this very well. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/nypd-report-confirms-manipulation-of-crime-stats-idUSBRE828187/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/nypd-report-confirm...
- zaphirplane 2y agoOn a subway I smell a lot more
- edm0nd 2y agoSociety is not going off the rails nor a crime ridden cesspool. It's thriving and doing well. We just seem drawn to when it does go off the rails and notice it more imo.
- rayiner 2y agoHow much of that is because the public has stopped reporting crimes because the city doesn’t do anything about them? https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/01/nyregion/subway-violence-stubbornly-defies-all-efforts-to-quell-it.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/01/nyregion/subway-violence-... On December 22 the same day that woman was burned alive, a man was also stabbed to death. Another two stabbing New Year’s Day. There were 10 murders on the subway in 2024, up from 3 in 2019. People were pushed onto the tracks 25 times in 2024. How many people should get pushed onto the tracks before it’s okay to complain?
- jakelazaroff 2y agoYou really think the police don’t know when someone gets pushed onto the tracks? Anyway: > There were 10 murders on the subway in 2024, up from 3 in 2019. People were pushed onto the tracks 25 times in 2024. Meanwhile, car crashes killed 253 people in 2024 — 10× the number of track pushings and 25× the number of subway murders, according to your data. People appeal to emotion with lurid stories like the woman burned alive because the whole “the subway is dangerous!” narrative falls apart when you actually look at the data (and frankly when you actually ride it).
- nla 2y agoNot always! If the suspect doesn't stay on scene and the victim goes to the hospital but declines to prosecute, which MOST people do in NYC, like magic, there is no crime committed. You have to love all the misguided stats from everyone OUTSIDE NYC. Go do a ride alone with CA, let us know how well you sleep after a full tour.
- jakelazaroff 2y agoMeanwhile, I’m sure there are absolutely no hit-and-runs in NYC. Every time a pedestrian gets injured, the police diligently log and investigate it. You’re a cop, right? You should start by taking a look at the magical crime-free zone right in front of your precinct, where your car can block a fire hydrant or the sidewalk, and parking tickets don’t exist.