10 ms·

I’m a scientist currently on an NSF grant. I am certainly poking around other countries to see what’s out there, and I’m not the only one. A lot of scientists

I’m a scientist currently on an NSF grant. I am certainly poking around other countries to see what’s out there, and I’m not the only one. A lot of scientists (at least in my field, computational chemistry) have decent skills that are transferrable to other areas. So I expect quite a few to move on.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
qwe----3 2y ago
Good luck getting 500k+ grants in other countries. If you leave there won't be a shortage of postdocs looking for a new tenure track position.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Yeah that's kind of the thing. I think a lot of these guys and gals are fooling themselves with the whole, "find another country" thing. There is no other country that is A) doing research at these levels, B) Flush with cash, and C) needs you because they don't have a population that produces the necessary thinkers. That's basically only the US.
  - bad_haircut72 2y ago
    Is the USA flush with cash? Last I checked they were deep in debt and its getting worse
    - lanstin 2y ago
      I think GDP/economic output/labor productivity continues to rise briskly. The government accounts are in debt because people in the US refuse to consistently vote for [people advocating] high enough taxes. But we could tax more (still less than Europe) and get balanced budget.
      - scarab92 2y ago
        Higher taxes do genuinely restrict economic growth, so it's not like raising taxes is a magic bullet. Personally, I think there is plenty of grift and wasteful expenditure we could look at addressing first, especially within the healthcare and defense portfolios.
        lanstin 2y ago
        Not as much as having insufficient resources dedicated to the education of the young hurts economic growth (long term). I agree not using the world proven efficient healthcare strategy of universal coverage is pretty stupid economically, as is spending a trillion USD per annum on the military. But we are so rich these mistakes can be absorbed for surprisingly long.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      The US controls its currency and has no mandate for a balanced budget. So yes, the US is very flush with cash
      - bawolff 2y ago
        And importantly enjoys a privleged position in the world economy that enables them to run these types of long term deficits with minimal negative consequences. Something which might shift over the coming decades.
    - astrange 2y ago
      Those are the same thing. Higher public debt means there's more private credit available.
    - impossiblefork 2y ago
      Yes, but when you borrow, you have money in your hands. US firms are also very highly priced relative to their profits when compared to firms elsewhere. So while things are probably not quite sensible in the US there's still money.
  - araes 2y ago
    The European research budget is not insignificant. Horizon Europe 2021-2027 is the current vehicle that much of the funding is going through (European Research Council [ERC] being one of the most well known parts). It has a budget for the time-frame (all years) of EUR 96,899,000,000. [1] Of that, the ERC has EUR 16B [2], Digital, Industry and Space has ~EUR 15B, Climate, Energy and Mobility has ~EUR 15B, and several other sub-groups have smaller amounts. Those then work with the country level organizations of Science Europe, and those together each spend about EUR 25B each year. [3] It's not insignificant. I tend to pay attention to space, and lately almost all there's been is European achievements in telescopes and astronomy. [1] Horizon Europe, https://www.ffg.at/sites/default/files/downloads/HorizonEuropeBudget.pdf https://www.ffg.at/sites/default/files/downloads/HorizonEuro... [2] ERC, https://erc.europa.eu/about-erc/erc-glance https://erc.europa.eu/about-erc/erc-glance [3] Science Europe RFOs, https://www.scienceeurope.org/about-us/members/?type=Research%20Funding%20Organisation%20(RFO) https://www.scienceeurope.org/about-us/members/?type=Researc...
    - sseagull 2y ago
      Thanks for the numbers! For comparison, the NSF budget is about $8 billion. DOE Office of Science is about the same. NIH is $45 billion (Also, compare that with the profit of large tech companies)
      - mdhb 2y ago
        That isn’t going to be anything even close to accurate before the week is over and that is kind of the entire point here.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- anonylizard 2y ago
  This, the US is the country most willing to make daring bets on innovation. Europe will not spend even 0.1% of its pension/welfare fund on big research bets. The private investors their will only want real estate investments, not fancy wancy "VC". Young talent will flow one way from other countries to the US, because they've already seen what the grass is like on their side.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    > the US is the country most willing to make daring bets on innovation. … a critical tool of which we’re currently dismantling…
  - araes 2y ago
    If the sentiment upthread holds, and large numbers of US academics move overseas, then relatively shortly, Europe may shift towards being more willing to make big research bets. The population shift introduces new ideas, new perspectives, new ways of operating research, new connections towards funding and money, new views on what big bets even means. The influx of foreign scientists and academics into America over the last century caused significant shifts in how America operated and viewed the idea of research and academia. Post-war Europeans (Von Braun's crowd being an obvious example) caused a large shift in the way America funded "big bet" projects. Saturn V perhaps. Same may happen in Europe. Those academics can use HN from the opposite side of the Atlantic. VC money especially has the possibility of being territorially bound, yet its often far less constrained by the those types of lines in the dirt than many funding opportunities.
    - scarab92 2y ago
      This theory presumes there is shortage of talented researchers in other countries, which is not the case. There aren't countries with unfilled academic positions awaiting people from the US. If anything, the landscape is even more competitive outside the US.
    - nradov 2y ago
      The sentiments that you see online are meaningless. Ignore what people say and look at what they actually do. I guarantee you that very few US academics will move to Europe. The US has long had positive net migration from Europe, and some temporary changes to federal government funding policies won't significantly change that trend.
- sseagull 2y ago
  Depends on the kinds of positions. There's more to academia than tenure-track faculty (which isn't in my future at all anyway). People around me tend to be in the RSE (Research Software Engineer) scene, which is growing in Europe. I, and many of my cohort, could fit in as research staff or faculty in many different disciplines. Wouldn't get rich or famous, but certainly have a comfortable living working on interesting problems.
  - lanstin 2y ago
    That sounds nice.
- esalman 2y ago
  It sounds as if the universe revolves around the US. Did you know that one of the biggest HPC cluster in the world is in Saudi Arabia? I know grad students who went there got duplex villas for free lodging. Before you start criticizing Saudi government, the reason we are discussing this right now is because a fascist government is forcing scientists out of the US.
scarab92 2y ago
There’s not that many jobs going in academia in other countries, and you’ll be looking at a significant pay cut due to the strong US dollar. Most likely, people who leave academia will be leaving for industry instead. I do feel for those in the hard sciences, they have become collateral damage in what is mostly a battle between politicians and humanities departments.
- lumost 2y ago
  I've been suspicious that the quality of life cut is distinct from the pay cut. Living in a dense European city, you do not need a car, healthcare is free, and you are generally afforded more time off and a stricter wlb compromise compared to the US. One doesn't need to eat takeout as often if there is time to cook. Depending on the country, rent/housing costs are more or less under control. On the other hand swiss/Netherlands food is expensive even by bay area standards.
  - wrl 2y ago
    Swiss maybe, but as a Dutch resident who was just in SF for the holidays... SF food is definitely more expensive.
    - lumost 2y ago
      Fair, my basis for comparison was the Amsterdam airport. I paid 35 euro for a soggy reheated sandwich and coffee. SFO has 18 dollar poke bowls. Perhaps Amsterdam airport pricing is extensively marked up compared to local pricing (understandable). Geneva was just plain expensive.
      - wrl 2y ago
        airports are always a nightmare! the other important thing to keep in mind is that in the EU in general, there's no added taxes on the bill, and tips are less of a thing here, so there's not a magical 20%+ hidden charge to factor in on everything you order.
      - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

qwe----3 2y ago

Good luck getting 500k+ grants in other countries. If you leave there won't be a shortage of postdocs looking for a new tenure track position.

bilbo0s 2y ago
Yeah that's kind of the thing. I think a lot of these guys and gals are fooling themselves with the whole, "find another country" thing. There is no other country that is A) doing research at these levels, B) Flush with cash, and C) needs you because they don't have a population that produces the necessary thinkers. That's basically only the US.
- bad_haircut72 2y ago
  Is the USA flush with cash? Last I checked they were deep in debt and its getting worse
  - lanstin 2y ago
    I think GDP/economic output/labor productivity continues to rise briskly. The government accounts are in debt because people in the US refuse to consistently vote for [people advocating] high enough taxes. But we could tax more (still less than Europe) and get balanced budget.
    - scarab92 2y ago
      Higher taxes do genuinely restrict economic growth, so it's not like raising taxes is a magic bullet. Personally, I think there is plenty of grift and wasteful expenditure we could look at addressing first, especially within the healthcare and defense portfolios.
      - lanstin 2y ago
        Not as much as having insufficient resources dedicated to the education of the young hurts economic growth (long term). I agree not using the world proven efficient healthcare strategy of universal coverage is pretty stupid economically, as is spending a trillion USD per annum on the military. But we are so rich these mistakes can be absorbed for surprisingly long.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    The US controls its currency and has no mandate for a balanced budget. So yes, the US is very flush with cash
    - bawolff 2y ago
      And importantly enjoys a privleged position in the world economy that enables them to run these types of long term deficits with minimal negative consequences. Something which might shift over the coming decades.
  - astrange 2y ago
    Those are the same thing. Higher public debt means there's more private credit available.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    Yes, but when you borrow, you have money in your hands. US firms are also very highly priced relative to their profits when compared to firms elsewhere. So while things are probably not quite sensible in the US there's still money.
- araes 2y ago
  The European research budget is not insignificant. Horizon Europe 2021-2027 is the current vehicle that much of the funding is going through (European Research Council [ERC] being one of the most well known parts). It has a budget for the time-frame (all years) of EUR 96,899,000,000. [1] Of that, the ERC has EUR 16B [2], Digital, Industry and Space has ~EUR 15B, Climate, Energy and Mobility has ~EUR 15B, and several other sub-groups have smaller amounts. Those then work with the country level organizations of Science Europe, and those together each spend about EUR 25B each year. [3] It's not insignificant. I tend to pay attention to space, and lately almost all there's been is European achievements in telescopes and astronomy. [1] Horizon Europe, https://www.ffg.at/sites/default/files/downloads/HorizonEuropeBudget.pdf https://www.ffg.at/sites/default/files/downloads/HorizonEuro... [2] ERC, https://erc.europa.eu/about-erc/erc-glance https://erc.europa.eu/about-erc/erc-glance [3] Science Europe RFOs, https://www.scienceeurope.org/about-us/members/?type=Research%20Funding%20Organisation%20(RFO) https://www.scienceeurope.org/about-us/members/?type=Researc...
  - sseagull 2y ago
    Thanks for the numbers! For comparison, the NSF budget is about $8 billion. DOE Office of Science is about the same. NIH is $45 billion (Also, compare that with the profit of large tech companies)
    - mdhb 2y ago
      That isn’t going to be anything even close to accurate before the week is over and that is kind of the entire point here.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
anonylizard 2y ago
This, the US is the country most willing to make daring bets on innovation. Europe will not spend even 0.1% of its pension/welfare fund on big research bets. The private investors their will only want real estate investments, not fancy wancy "VC". Young talent will flow one way from other countries to the US, because they've already seen what the grass is like on their side.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  > the US is the country most willing to make daring bets on innovation. … a critical tool of which we’re currently dismantling…
- araes 2y ago
  If the sentiment upthread holds, and large numbers of US academics move overseas, then relatively shortly, Europe may shift towards being more willing to make big research bets. The population shift introduces new ideas, new perspectives, new ways of operating research, new connections towards funding and money, new views on what big bets even means. The influx of foreign scientists and academics into America over the last century caused significant shifts in how America operated and viewed the idea of research and academia. Post-war Europeans (Von Braun's crowd being an obvious example) caused a large shift in the way America funded "big bet" projects. Saturn V perhaps. Same may happen in Europe. Those academics can use HN from the opposite side of the Atlantic. VC money especially has the possibility of being territorially bound, yet its often far less constrained by the those types of lines in the dirt than many funding opportunities.
  - scarab92 2y ago
    This theory presumes there is shortage of talented researchers in other countries, which is not the case. There aren't countries with unfilled academic positions awaiting people from the US. If anything, the landscape is even more competitive outside the US.
  - nradov 2y ago
    The sentiments that you see online are meaningless. Ignore what people say and look at what they actually do. I guarantee you that very few US academics will move to Europe. The US has long had positive net migration from Europe, and some temporary changes to federal government funding policies won't significantly change that trend.
sseagull 2y ago
Depends on the kinds of positions. There's more to academia than tenure-track faculty (which isn't in my future at all anyway). People around me tend to be in the RSE (Research Software Engineer) scene, which is growing in Europe. I, and many of my cohort, could fit in as research staff or faculty in many different disciplines. Wouldn't get rich or famous, but certainly have a comfortable living working on interesting problems.
- lanstin 2y ago
  That sounds nice.
esalman 2y ago
It sounds as if the universe revolves around the US. Did you know that one of the biggest HPC cluster in the world is in Saudi Arabia? I know grad students who went there got duplex villas for free lodging. Before you start criticizing Saudi government, the reason we are discussing this right now is because a fascist government is forcing scientists out of the US.

scarab92 2y ago

There’s not that many jobs going in academia in other countries, and you’ll be looking at a significant pay cut due to the strong US dollar. Most likely, people who leave academia will be leaving for industry instead. I do feel for those in the hard sciences, they have become collateral damage in what is mostly a battle between politicians and humanities departments.

lumost 2y ago
I've been suspicious that the quality of life cut is distinct from the pay cut. Living in a dense European city, you do not need a car, healthcare is free, and you are generally afforded more time off and a stricter wlb compromise compared to the US. One doesn't need to eat takeout as often if there is time to cook. Depending on the country, rent/housing costs are more or less under control. On the other hand swiss/Netherlands food is expensive even by bay area standards.
- wrl 2y ago
  Swiss maybe, but as a Dutch resident who was just in SF for the holidays... SF food is definitely more expensive.
  - lumost 2y ago
    Fair, my basis for comparison was the Amsterdam airport. I paid 35 euro for a soggy reheated sandwich and coffee. SFO has 18 dollar poke bowls. Perhaps Amsterdam airport pricing is extensively marked up compared to local pricing (understandable). Geneva was just plain expensive.
    - wrl 2y ago
      airports are always a nightmare! the other important thing to keep in mind is that in the EU in general, there's no added taxes on the bill, and tips are less of a thing here, so there's not a magical 20%+ hidden charge to factor in on everything you order.
    - 2y ago