4 ms·

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputation as, say, investment banking, we wouldn't have the pipeline problem that we do now. Surely banks don't have a problem finding young, quick thinking minds to put through their pressure factories. I don't think the ATC candidate pool is currently even close to the limit of people who could take the stress and do the work. Offer controllers starting salaries of $1M/yr and see how things start to change. Your point in the other thread about marketing the job to teenagers is also good. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people interested in ATC aren't already "aviation adjacent" to some degree (ex-military, family are pilots, and so on)

b112 2y ago
It's a different kind of pressure. Lives aren't on the line making trades, not like air travel. This lends to a different type of stress. Losing millions for your boss, losing your job != killing hundreds with a single mistake made in seconds.
- D-Coder 2y ago
  Yeah, the closest I ever came to life-critical software was payroll projects. I discovered by accident that people will notice a one-cent change in their paycheck.
bobthepanda 2y ago
part of the problem is the structural problems caused by high turnover are themselves causing high turnover. people can't take vacation, people need to work 6 days 12 hours a week. there is also the issue of location. where applicants are and where controllers are needed is often two distinct circles and once you throw relocation into remote areas into the mix it becomes really unattractive.
- stevage 2y ago
  And not allowing people to take anxiety meds is nuts. Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    I find the moderation here frustrating at times when people will down vote but not explain why. There may be a very go reason to not allow anxiety medication, I don't know enough about it myself.
    - Aurornis 2y ago
      > There may be a very go reason to not allow anxiety medication, I don't know enough about it myself. You’re getting downvoted because your comment is dangerously misinformed. Air traffic controllers aren’t allowed to take those anxiety medications (benzos, etc) because they impair your performance and judgment, even if you feel fine while taking them. Don’t confuse the way a drug makes you feel with the objective impairment of a drug.
      - themaninthedark 2y ago
        The comment I replied to is not one that I wrote. I appreciate you providing reasoning. I think the best way to deal with misinformation is good information and up/down votes are sometimes a good signal, sometimes it is an agree or disagree button.
  - newsclues 2y ago
    Or smoke cannabis after a hard stressful day at work
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    > Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state. Many drugs, especially some anxiety medications, produce false feelings of sobriety. I can’t believe I have to write this, but: Feeling mellow and focused from drugs does not mean you’re okay to perform well at mentally demanding or safety-critical tasks like driving or directing air traffic.
avn2109 2y ago
The million dollar salary thing is compelling. I would certainly switch careers from ML engineering for a million bucks of cash comp, especially in a low CoL location :) Also, the "30 years old" thing mentioned in the GP seems excessive, surely if they were really desperate to staff up, they could loosen that age limit.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  My own experience tells me that past 30 years old my thinking is slightly slower in the form of slightly longer reaction times, and slightly longer time to recall specific facts. This hardly matters in my current job but perhaps ATC would be different. Perhaps they are taking that into account.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - swores 2y ago
    What they're taking into account is their mandatory retirement age (56), which is indeed related to things like reaction times for people as they get older; and then they work back from that to say you need to be young enough to have earned your pension by the time you're forced to retire. So a rules change could improve things on that front, as they could for example allow working from 40 to 56 to count as enough to earn a full pension, without any change to their safety policy on the age cutoff for finishing working as an ATC - but it wouldn't be cheap, as you not only are massively increasing the cost of pensions across the board, but you're also paying the same amount to train a 40yo applicant as a 30yo one, but getting fewer years of valuable work back from that training cost.
- lazystar 2y ago
  20/20 vision in each eye (no contact lenses) is also a requirement. I have a feeling thatll rule out a lot of software engineers on this site.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
pbalau 2y ago
I think this is a naive way of looking at the problem. People that start working in banks, generally do that as a starting point. ATC is the end of the road for that career. Working in a bank is the start of a quite lucrative career, working as an ATC is the end. Indeed, we can offer more money to ATC, but there is not a lot, progression wise. Honestly, how would a junior ATC look like, compared with a senior?
- nine_k 2y ago
  Look at how much a senior airline pilot makes, compared to a junior.
  - pbalau 2y ago
    English might not be my native language, but I think we are not talking about pilots here.
- applied_heat 2y ago
  Hopefully they don’t throw juniors on to the busiest runways in the country
  - mcmcmc 2y ago
    Where else would they learn how to handle that kind of environment?
    - applied_heat 2y ago
      By starting at smaller airports or less busy runways, getting comfortable, then stepping up to more demanding situations.
    - sgarland 2y ago
      On submarines (still flying, just underwater), we don’t throw new underway buddies into the most difficult scenarios right away. We do give them a seemingly overwhelming amount of qualifications to achieve in a very short period of time, but we don’t make them practice the hard stuff until we’re sure that they understand the fundamentals. Because much like ATC, if you make a mistake hundreds of feet underwater (or thousands of feet in the sky), you’re gonna have a bad time. …kind of. In reality, there is always a qualified individual ready to physically stop you from doing the wrong thing, and there are multiple independent safety systems, interlocks, etc.
mp05 2y ago
> at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools The mass of unemployed CS grads?
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  What makes you think CS grads would be good candidates for a high stress job that requires excellent communication skills?
  - newsclues 2y ago
    Ability to rapidly process information and react to changes. Communication is a learned skill. Ability to handle stress and thrive under pressure is the key.
    - bluedino 2y ago
      We should have plenty of people that play video games.
    - sgarland 2y ago
      I don’t think your average tech worker has any notion of what stress is, unless you’re consistently on-call overnight. Even then, it’s not the same. This isn’t meant to belittle or scoff at people’s lived experiences, but the difference between “if I get this wrong, my company will lose millions of dollars” and “if I get this wrong, hundreds of people die” is VAST.
  - mp05 2y ago
    They won't be, which is why it's funny to me.
0xB31B1B 2y ago
I think you're simplifying the frame far too much here. My wife works in medicine as an ENT surgeon. There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year, or about 2.5-3x the salary a large hospital in a major metro would pay for the work. The position has been unfilled for 4 years. As best I can tell, the two main reasons the job goes unfilled are a combination of (1) it has a stressful call schedule and (2) its in an remote and undesirable location. ATC jobs have a wide geographic distribution. You need ATC at the commercial airports in Klamath Falls OR and Elmira NY and these are places people are generally moving away from, not moving into because they are run down and have low opportunity and general prevalence of rural poverty. Paying more money doesn't automagically fill these roles, and there is an upper limit to how much you can pay someone and have it be a net benefit.
- chii 2y ago
  > There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year while 1.1m/yr sounds like a lot, it isn't the right number to consider. The right number is the difference between this job, and a similar job else where that has better facilities/amenities and comfort. If said surgeons who would qualify could've gotten a similar job in a major city for a similar amount of money, they might prefer it there (near family/friends, amenities etc). So how much _over_ the typical pay is the 1.1m/yr salary offered?
  - insom 2y ago
    The commenter did say up to 3x, so up to ~730K higher than that job in a major city (with possibly better facilities but who knows)
    - boredatoms 2y ago
      It sounds like it needs to be higher than 3x then
      - Panzer04 2y ago

b112 2y ago

It's a different kind of pressure. Lives aren't on the line making trades, not like air travel. This lends to a different type of stress. Losing millions for your boss, losing your job != killing hundreds with a single mistake made in seconds.

D-Coder 2y ago
Yeah, the closest I ever came to life-critical software was payroll projects. I discovered by accident that people will notice a one-cent change in their paycheck.

bobthepanda 2y ago

part of the problem is the structural problems caused by high turnover are themselves causing high turnover. people can't take vacation, people need to work 6 days 12 hours a week. there is also the issue of location. where applicants are and where controllers are needed is often two distinct circles and once you throw relocation into remote areas into the mix it becomes really unattractive.

stevage 2y ago
And not allowing people to take anxiety meds is nuts. Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  I find the moderation here frustrating at times when people will down vote but not explain why. There may be a very go reason to not allow anxiety medication, I don't know enough about it myself.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    > There may be a very go reason to not allow anxiety medication, I don't know enough about it myself. You’re getting downvoted because your comment is dangerously misinformed. Air traffic controllers aren’t allowed to take those anxiety medications (benzos, etc) because they impair your performance and judgment, even if you feel fine while taking them. Don’t confuse the way a drug makes you feel with the objective impairment of a drug.
    - themaninthedark 2y ago
      The comment I replied to is not one that I wrote. I appreciate you providing reasoning. I think the best way to deal with misinformation is good information and up/down votes are sometimes a good signal, sometimes it is an agree or disagree button.
- newsclues 2y ago
  Or smoke cannabis after a hard stressful day at work
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state. Many drugs, especially some anxiety medications, produce false feelings of sobriety. I can’t believe I have to write this, but: Feeling mellow and focused from drugs does not mean you’re okay to perform well at mentally demanding or safety-critical tasks like driving or directing air traffic.

avn2109 2y ago

The million dollar salary thing is compelling. I would certainly switch careers from ML engineering for a million bucks of cash comp, especially in a low CoL location :) Also, the "30 years old" thing mentioned in the GP seems excessive, surely if they were really desperate to staff up, they could loosen that age limit.

kccqzy 2y ago
My own experience tells me that past 30 years old my thinking is slightly slower in the form of slightly longer reaction times, and slightly longer time to recall specific facts. This hardly matters in my current job but perhaps ATC would be different. Perhaps they are taking that into account.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- swores 2y ago
  What they're taking into account is their mandatory retirement age (56), which is indeed related to things like reaction times for people as they get older; and then they work back from that to say you need to be young enough to have earned your pension by the time you're forced to retire. So a rules change could improve things on that front, as they could for example allow working from 40 to 56 to count as enough to earn a full pension, without any change to their safety policy on the age cutoff for finishing working as an ATC - but it wouldn't be cheap, as you not only are massively increasing the cost of pensions across the board, but you're also paying the same amount to train a 40yo applicant as a 30yo one, but getting fewer years of valuable work back from that training cost.
lazystar 2y ago
20/20 vision in each eye (no contact lenses) is also a requirement. I have a feeling thatll rule out a lot of software engineers on this site.
- saagarjha 2y ago

pbalau 2y ago

I think this is a naive way of looking at the problem. People that start working in banks, generally do that as a starting point. ATC is the end of the road for that career. Working in a bank is the start of a quite lucrative career, working as an ATC is the end. Indeed, we can offer more money to ATC, but there is not a lot, progression wise. Honestly, how would a junior ATC look like, compared with a senior?

nine_k 2y ago
Look at how much a senior airline pilot makes, compared to a junior.
- pbalau 2y ago
  English might not be my native language, but I think we are not talking about pilots here.
applied_heat 2y ago
Hopefully they don’t throw juniors on to the busiest runways in the country
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  Where else would they learn how to handle that kind of environment?
  - applied_heat 2y ago
    By starting at smaller airports or less busy runways, getting comfortable, then stepping up to more demanding situations.
  - sgarland 2y ago
    On submarines (still flying, just underwater), we don’t throw new underway buddies into the most difficult scenarios right away. We do give them a seemingly overwhelming amount of qualifications to achieve in a very short period of time, but we don’t make them practice the hard stuff until we’re sure that they understand the fundamentals. Because much like ATC, if you make a mistake hundreds of feet underwater (or thousands of feet in the sky), you’re gonna have a bad time. …kind of. In reality, there is always a qualified individual ready to physically stop you from doing the wrong thing, and there are multiple independent safety systems, interlocks, etc.

mp05 2y ago

> at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools The mass of unemployed CS grads?

mcmcmc 2y ago
What makes you think CS grads would be good candidates for a high stress job that requires excellent communication skills?
- newsclues 2y ago
  Ability to rapidly process information and react to changes. Communication is a learned skill. Ability to handle stress and thrive under pressure is the key.
  - bluedino 2y ago
    We should have plenty of people that play video games.
  - sgarland 2y ago
    I don’t think your average tech worker has any notion of what stress is, unless you’re consistently on-call overnight. Even then, it’s not the same. This isn’t meant to belittle or scoff at people’s lived experiences, but the difference between “if I get this wrong, my company will lose millions of dollars” and “if I get this wrong, hundreds of people die” is VAST.
- mp05 2y ago
  They won't be, which is why it's funny to me.

0xB31B1B 2y ago

I think you're simplifying the frame far too much here. My wife works in medicine as an ENT surgeon. There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year, or about 2.5-3x the salary a large hospital in a major metro would pay for the work. The position has been unfilled for 4 years. As best I can tell, the two main reasons the job goes unfilled are a combination of (1) it has a stressful call schedule and (2) its in an remote and undesirable location. ATC jobs have a wide geographic distribution. You need ATC at the commercial airports in Klamath Falls OR and Elmira NY and these are places people are generally moving away from, not moving into because they are run down and have low opportunity and general prevalence of rural poverty. Paying more money doesn't automagically fill these roles, and there is an upper limit to how much you can pay someone and have it be a net benefit.

chii 2y ago
> There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year while 1.1m/yr sounds like a lot, it isn't the right number to consider. The right number is the difference between this job, and a similar job else where that has better facilities/amenities and comfort. If said surgeons who would qualify could've gotten a similar job in a major city for a similar amount of money, they might prefer it there (near family/friends, amenities etc). So how much _over_ the typical pay is the 1.1m/yr salary offered?
- insom 2y ago
  The commenter did say up to 3x, so up to ~730K higher than that job in a major city (with possibly better facilities but who knows)
  - boredatoms 2y ago
    It sounds like it needs to be higher than 3x then
    - Panzer04 2y ago