4 ms·

I'm not a fan of many of the practices you complain about here, but I will say this: We get paid too little for what we do for way too long....6 years of grad s

I'm not a fan of many of the practices you complain about here, but I will say this: We get paid too little for what we do for way too long....6 years of grad school (24k/yr) 6 year post-doc (42k/yr) in California, when I was in those positions anyway. Today, at UC Davis, assistant professors in the UC system start at $90,700 [1, for salary scale], which is often around 12 years after their undergraduate degree. That's in California, where a mortgage costs you $3,000 a month, minimum. [1] https://aadocs.ucdavis.edu/policies/step-plus/salary-scales/october-2024/stepplussystemsalaryscales-1october2024-table2.pdf https://aadocs.ucdavis.edu/policies/step-plus/salary-scales/...

dgfitz 2y ago
You keep bringing up one state in the union as if the whole system is flawed because of this one state.
- SubiculumCode 2y ago
  I was contextualizing my response because cost of living is higher in California, and some of those numbers may seem more reasonable if it were in Arkansas, for example.
  - caycep 2y ago
    I think NIH does a cost of living adjustment.
- jdeibele 2y ago
  Picking a state that's not California nor New York, Massachusetts, etc.: https://www.indeed.com/career/assistant-professor/salaries/AR https://www.indeed.com/career/assistant-professor/salaries/A... Says $60,000 for University of Arkansas or 2/3rd of what was listed for California. I'm not an academic nor do I live in California (or Arkansas) but $90,000/year after 6 years working below minimum wage and 6 years barely above doesn't sound that great in <economic terms>. Hopefully people are getting benefits from teaching or research.
  - BeetleB 2y ago
    $60K is very hard to believe. I wouldn't trust indeed.com for faculty salaries. For one thing, the variance is high between departments. Engineering gets paid a lot more than history, for example. According to https://www.univstats.com/salary/university-of-arkansas/faculty/ https://www.univstats.com/salary/university-of-arkansas/facu..., assistant professor is $91K. The caveats still apply - some likely get a lot more, and some a lot less. Fortunately, it's a public university, so we can see actual salaries: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZGM3Yzg2YzMtNDY3YS00Nzk4LThiMDctNjhkNDVlYmE2YjM2IiwidCI6IjhjMWE4N2NiLTgwYjctNDEzZi05YWU4LTU1YzZhNTM3MDYwNCJ9 https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZGM3Yzg2YzMtNDY3YS00N... Looking at some random assistant professors in relevant departments, I see: One who earns $113K Another who earns $94K Another who earns $96K. These are regular departments, (biochemistry, biology, etc). Not medical departments. I'm sure those ones get paid more (e.g. one I personally knew in Houston got $180K in a public university in Dallas). So mid $90's would be my guess. Then note that these are 9 month salaries, and the typical deal is they get up to a third more from grants (their "summer" salary). So total compensation for assistant professors would be about $120K. Faculty salaries are not that bad, as a rule. What's really bad is the number of years they spend trying to get a postdoc.
    - caycep 2y ago
      for biomedical, it is what your grant stipulates. I.e. I think way back when, K23's paid $98k for 75% time (or maybe 70%) and your institution agreed to pay the rest. Sometimes, they would actually pay you more to try and get close to fair market value, but that is if the department is generous. For famous institutions, like UCLA, or Brigham and Women's, the law of supply and demand is not on your side bc if you don't like the low salary, there's a giant line of wannabes waiting to take your spot.
    - SubiculumCode 2y ago
      Are you sure that those are 9 month salaries?
      - BeetleB 2y ago
- lmm 2y ago
  That one state is where the apex of the system is. It's where a lot of, maybe most, research happens, it's where perhaps most tech development happens, it's even where a lot of our popular culture is determined. It's where ~everyone is aiming for, even if only a fraction of them will make it there, so it affects the whole system.
  - latency-guy2 2y ago
    All that given, most people still live on the East coast, as in 80% past Nevada. Culture is arguable. For Americans, there is a clear difference between what behavior might be normal in the bay area/silicon valley all the way to LA than it is for NY, Boston, Houston, Miami, Detroit, etc. I'd even assert "most tech development" is just plain wrong. It's certainly where many companies are HQ'd, but those same companies have offices all over the states, and each one offers/specializes in different products. It also depends on what you mean by "tech development" of course. R&D projects and new developments, maybe there's an edge. I have a much stronger feeling that more research is performed in the Boston -> DC metropolis than the equivalent (as in distance) metropolis spanning from LA -> Silicon Valley.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    You sincerely believe this?
nradov 2y ago
Why do employees keep voluntarily accepting that type of abuse? Low wages aren't a secret and the employees doing that work aren't idiots so they must know what they're getting into. Are they doing it out of some sort of moral duty, or as immigrants seeking permanent resident status, or is there some other reason? Presumably if people stopped accepting those wages then the wages would have to rise.
- caycep 2y ago
  A lot of this is defined by the NIH, K23/R01 grant amounts specify what kind of salary they support and are kind of defined by the powers that be... UC system def has more overhead than usual, and there may be some cost-of-living adjustments but... Hence why a lot of us went into private practice...
  - bruce511 2y ago
    I'll add in that it's a buyer's market. There are plenty of post docs with no work (who want to work in the academic space) so if you don't want the post there are plenty in line who do. There's no post-doc-research union to set and enforce reasonable pay scales, but equally a union would have difficulty adjusting rates to local cost of living. Put another way - supply and demand baby, supply and demand.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      UC postdocs are unionized… but it’s not a great union. The higher paid postdocs saw their pay and benefits go down from the union.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Those numbers aren’t accurate anymore they’re out of date and now much higher. Also, I voluntarily pay my students and postdocs 2-3x those numbers currently. But ultimately (1) those are seen as training positions that lead to a tenured faculty position, which pays fairly well, and has a lot of job security and freedom; (2) certain granting agencies limit what you can spend on students and postdocs, to levels that are too low for HCOL areas.

dgfitz 2y ago

You keep bringing up one state in the union as if the whole system is flawed because of this one state.

SubiculumCode 2y ago
I was contextualizing my response because cost of living is higher in California, and some of those numbers may seem more reasonable if it were in Arkansas, for example.
- caycep 2y ago
  I think NIH does a cost of living adjustment.
jdeibele 2y ago
Picking a state that's not California nor New York, Massachusetts, etc.: https://www.indeed.com/career/assistant-professor/salaries/AR https://www.indeed.com/career/assistant-professor/salaries/A... Says $60,000 for University of Arkansas or 2/3rd of what was listed for California. I'm not an academic nor do I live in California (or Arkansas) but $90,000/year after 6 years working below minimum wage and 6 years barely above doesn't sound that great in <economic terms>. Hopefully people are getting benefits from teaching or research.
- BeetleB 2y ago
  $60K is very hard to believe. I wouldn't trust indeed.com for faculty salaries. For one thing, the variance is high between departments. Engineering gets paid a lot more than history, for example. According to https://www.univstats.com/salary/university-of-arkansas/faculty/ https://www.univstats.com/salary/university-of-arkansas/facu..., assistant professor is $91K. The caveats still apply - some likely get a lot more, and some a lot less. Fortunately, it's a public university, so we can see actual salaries: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZGM3Yzg2YzMtNDY3YS00Nzk4LThiMDctNjhkNDVlYmE2YjM2IiwidCI6IjhjMWE4N2NiLTgwYjctNDEzZi05YWU4LTU1YzZhNTM3MDYwNCJ9 https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZGM3Yzg2YzMtNDY3YS00N... Looking at some random assistant professors in relevant departments, I see: One who earns $113K Another who earns $94K Another who earns $96K. These are regular departments, (biochemistry, biology, etc). Not medical departments. I'm sure those ones get paid more (e.g. one I personally knew in Houston got $180K in a public university in Dallas). So mid $90's would be my guess. Then note that these are 9 month salaries, and the typical deal is they get up to a third more from grants (their "summer" salary). So total compensation for assistant professors would be about $120K. Faculty salaries are not that bad, as a rule. What's really bad is the number of years they spend trying to get a postdoc.
  - caycep 2y ago
    for biomedical, it is what your grant stipulates. I.e. I think way back when, K23's paid $98k for 75% time (or maybe 70%) and your institution agreed to pay the rest. Sometimes, they would actually pay you more to try and get close to fair market value, but that is if the department is generous. For famous institutions, like UCLA, or Brigham and Women's, the law of supply and demand is not on your side bc if you don't like the low salary, there's a giant line of wannabes waiting to take your spot.
  - SubiculumCode 2y ago
    Are you sure that those are 9 month salaries?
    - BeetleB 2y ago
lmm 2y ago
That one state is where the apex of the system is. It's where a lot of, maybe most, research happens, it's where perhaps most tech development happens, it's even where a lot of our popular culture is determined. It's where ~everyone is aiming for, even if only a fraction of them will make it there, so it affects the whole system.
- latency-guy2 2y ago
  All that given, most people still live on the East coast, as in 80% past Nevada. Culture is arguable. For Americans, there is a clear difference between what behavior might be normal in the bay area/silicon valley all the way to LA than it is for NY, Boston, Houston, Miami, Detroit, etc. I'd even assert "most tech development" is just plain wrong. It's certainly where many companies are HQ'd, but those same companies have offices all over the states, and each one offers/specializes in different products. It also depends on what you mean by "tech development" of course. R&D projects and new developments, maybe there's an edge. I have a much stronger feeling that more research is performed in the Boston -> DC metropolis than the equivalent (as in distance) metropolis spanning from LA -> Silicon Valley.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  You sincerely believe this?

nradov 2y ago

Why do employees keep voluntarily accepting that type of abuse? Low wages aren't a secret and the employees doing that work aren't idiots so they must know what they're getting into. Are they doing it out of some sort of moral duty, or as immigrants seeking permanent resident status, or is there some other reason? Presumably if people stopped accepting those wages then the wages would have to rise.

caycep 2y ago
A lot of this is defined by the NIH, K23/R01 grant amounts specify what kind of salary they support and are kind of defined by the powers that be... UC system def has more overhead than usual, and there may be some cost-of-living adjustments but... Hence why a lot of us went into private practice...
- bruce511 2y ago
  I'll add in that it's a buyer's market. There are plenty of post docs with no work (who want to work in the academic space) so if you don't want the post there are plenty in line who do. There's no post-doc-research union to set and enforce reasonable pay scales, but equally a union would have difficulty adjusting rates to local cost of living. Put another way - supply and demand baby, supply and demand.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    UC postdocs are unionized… but it’s not a great union. The higher paid postdocs saw their pay and benefits go down from the union.
_yb2s 2y ago
Those numbers aren’t accurate anymore they’re out of date and now much higher. Also, I voluntarily pay my students and postdocs 2-3x those numbers currently. But ultimately (1) those are seen as training positions that lead to a tenured faculty position, which pays fairly well, and has a lot of job security and freedom; (2) certain granting agencies limit what you can spend on students and postdocs, to levels that are too low for HCOL areas.