11 ms·

> It's high time that we put the hammer down on Temu, Shein et al., and that hard. Why? Their business model is perfectly legal, and in fact, as the article m

> It's high time that we put the hammer down on Temu, Shein et al., and that hard. Why? Their business model is perfectly legal, and in fact, as the article makes clear, it's not even a "loophole" -- what they're taking advantage of is an explicit provision of law. On the other side of the equation, US consumers benefit from lower prices, and often superior quality, relative to what they'd otherwise get on Amazon and Wal-Mart. Besides, Amazon and Wal-Mart are often (in some retail categories even usually) middlemen for Chinese manufacturers. Shein, Temu, et al. are demonstrably superior middlemen. So what's the harm?

mindslight 2y ago
> So what's the harm? Bezos is looking at the tariff increases and wondering what the fuck he just bought. Welcome to the party, pal. There are no free returns on this one.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  Not to mention what happens when the people that have a clue pull back spending to stack cash while a multiprong trade war erupts. "A little pain?"
- oneshtein 2y ago
  It looks like Russians bought it, like in other countries. For me, the whole situation reminds me Soviet «icebreaker» plan of war with NATO.
lumost 2y ago
Were making it cheaper to import product from across the globe than to manufacture and ship across town. Its in most countries interest to build things locally if they can. A policy which penalizes a local business in favor of a foreign one is pathological.
- oa335 2y ago
  > Its in most countries interest to build things locally if they can. Why is it in a country's interest to build things "locally"? Is that true in all cases?
  - Muromec 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - oa335 2y ago
      Have you known anyone addicted to opiates? In my experience and observations, working a job hardly precludes people from using opiates.
      - Muromec 2y ago
        I suspect the causation is point the other wat -- people who don't have a path forward in life (which includes unemployed and otherwise destitute) start doing drugs.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  But it raises the price for consumers! But it also employs nobody. If everyone's jobless what's the point? Is the end goal really manufacturing everything offshore and employing nobody? How the heck is that sustainable? What would such an economy even look like?
  - Muromec 2y ago
    >What would such an economy even look like? You get your monthly dividents from CHOAM shares and IP that you license to the thinking machine and buy spice to enjoy decadency of life of course.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  Good luck putting the genie back in the bottle.
- stevenwoo 2y ago
  We already ship food stuffs from the USA to China where it is processed and it gets sent back to the USA, because the cost to do this shipping back and forth and labor is so low it undercuts any North American processor. This is what free trade and low cost of bunker fuel, zero consequences for heavy pollution for container ships have wrought. One example: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/nw-salmon-sent-to-china-before-reaching-us-tables/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/nw-salmon-sent-to-chin...
- xnzakg 2y ago
  I agree with the "build things locally" thing, but that only works for products that are popular enough in an area/country to justify production, and, through economy of scale, allow for a low enough price to be competitive. Meanwhile those who need some niche items, for example people with a niche hobby, end up having to pay more for the same things, because they simply have no other choice. Or if they're lucky they can pay several times the price to a local (usually online) store, getting the same product, probably from the exact same factory line, just for several times the price, because now there's an extra middleman.
- Muromec 2y ago
  I often see the same or similar item on aliexpress for about 2-3 eurobucks, while the local shop will happily sell it to me for 20. It isn't even 2 bucks for chinese product versus the one manufactured locally, it's literally the same thing.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > It isn't even 2 bucks for chinese product versus the one manufactured locally, it's literally the same thing. Well, at least if the thing is broken during 2 years post purchase, I can send it back to the seller and either get a repair or my money back, I don't have to pick up the parcel from customs in person (this one is a common annoyance for Germans, made more difficult by the ridiculous opening hours and the Zollämter only being present in the major cities), shipment is faster than 4 weeks aka "economy" and if it burns down my house I can at least drag some poor sod in front of a court and hope they got a corporate liability insurance. All of that costs money, hence the thing being re-sold for what appears to be a ridiculous markup.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      > Well, at least if the thing is broken during 2 years post purchase, I can send it back to the seller and either get a repair or my money back > if it burns down my house I can at least drag some poor sod in front of a court and hope they got a corporate liability insurance. Valid but I doubt a more thorough warranty is worth more than 5-20%. > I don't have to pick up the parcel from customs in person Does that actually make the shipping from china cheaper, though? Probably not. Paying to avoid an artificial barrier is a pretty bad justification for price. > shipment is faster than 4 weeks aka "economy" If that's a big factor, wouldn't I be able to get similar super cheap prices with slow shipping from an in-country warehouse? Because I don't see that, I see prices that are similar to going to the store.
toss1 2y ago
The harm is to every other vendor who actually pays their taxes, and every resident of the country who now gets lower services for the taxes they pay, because those scammers are cheating at scale.
mschuster91 2y ago
> So what's the harm? Imagine you're making a product that is produced in America (or you import it wholesale from China) and conforms to American standards for product safety - fire resistance, toxic chemicals, electrical safety, IT security, EM emissions. Now, some Chinese cloners come, clone your product but shart on all the regulations, cut corners everywhere and sell it for half the price or less on Temu. You're out of business, your employees are out of jobs, the US taxman is out of all of your tax revenue, and to top it off people complain about "your" product being faulty/incompliant/dangerous because they got shipped illegitimate clones. In the worst case people actually die in their sleep because the shoddy li-ion battery cell erupts in flames. Everyone suffers from this form of unfair competition. > Besides, Amazon and Wal-Mart are often (in some retail categories even usually) middlemen for Chinese manufacturers. Indeed, but at least Wal-Mart makes rigorous QA for everything they sell in a store (they're known to be especially cut-throat). And Amazon at least gives you your money back no questions asked.
- krupan 2y ago
  This whole scenario assumes that the majority of people are just plain dumb, and if that's the case then we are screwed as a society no matter what regulations and tariffs you put in place
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > This whole scenario assumes that the majority of people are just plain dumb No, but price-driven. That's the point. Temu, Shein and whatnot other "fast fashion" is successful because they are so much cheaper than the competition (who has to pay for shipping, customs, ...), and an ever larger part of Western populations has to struggle financially every single paycheck. Replacing domestic or even mid-quality Chinese clothes with Shein is just like the Boots theory [1]. The problem is, once too much of the lower income bracket falls away on the demand side, anything of higher quality on the producer side doesn't have enough of a market to sustain itself. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
    - 2y ago
cameldrv 2y ago
The nature of parcel shipping and ecommerce has changed. Years ago it wasn’t economically practical to order things directly from China and ship them to the U.S. Instead you’d fill up a container and send it to a U.S. distributor, and pay the tariff. The de mininimis exemption was to avoid hassle and overhead for small value transactions. Currently though temu and schein have a big advantage over Amazon and U.S. retailers because they completely avoid tariffs by shipping direct from China.
- novok 2y ago
  Temu style stuff has been around since the late 2000s, but it was ebay and not as popular.
briandear 2y ago
> superior quality citation needed. Also, Shein is notorious for their sweatshops, forced labor and all sorts of highly unethical business practices. A terrible company that should be destroyed, especially since part of their business model is targeting pre-teen girls with highly manipulative and exploitive content.

mindslight 2y ago

> So what's the harm? Bezos is looking at the tariff increases and wondering what the fuck he just bought. Welcome to the party, pal. There are no free returns on this one.

datavirtue 2y ago
Not to mention what happens when the people that have a clue pull back spending to stack cash while a multiprong trade war erupts. "A little pain?"
oneshtein 2y ago
It looks like Russians bought it, like in other countries. For me, the whole situation reminds me Soviet «icebreaker» plan of war with NATO.

lumost 2y ago

Were making it cheaper to import product from across the globe than to manufacture and ship across town. Its in most countries interest to build things locally if they can. A policy which penalizes a local business in favor of a foreign one is pathological.

oa335 2y ago
> Its in most countries interest to build things locally if they can. Why is it in a country's interest to build things "locally"? Is that true in all cases?
- Muromec 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - oa335 2y ago
    Have you known anyone addicted to opiates? In my experience and observations, working a job hardly precludes people from using opiates.
    - Muromec 2y ago
      I suspect the causation is point the other wat -- people who don't have a path forward in life (which includes unemployed and otherwise destitute) start doing drugs.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
But it raises the price for consumers! But it also employs nobody. If everyone's jobless what's the point? Is the end goal really manufacturing everything offshore and employing nobody? How the heck is that sustainable? What would such an economy even look like?
- Muromec 2y ago
  >What would such an economy even look like? You get your monthly dividents from CHOAM shares and IP that you license to the thinking machine and buy spice to enjoy decadency of life of course.
datavirtue 2y ago
Good luck putting the genie back in the bottle.
stevenwoo 2y ago
We already ship food stuffs from the USA to China where it is processed and it gets sent back to the USA, because the cost to do this shipping back and forth and labor is so low it undercuts any North American processor. This is what free trade and low cost of bunker fuel, zero consequences for heavy pollution for container ships have wrought. One example: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/nw-salmon-sent-to-china-before-reaching-us-tables/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/nw-salmon-sent-to-chin...
xnzakg 2y ago
I agree with the "build things locally" thing, but that only works for products that are popular enough in an area/country to justify production, and, through economy of scale, allow for a low enough price to be competitive. Meanwhile those who need some niche items, for example people with a niche hobby, end up having to pay more for the same things, because they simply have no other choice. Or if they're lucky they can pay several times the price to a local (usually online) store, getting the same product, probably from the exact same factory line, just for several times the price, because now there's an extra middleman.
Muromec 2y ago
I often see the same or similar item on aliexpress for about 2-3 eurobucks, while the local shop will happily sell it to me for 20. It isn't even 2 bucks for chinese product versus the one manufactured locally, it's literally the same thing.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > It isn't even 2 bucks for chinese product versus the one manufactured locally, it's literally the same thing. Well, at least if the thing is broken during 2 years post purchase, I can send it back to the seller and either get a repair or my money back, I don't have to pick up the parcel from customs in person (this one is a common annoyance for Germans, made more difficult by the ridiculous opening hours and the Zollämter only being present in the major cities), shipment is faster than 4 weeks aka "economy" and if it burns down my house I can at least drag some poor sod in front of a court and hope they got a corporate liability insurance. All of that costs money, hence the thing being re-sold for what appears to be a ridiculous markup.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > Well, at least if the thing is broken during 2 years post purchase, I can send it back to the seller and either get a repair or my money back > if it burns down my house I can at least drag some poor sod in front of a court and hope they got a corporate liability insurance. Valid but I doubt a more thorough warranty is worth more than 5-20%. > I don't have to pick up the parcel from customs in person Does that actually make the shipping from china cheaper, though? Probably not. Paying to avoid an artificial barrier is a pretty bad justification for price. > shipment is faster than 4 weeks aka "economy" If that's a big factor, wouldn't I be able to get similar super cheap prices with slow shipping from an in-country warehouse? Because I don't see that, I see prices that are similar to going to the store.

toss1 2y ago

The harm is to every other vendor who actually pays their taxes, and every resident of the country who now gets lower services for the taxes they pay, because those scammers are cheating at scale.

mschuster91 2y ago

> So what's the harm? Imagine you're making a product that is produced in America (or you import it wholesale from China) and conforms to American standards for product safety - fire resistance, toxic chemicals, electrical safety, IT security, EM emissions. Now, some Chinese cloners come, clone your product but shart on all the regulations, cut corners everywhere and sell it for half the price or less on Temu. You're out of business, your employees are out of jobs, the US taxman is out of all of your tax revenue, and to top it off people complain about "your" product being faulty/incompliant/dangerous because they got shipped illegitimate clones. In the worst case people actually die in their sleep because the shoddy li-ion battery cell erupts in flames. Everyone suffers from this form of unfair competition. > Besides, Amazon and Wal-Mart are often (in some retail categories even usually) middlemen for Chinese manufacturers. Indeed, but at least Wal-Mart makes rigorous QA for everything they sell in a store (they're known to be especially cut-throat). And Amazon at least gives you your money back no questions asked.

krupan 2y ago
This whole scenario assumes that the majority of people are just plain dumb, and if that's the case then we are screwed as a society no matter what regulations and tariffs you put in place
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > This whole scenario assumes that the majority of people are just plain dumb No, but price-driven. That's the point. Temu, Shein and whatnot other "fast fashion" is successful because they are so much cheaper than the competition (who has to pay for shipping, customs, ...), and an ever larger part of Western populations has to struggle financially every single paycheck. Replacing domestic or even mid-quality Chinese clothes with Shein is just like the Boots theory [1]. The problem is, once too much of the lower income bracket falls away on the demand side, anything of higher quality on the producer side doesn't have enough of a market to sustain itself. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
  - 2y ago

cameldrv 2y ago

The nature of parcel shipping and ecommerce has changed. Years ago it wasn’t economically practical to order things directly from China and ship them to the U.S. Instead you’d fill up a container and send it to a U.S. distributor, and pay the tariff. The de mininimis exemption was to avoid hassle and overhead for small value transactions. Currently though temu and schein have a big advantage over Amazon and U.S. retailers because they completely avoid tariffs by shipping direct from China.

novok 2y ago
Temu style stuff has been around since the late 2000s, but it was ebay and not as popular.

briandear 2y ago

> superior quality citation needed. Also, Shein is notorious for their sweatshops, forced labor and all sorts of highly unethical business practices. A terrible company that should be destroyed, especially since part of their business model is targeting pre-teen girls with highly manipulative and exploitive content.