4 ms·

Would it be possible to achieve the same 8 hours of operation between charges?

by zppln 2y ago

Retric 2y ago
Yes. Hydrogen has even worse issues with total energy storage in these kinds of appliances than batteries.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  But one can bring hydrogen with an electric truck…
  - Retric 2y ago
    Hydrogen work vehicles require hydrogen storage and delivery. PEV work vehicles can also use hydrogen powered generators on site but they can also use anything from an on-site solar to a standard grid connection. As long as 98% of our hydrogen is coming from fossil fuels it’s only a net negative here.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      Whatever, good luck hauling electricity on a truck. We’re talking in the context of „you’re building a new highway, good luck getting enough electricity to charge those machines in that place”. What, you gonna haul your solar farm as the construction moves on for dozens of miles?
      - Loudergood 2y ago
        Is it time to bring up swappable batteries again? You could truck in a trailer just like diesel.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        do that
      - Retric 2y ago
        Why exactly would you want to haul electricity using a truck a rather than wires exactly? PEV’s are often more convenient and cheaper to use on a work site than diesel and are actually being adopted for that reason, it’s hydrogen that’s lacking distribution infrastructure.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        > and are actually being adopted Care to share some examples?
        Retric 2y ago
        Look at the caterpillar line of EV vehicles they are becoming quite popular. Ex: 798 AC a 372 metric ton payload truck https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/off-highway-trucks/mining-trucks/15970073.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/off-highway... At the other end mini EV excavators are also becoming quite popular ex: Volvo ECR25, Bobcat E19e, etc
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Are you seriously showing me a mining truck and some micro machines you can use to dig a trench in your garden as an example of EV machines being „adopted”? Do you even know what makes those mining trucks functional for this use case? The deeper the mine, the more effective they are!
        Retric 2y ago
        Yes, people buying EV work vehicles are examples of EV work vehicles being adopted, which is pushing manufacturers to make ever more diversified product lines. A work crew putting in a trench really benefits from the equipment being quit. What you think of as “digging in your garden” is just one of plentiful examples of home construction scale equipment. There’s a lot of equipment that fits such purposes like rollers for people’s driveways etc. Here’s a preproduction equivalent to the hydrogen prototype mentioned in the article: 320 Electric Medium Excavator Operating weight: 22–24 metric tons | 48,501–52,911 lb Bucket capacity: 1.3 m³ | 1.7 yd³ https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/construction/electric-products.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/construction/electric-...
themaninthedark 2y ago
Try 10 to 12 hours as most construction jobs are waiting on weather and run overtime when they can. Second, where is the charge point when you are building a new highway? Roads are usually the first to go in, so if you have to spend an hour driving to a charge point, that's an hour of productive lost
- dylan604 2y ago
  Simple, you run a diesel powered generator! /s If it's out in the boonies, yeah, power usually follows the roads. If it's existing infrastructure being upgraded, just tap in to what is already there
  - tfourb 2y ago
    You may laugh, but running an optimized diesel generator to charge battery-powered heavy vehicles can be much more energy efficient than running the vehicles directly on diesel engines. Check out Edison Motors, who are in the process of developing a mass-market diesel-electric hybrid truck: https://www.youtube.com/@EdisonMotors https://www.youtube.com/@EdisonMotors
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    Apropos YouTube video was served to me: https://youtube.com/shorts/BvC9oLeqOfY?si=Fj_Yxeq636IGBIhC https://youtube.com/shorts/BvC9oLeqOfY?si=Fj_Yxeq636IGBIhC I like electric vehicles, they make sense. I think most construction workers would like electric equipment as well, not as loud, less fumes, less heat. Overall better but it has to make sense. Large mine trucks are either electric or hybrid. They recharge as they go into the pit.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      Well, the guy in the YT video is clearly not logical. One diesel genny feeding all of those trucks vs all of those trucks being ICE powered. Some people just can't connect the dots. Modern train engines are just diesel powered generators pushing electric motors. That's how they can claim 100mpg. They could do similar to the construction equipment, and still improve vs just powered by diesel engines directly.
crote 2y ago
Endurance is a relatively simple problem to solve: just add more batteries. It's already a 14-ton vehicle, adding another ton or two of batteries probably won't be a dealbreaker. Worst-case scenario you put them in a trailer for long-endurance scenarios - they often already need one to bring a variety of buckets to the work site. There's a more interesting question, in my opinion: what happens when it inevitably runs out? Diesel is of course absolutely trivial. It can be refueled from any petrol station, you can bring your own barrel with a small pump, or even use a jerrycan. Easy to use both in urban areas and out in the boonies. Battery is a bit trickier. Worksite electric hookups and superchargers are viable urban options, and in remote areas you could use some kind of generator. Hydrogen, on the other hand, is a bit of a nightmare. Demand for hydrogen is unlikely to be high enough to warrant a very dense network of fueling stations, so even in urban areas it's going to take a significant amount of time to refuel. And in rural areas you're screwed: a fueling station could be hundreds of miles / kilometers away, and you're not exactly going to fill up a jerrycan with hydrogen either! There's no way you are refueling it on-site, having a regular worker messing around with hundreds or thousands of liters of hydrogen at 600x atmospheric pressure or cryogenic temperatures is just waiting for an accident to happen.
- petra 2y ago
  There's work done on storing hydrogen in special liquids. If that works, there still are a lot of issues, but maybe it could fit heavy vehicles.
  - vrighter 2y ago
    which drastically reduces its energy density

Would it be possible to achieve the same 8 hours of operation between charges?

by zppln 2y ago

Would it be possible to achieve the same 8 hours of operation between charges?

Retric 2y ago

Yes. Hydrogen has even worse issues with total energy storage in these kinds of appliances than batteries.

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
But one can bring hydrogen with an electric truck…
- Retric 2y ago
  Hydrogen work vehicles require hydrogen storage and delivery. PEV work vehicles can also use hydrogen powered generators on site but they can also use anything from an on-site solar to a standard grid connection. As long as 98% of our hydrogen is coming from fossil fuels it’s only a net negative here.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    Whatever, good luck hauling electricity on a truck. We’re talking in the context of „you’re building a new highway, good luck getting enough electricity to charge those machines in that place”. What, you gonna haul your solar farm as the construction moves on for dozens of miles?
    - Loudergood 2y ago
      Is it time to bring up swappable batteries again? You could truck in a trailer just like diesel.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        do that
    - Retric 2y ago
      Why exactly would you want to haul electricity using a truck a rather than wires exactly? PEV’s are often more convenient and cheaper to use on a work site than diesel and are actually being adopted for that reason, it’s hydrogen that’s lacking distribution infrastructure.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        > and are actually being adopted Care to share some examples?
        Retric 2y ago
        Look at the caterpillar line of EV vehicles they are becoming quite popular. Ex: 798 AC a 372 metric ton payload truck https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/off-highway-trucks/mining-trucks/15970073.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/off-highway... At the other end mini EV excavators are also becoming quite popular ex: Volvo ECR25, Bobcat E19e, etc
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Are you seriously showing me a mining truck and some micro machines you can use to dig a trench in your garden as an example of EV machines being „adopted”? Do you even know what makes those mining trucks functional for this use case? The deeper the mine, the more effective they are!
        Retric 2y ago
        Yes, people buying EV work vehicles are examples of EV work vehicles being adopted, which is pushing manufacturers to make ever more diversified product lines. A work crew putting in a trench really benefits from the equipment being quit. What you think of as “digging in your garden” is just one of plentiful examples of home construction scale equipment. There’s a lot of equipment that fits such purposes like rollers for people’s driveways etc. Here’s a preproduction equivalent to the hydrogen prototype mentioned in the article: 320 Electric Medium Excavator Operating weight: 22–24 metric tons | 48,501–52,911 lb Bucket capacity: 1.3 m³ | 1.7 yd³ https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/construction/electric-products.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/construction/electric-...

themaninthedark 2y ago

Try 10 to 12 hours as most construction jobs are waiting on weather and run overtime when they can. Second, where is the charge point when you are building a new highway? Roads are usually the first to go in, so if you have to spend an hour driving to a charge point, that's an hour of productive lost

dylan604 2y ago
Simple, you run a diesel powered generator! /s If it's out in the boonies, yeah, power usually follows the roads. If it's existing infrastructure being upgraded, just tap in to what is already there
- tfourb 2y ago
  You may laugh, but running an optimized diesel generator to charge battery-powered heavy vehicles can be much more energy efficient than running the vehicles directly on diesel engines. Check out Edison Motors, who are in the process of developing a mass-market diesel-electric hybrid truck: https://www.youtube.com/@EdisonMotors https://www.youtube.com/@EdisonMotors
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  Apropos YouTube video was served to me: https://youtube.com/shorts/BvC9oLeqOfY?si=Fj_Yxeq636IGBIhC https://youtube.com/shorts/BvC9oLeqOfY?si=Fj_Yxeq636IGBIhC I like electric vehicles, they make sense. I think most construction workers would like electric equipment as well, not as loud, less fumes, less heat. Overall better but it has to make sense. Large mine trucks are either electric or hybrid. They recharge as they go into the pit.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Well, the guy in the YT video is clearly not logical. One diesel genny feeding all of those trucks vs all of those trucks being ICE powered. Some people just can't connect the dots. Modern train engines are just diesel powered generators pushing electric motors. That's how they can claim 100mpg. They could do similar to the construction equipment, and still improve vs just powered by diesel engines directly.

crote 2y ago

Endurance is a relatively simple problem to solve: just add more batteries. It's already a 14-ton vehicle, adding another ton or two of batteries probably won't be a dealbreaker. Worst-case scenario you put them in a trailer for long-endurance scenarios - they often already need one to bring a variety of buckets to the work site. There's a more interesting question, in my opinion: what happens when it inevitably runs out? Diesel is of course absolutely trivial. It can be refueled from any petrol station, you can bring your own barrel with a small pump, or even use a jerrycan. Easy to use both in urban areas and out in the boonies. Battery is a bit trickier. Worksite electric hookups and superchargers are viable urban options, and in remote areas you could use some kind of generator. Hydrogen, on the other hand, is a bit of a nightmare. Demand for hydrogen is unlikely to be high enough to warrant a very dense network of fueling stations, so even in urban areas it's going to take a significant amount of time to refuel. And in rural areas you're screwed: a fueling station could be hundreds of miles / kilometers away, and you're not exactly going to fill up a jerrycan with hydrogen either! There's no way you are refueling it on-site, having a regular worker messing around with hundreds or thousands of liters of hydrogen at 600x atmospheric pressure or cryogenic temperatures is just waiting for an accident to happen.

petra 2y ago
There's work done on storing hydrogen in special liquids. If that works, there still are a lot of issues, but maybe it could fit heavy vehicles.
- vrighter 2y ago
  which drastically reduces its energy density