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>has to shut off it's engine to reduce fuel consumption Which government, what car feature? It sounds like idling shutoff that saves you money, reduces pollut

>has to shut off it's engine to reduce fuel consumption Which government, what car feature? It sounds like idling shutoff that saves you money, reduces pollution, and reduces fuel consumption, eg when you stop to wait for traffic lights?

bdavbdav 2y ago
Every western government pretty much.
randunel 2y ago
You cannot buy a car in Europe without: - lights permanently on ("safety", definitely not for your ability to get lost in the dark) - continuously stores logs of speed, brakes, seatbelts, signal, vehicle inclination, GSM connection etc ("safety", called "black box" in Europe, also warns the driver when local speed limit exceeded) - permanent GSM connection ("safety", definitely not for tracking, pinky promise!) - continuously monitoring the driver's head/face ("safety", called driver drowsiness warning) - engine turns off when stationary (the default setting can't be changed by the user, but by a car service with the right tools) - car brakes on its own ("safety", but it's so bad I turn it off every time I power it on, it brakes when someone nearby but not right in front of you slows down, cannot be disabled permanently) - signals left/right at least 3 times
- PeterStuer 2y ago
  You can. You just wouldn't be allowed to run it on the public road.
- jpc0 2y ago
  - mandatory seat belts - doors that close and remain closed - airbags None of the things you mentioned are particularly an issue with the regulations, they legitimately assist in situations where they are meant to assist. If some feature is mildly inconvenient to you but saves the life of another human being then I feel you can live with the inconvenience. If you made an argument about subscriptions for heater seating or carplay or some nonsense then you have a valid argument and is in the same line as DRM, mandated actual safety feature not do much.
  - randunel 2y ago
    Let me enable the features that I consider I might need, such as permanent logging of speed, seatbelts, inclination, etc. Let me disable the features I don't want when I don't want them. Cars sold to the police have the option to not have their lights permanently on, so it is definitely possible / software setting, it's just inaccessible to regular users.
    - vasco 2y ago
      When some dude runs you over and your family can't prove they were speeding without the data you enjoy these things very much. It would've saved me quite a bit of headache for example.
      - ipaddr 2y ago
        Having the lights on during the day doesn't help. Having data on every single thing someone does would be handy for all future crimes. Why don't we push for that level of surveillance. Because we are trying to balance with privacy.
        gwill 2y ago
        having lights on during the day absolutely helps, especially when overcast or foggy.
        randunel 2y ago
        Maybe, but why not let me turn them off when I want to?
        jdiff 2y ago
        Because it's not always about you. A lot of examples on why these features are useful are about others who exist around you, not for your own convenience. You live in a society.
- noja 2y ago
  > engine turns off when stationary (the default setting can't be changed by the user, but by a car service with the right tools) Yes it can.
  - randunel 2y ago
    For cars sold nowadays, users can deactivate that every time they turn the car on, but the default cannot be changed without vendor specific OBD commands.
    - consp 2y ago
      You should complain to your car manufacturer as it is a cheat to comply with emission regulation. If they meet it without it can be permanently disabled by the user.
- Ensorceled 2y ago
  Why do you keep putting "safety" in quotes? The only one that isn't actually a proven safety feature is the permanent GSM connection.
  - randunel 2y ago
    How is the black box a safety feature? The word "safety" is used by everyone nowadays when they don't have actual arguments for things they impose on others.
    - matwood 2y ago
      > How is the black box a safety feature? This is pretty obvious. Having a black box helps better understand what happened and what may need to change to avoid future accidents. This is clearly different than always transmitting my speed and writing tickets without context.
    - Ensorceled 2y ago
      The black boxes from the American Eagle jet and the black hawk helicopter have been recovered and will be used to figure out what happened, hopefully helping to prevent future tragedies.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      Well you see, if I'm driving too fast and I cause a crash - I might lie and claim I wasn't driving too fast. The black box, by providing evidence to prosecute me, makes the roads safer for other people as while I'm in prison, I can't cause any further accidents. But it doesn't make me all that much safer, prison is a dangerous place.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        What a bunch of BS. Are you blind to how the world works? The only time a black box ever gets used for that stuff is when an agent of the state or corporation with deep pockets to buy power or other "more equal animal" is trying to get one over of one of us peasants. When speed is a serious factor it is generally obvious from the results of the crash anyway.
- consp 2y ago
  > lights permanently on This is wrong. You can turn them off. Even DRL. If your car cannot you should complain to the manufacturer or live in one of the very few states requiring it. > engine turns off when stationary My previous car had a button specifically to disable it and it did so permanently. My current one doesn't need to. > car brakes on its own This is a manufacturer choice. Buy another car. Mine can be user disabled permanently. > signals left/right at least 3 times Manufacturer choice, usually for the non-flip indicator mechanic, which you likely can configure. If you flip it fully it might only do one, you should try it.
- k4rli 2y ago
  You certainly can still buy a decent car in 2025 but it's gonna have to be <2015 model year. None of my three cars have any of this nonsense.
themaninthedark 2y ago
Sure, you save money in gasoline usage but you spend in starter replacement. What's the environmental impact of the burnt gasoline vs manufacturing and replacement of starters?
- kj4ips 2y ago
  The starters used in start/stop vehicles are far more robust than normal ones, and start/stop in hybrids often don't even use the normal starter to turn the engine over. Because vehicles are often kept for quite some time, most start-stop systems will autodisable after a certain number of cycles, so that they only use a given portion of the starter's expected life. (disables the start/stop system, not the starter itself)
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    Theoretically yes, however: Currently Honda has a recall for ~40K vehicles as their start stop ends with stall. Kia & Hyundai : 92,000 vehicles because the electronic controller for the Idle Stop & Go oil pump assembly may contain damaged electrical components that can cause the pump controller to overheat. Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2017-2019 Pacifica vehicles equipped with engine stop/start systems. A loose battery ground connection may result in an intermittent loss of power steering assist and/or a stall. You add more complexity and there is more chance for things to break. Also consider "Value" engineering, I can't find any data but I would be interested to see if the warranty periods for auto idle starters are longer or shorter than for the old style. We saw this play out with the DEF system for engines, the systems were supposed to be robust and instead you end up with systems that break, harder to diagnose due to lockdown, and premature failure of components. I personal know of one manufacturer where the DEF tanks started failing after 6 months, the ammonia in the DEF was ingress into the sensors. This only started 2 years ago, so well after the systems were introduced.
    - dehrmann 2y ago
      > Honda has a recall for ~40K vehicles as their start stop ends with stall Not a Honda, but one time, I accelerated aggressively from engine-off stop and stalled in a way that wouldn't have happened if the engine were idling.

bdavbdav 2y ago

Every western government pretty much.

randunel 2y ago

You cannot buy a car in Europe without: - lights permanently on ("safety", definitely not for your ability to get lost in the dark) - continuously stores logs of speed, brakes, seatbelts, signal, vehicle inclination, GSM connection etc ("safety", called "black box" in Europe, also warns the driver when local speed limit exceeded) - permanent GSM connection ("safety", definitely not for tracking, pinky promise!) - continuously monitoring the driver's head/face ("safety", called driver drowsiness warning) - engine turns off when stationary (the default setting can't be changed by the user, but by a car service with the right tools) - car brakes on its own ("safety", but it's so bad I turn it off every time I power it on, it brakes when someone nearby but not right in front of you slows down, cannot be disabled permanently) - signals left/right at least 3 times

PeterStuer 2y ago
You can. You just wouldn't be allowed to run it on the public road.
jpc0 2y ago
- mandatory seat belts - doors that close and remain closed - airbags None of the things you mentioned are particularly an issue with the regulations, they legitimately assist in situations where they are meant to assist. If some feature is mildly inconvenient to you but saves the life of another human being then I feel you can live with the inconvenience. If you made an argument about subscriptions for heater seating or carplay or some nonsense then you have a valid argument and is in the same line as DRM, mandated actual safety feature not do much.
- randunel 2y ago
  Let me enable the features that I consider I might need, such as permanent logging of speed, seatbelts, inclination, etc. Let me disable the features I don't want when I don't want them. Cars sold to the police have the option to not have their lights permanently on, so it is definitely possible / software setting, it's just inaccessible to regular users.
  - vasco 2y ago
    When some dude runs you over and your family can't prove they were speeding without the data you enjoy these things very much. It would've saved me quite a bit of headache for example.
    - ipaddr 2y ago
      Having the lights on during the day doesn't help. Having data on every single thing someone does would be handy for all future crimes. Why don't we push for that level of surveillance. Because we are trying to balance with privacy.
      - gwill 2y ago
        having lights on during the day absolutely helps, especially when overcast or foggy.
        randunel 2y ago
        Maybe, but why not let me turn them off when I want to?
        jdiff 2y ago
        Because it's not always about you. A lot of examples on why these features are useful are about others who exist around you, not for your own convenience. You live in a society.
noja 2y ago
> engine turns off when stationary (the default setting can't be changed by the user, but by a car service with the right tools) Yes it can.
- randunel 2y ago
  For cars sold nowadays, users can deactivate that every time they turn the car on, but the default cannot be changed without vendor specific OBD commands.
  - consp 2y ago
    You should complain to your car manufacturer as it is a cheat to comply with emission regulation. If they meet it without it can be permanently disabled by the user.
Ensorceled 2y ago
Why do you keep putting "safety" in quotes? The only one that isn't actually a proven safety feature is the permanent GSM connection.
- randunel 2y ago
  How is the black box a safety feature? The word "safety" is used by everyone nowadays when they don't have actual arguments for things they impose on others.
  - matwood 2y ago
    > How is the black box a safety feature? This is pretty obvious. Having a black box helps better understand what happened and what may need to change to avoid future accidents. This is clearly different than always transmitting my speed and writing tickets without context.
  - Ensorceled 2y ago
    The black boxes from the American Eagle jet and the black hawk helicopter have been recovered and will be used to figure out what happened, hopefully helping to prevent future tragedies.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    Well you see, if I'm driving too fast and I cause a crash - I might lie and claim I wasn't driving too fast. The black box, by providing evidence to prosecute me, makes the roads safer for other people as while I'm in prison, I can't cause any further accidents. But it doesn't make me all that much safer, prison is a dangerous place.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      What a bunch of BS. Are you blind to how the world works? The only time a black box ever gets used for that stuff is when an agent of the state or corporation with deep pockets to buy power or other "more equal animal" is trying to get one over of one of us peasants. When speed is a serious factor it is generally obvious from the results of the crash anyway.
consp 2y ago
> lights permanently on This is wrong. You can turn them off. Even DRL. If your car cannot you should complain to the manufacturer or live in one of the very few states requiring it. > engine turns off when stationary My previous car had a button specifically to disable it and it did so permanently. My current one doesn't need to. > car brakes on its own This is a manufacturer choice. Buy another car. Mine can be user disabled permanently. > signals left/right at least 3 times Manufacturer choice, usually for the non-flip indicator mechanic, which you likely can configure. If you flip it fully it might only do one, you should try it.
k4rli 2y ago
You certainly can still buy a decent car in 2025 but it's gonna have to be <2015 model year. None of my three cars have any of this nonsense.

themaninthedark 2y ago

Sure, you save money in gasoline usage but you spend in starter replacement. What's the environmental impact of the burnt gasoline vs manufacturing and replacement of starters?

kj4ips 2y ago
The starters used in start/stop vehicles are far more robust than normal ones, and start/stop in hybrids often don't even use the normal starter to turn the engine over. Because vehicles are often kept for quite some time, most start-stop systems will autodisable after a certain number of cycles, so that they only use a given portion of the starter's expected life. (disables the start/stop system, not the starter itself)
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  Theoretically yes, however: Currently Honda has a recall for ~40K vehicles as their start stop ends with stall. Kia & Hyundai : 92,000 vehicles because the electronic controller for the Idle Stop & Go oil pump assembly may contain damaged electrical components that can cause the pump controller to overheat. Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2017-2019 Pacifica vehicles equipped with engine stop/start systems. A loose battery ground connection may result in an intermittent loss of power steering assist and/or a stall. You add more complexity and there is more chance for things to break. Also consider "Value" engineering, I can't find any data but I would be interested to see if the warranty periods for auto idle starters are longer or shorter than for the old style. We saw this play out with the DEF system for engines, the systems were supposed to be robust and instead you end up with systems that break, harder to diagnose due to lockdown, and premature failure of components. I personal know of one manufacturer where the DEF tanks started failing after 6 months, the ammonia in the DEF was ingress into the sensors. This only started 2 years ago, so well after the systems were introduced.
  - dehrmann 2y ago
    > Honda has a recall for ~40K vehicles as their start stop ends with stall Not a Honda, but one time, I accelerated aggressively from engine-off stop and stalled in a way that wouldn't have happened if the engine were idling.