5 ms·

Hiring controllers is not easy. A friend's daughter just went through the hiring process. She graduated from college with an appropriate degree right as COVID h

by NaOH 2y ago

Hiring controllers is not easy. A friend's daughter just went through the hiring process. She graduated from college with an appropriate degree right as COVID hit. Her FAA application wasn't accepted for four years. This past summer she did the four-week interactive online courses. Applicants must pass this and may not re-enter the program if they do not. After that she did the six-week courses in Oklahoma City. Again, applicants must pass this and may not re-enter the program if they do not. She passed. Only half her class of 20 passed. In the prior class, only 4 of 15 passed. She declined the position when they could not offer a position within reasonable proximity of her family. She, too, may not re-enter the program. On top of all that, the program has strict age requirements because there's a mandatory retirement age (55, I believe). There isn't a large pool of applicants and the percentage of successful ones is not high. Considering the amount of lives on the line, it's understandable the hiring criteria is strict. All told, it's not an easy position to fill and even explicit efforts to increase the number of applicants will take years. Just like many other skilled fields.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
> appropriate degree what's considered an appropriate degree for ATC?
- NaOH 2y ago
  In her case it was a Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration. There may be other programs or concentrations which are acceptable.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Since the chances of landing an ATC job are so slim with the degree, what kind of job options does that degree afford you? What kind of job did she end up taking (or doing while waiting on the FAA)?
    - NaOH 2y ago
      While waiting for the FAA and since declining the ATC position she's worked at her family's auto repair shop. Pre-FAA she did repair work and for the last few months since returning she's more on the management side. She hasn't yet decided if the family business or something else is the career she wants.
  - kristjansson 2y ago
    > Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration I’m not that far removed from my time in college, but I’m shocked by the specificity of that.
    - NaOH 2y ago
      Here's the FAA overview of what the agency calls the Air Traffic-Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Program: https://www.faa.gov/jobs/students/schools https://www.faa.gov/jobs/students/schools
- nradov 2y ago
  No college degree is officially required. Candidates with aviation related degrees probably have a better chance of making it through. But there are plenty of working controllers who have only a high school diploma or learned the job as enlisted military personnel. "Have either one year of general work experience or four years of education leading to a bachelor’s degree, or a combination of both" https://www.faa.gov/be-atc https://www.faa.gov/be-atc
bpodgursky 2y ago
[flagged]
- NaOH 2y ago
  She was not rejected.
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    I think they're talking about her application being ignored for four years.
    - NaOH 2y ago
      Maybe. The article talks about "how the Obama-era FAA practiced discrimination in its hiring processes," which wouldn't apply to the woman I know. But it's not an in-depth article so it is possible such practices were still in place through Trump's first term and post-COVID when FAA hiring ramped up and would have affected the person I know.
- hirsin 2y ago
  Except that she was not rejected - she rejected them. She simply couldn't get a match with a job that worked for her.
kbaker 2y ago
Another problem is the maximum entry age for the ATC school - if you are over the age of 31 you can't apply.
mvdtnz 2y ago
[flagged]
- peblos 2y ago
  Requirements are strict in other countries as well. It comes with the nature of the job.
  - consp 2y ago
    A friend of mine found out he is color blind that way. Not the most common one which you can detect by the tests which are in every biology book here but a rarer variant which is immediately disqualifying. He had to go through weeks of testing as well if that was not the case. Though here you'd be place within 300km of your home so less issues of closeness to family.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Practically all laws, rules, and regulations in aviation were written with the blood of those who, well, sadly had to embrace the Earth so to speak. On the face of it they may look discriminatory, especially the age restrictions, but the FAA will be more than happy to cite objective and scientific evidence supporting them which were, again, written in blood.
UltraSane 2y ago
Not being allowed to re-enter the program is just insane.
- perihelions 2y ago
  Isn't it a reasonable filter? I'd (naively) assume that all things being equal, a person who passes a test on the first attempt, is more likely to have a higher innate ability than one who doesn't. Is this wrong?
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    Imagine if they only let people take the bar exam once.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - michaelt 2y ago
    That depends on the test, and the training surrounding it. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement to be 6 feet tall and there's nothing candidates can do to get taller - then once you've measured under 6 feet there's no point in re-testing you. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement that you be able to lift a 90 lbs weight, a lot of people will fail - but if they hit the gym, in a month or two they'll be able to pass easily. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement that you be able to lift a 90 lbs weight, but before the test every applicant goes through a 6 month strength training program, so we test them at absolute peak strength? Re-testing would be a waste of time, except in a few cases like if someone had a loved one die just before the final test. If I'm hiring for a job with a written test, the test draws a random selection of questions from a question bank, and some questions are much easier than others? There might be a substantial random element to the results. If re-testing people produces substantially different scores, probably that indicates I need to improve the design of my test.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    Yes, wrong I think. People's performance varies from day to day, and if doing the test just once, then some people will pass it because of good luck shape that day, although another day they would have failed. When constantly predictable high performance is important, it makes sense to do the test on a bunch of different occasions, and look at the overall result (like, lowest, median and average scores). And it'd be ok to do a bit worse on one occasion, as long as you were always above the minimum. Rather than in effect randomly picking just one test result. Looking at the results from many tests, reduces false negatives, but also false positives. (And of course if studying and practice matters, getting to re-take the test some years later: yes of course, but possibly the test should then be a little bit longer.)
mplanchard 2y ago
In addition, ATC is not allowed to go on strike, limiting the degree to which they can bargain for better working conditions, pay, etc.
- xienze 2y ago
  Then why is there an ATC union if, apparently, it can't affect any change?
  - mplanchard 2y ago
    Union predates the legal ban on striking, and still represents employees, even though their actual power has been significantly neutered.
  - RandomBacon 2y ago
    There is a law that the govt has to negotiate in good faith. Presumably while they could say "no" to everything, it would be hard to prove that was "good faith" if the union takes them to court.
  - kristjansson 2y ago
    The ATC union has some unique history [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_...
  - smcin 2y ago
    In the US, most public-sector unions incl. transport workers are essentially not allowed strike under the Railway Labor Act unless they have exhausted all mandatory federal negotiation/ mediation (nominally on the grounds that it could cripple the economy). This was also an issue in the 2022 US freight rail labor dispute where Biden, Pelosi and Congress passed a law to criminalize the prospect of rail strike. [0][1] If the freight staffing level cuts had been reversed, it's quite likely the 2/2023 East Palestine, OH train derailment and $$bn environmental disaster [2] would have been avoided. The freight companies, in the name of efficiency and slashing staffing levels, had combined multiple trains into one huge one (which has a higher risk of derailing, and larger size of derailment.) To your question, it would be good if the US had a nonpartisan setup for balancing profit and efficiency vs safety and conditions, but that's not the case. Since the time of Reagan and the 1981 PATCO strike. Curious if there's any objective comparison between China and US how freight rail is operated. But then the Chinese freight rail is state-owned which largely removes the profit incentive for cutting safety. Compared to the US, China has almost no freight rail disasters, and it has more freight traffic. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33781421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33781421 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_railroad_labor_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_railroad_la... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Palestine,_Ohio,_train_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Palestine,_Ohio,_train_de...
datadrivenangel 2y ago
And current controllers are often working 60-70+ weeks because of the understaffing...
throwaway36482 2y ago
Their candidate success rate would probably be higher if they weren’t rejecting the vast majority of their most-qualified applicants for reasons that are clearly pretextual: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-...
- tristor 2y ago
  That's shocking and disturbing, and is pretty much a textbook example of exactly the type of thing opponents to DEI have been referring to for how DEI and Affirmative Action result in a lowering of the bar. They explicitly structured things so that ATC hiring was pre-restricted for non-cognitive (e.g. merit) reasons, and failed out candidates that scored a perfect score on the cognitive test on the basis of their demographics (they weren't minorities).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - talldayo 2y ago
    ATC (as well as most government jobs) are a real case of "you get what you pay for". When you bring wages down so low that educated engineers don't want to work your job, your options are to lower the qualifications or leave empty seats. DEI might have contributed to this, but we wouldn't be hiring unqualified people in the first place if America could naturally compete for talent. The lesson learned seems to be less about the dangers of diversity and more about how the feds aren't paying the industry rate for professionals.
    - tristor 2y ago
      Did you read the link that I replied to? Because in that link, what I am responding to, it EXPLICITLY says that the FAA changed the ATC selection process to exclude candidates based on demographics (being not diverse) regardless of their aptitude as tested using a standardized and validated cognitive assessment. These were candidates who had already completed multiple years of schooling and explicitly wanted to be ATCs, so you are talking about a pipeline problem which may or may not exist but is irrelevant to the article I am responding to in the link above my comment. Per that article, candidates who accepted the pay terms and wanted to become ATCs were /rejected/ explicitly because they were not minorities or otherwise able to produce a biographical or demographic reason for acceptance, even when they scored a perfect score on the standardized aptitude assessment. If you have something to refute the article the person above me linked, I'd love to see it because I'm incredibly disappointed in what I read about in that article.
bradfox2 2y ago
This is, justifiably, very similar to nuclear reactor operators. Pay needs to reflect the working conditions to attract more people (it does for reactor operators).
commandlinefan 2y ago
> the four-week interactive online courses Yikes, is that paid, or is the candidate supposed to do that on their own time?
- RandomBacon 2y ago
  Paid

by NaOH 2y ago

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> appropriate degree what's considered an appropriate degree for ATC?

NaOH 2y ago
In her case it was a Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration. There may be other programs or concentrations which are acceptable.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Since the chances of landing an ATC job are so slim with the degree, what kind of job options does that degree afford you? What kind of job did she end up taking (or doing while waiting on the FAA)?
  - NaOH 2y ago
    While waiting for the FAA and since declining the ATC position she's worked at her family's auto repair shop. Pre-FAA she did repair work and for the last few months since returning she's more on the management side. She hasn't yet decided if the family business or something else is the career she wants.
- kristjansson 2y ago
  > Bachelors in Aviation and Aerospace Science with an Air Traffic Control Concentration I’m not that far removed from my time in college, but I’m shocked by the specificity of that.
  - NaOH 2y ago
    Here's the FAA overview of what the agency calls the Air Traffic-Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Program: https://www.faa.gov/jobs/students/schools https://www.faa.gov/jobs/students/schools
nradov 2y ago
No college degree is officially required. Candidates with aviation related degrees probably have a better chance of making it through. But there are plenty of working controllers who have only a high school diploma or learned the job as enlisted military personnel. "Have either one year of general work experience or four years of education leading to a bachelor’s degree, or a combination of both" https://www.faa.gov/be-atc https://www.faa.gov/be-atc

bpodgursky 2y ago

[flagged]

NaOH 2y ago
She was not rejected.
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  I think they're talking about her application being ignored for four years.
  - NaOH 2y ago
    Maybe. The article talks about "how the Obama-era FAA practiced discrimination in its hiring processes," which wouldn't apply to the woman I know. But it's not an in-depth article so it is possible such practices were still in place through Trump's first term and post-COVID when FAA hiring ramped up and would have affected the person I know.
hirsin 2y ago
Except that she was not rejected - she rejected them. She simply couldn't get a match with a job that worked for her.

kbaker 2y ago

Another problem is the maximum entry age for the ATC school - if you are over the age of 31 you can't apply.

mvdtnz 2y ago

[flagged]

peblos 2y ago
Requirements are strict in other countries as well. It comes with the nature of the job.
- consp 2y ago
  A friend of mine found out he is color blind that way. Not the most common one which you can detect by the tests which are in every biology book here but a rarer variant which is immediately disqualifying. He had to go through weeks of testing as well if that was not the case. Though here you'd be place within 300km of your home so less issues of closeness to family.
Dalewyn 2y ago
Practically all laws, rules, and regulations in aviation were written with the blood of those who, well, sadly had to embrace the Earth so to speak. On the face of it they may look discriminatory, especially the age restrictions, but the FAA will be more than happy to cite objective and scientific evidence supporting them which were, again, written in blood.

UltraSane 2y ago

Not being allowed to re-enter the program is just insane.

perihelions 2y ago
Isn't it a reasonable filter? I'd (naively) assume that all things being equal, a person who passes a test on the first attempt, is more likely to have a higher innate ability than one who doesn't. Is this wrong?
- UltraSane 2y ago
  Imagine if they only let people take the bar exam once.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- michaelt 2y ago
  That depends on the test, and the training surrounding it. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement to be 6 feet tall and there's nothing candidates can do to get taller - then once you've measured under 6 feet there's no point in re-testing you. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement that you be able to lift a 90 lbs weight, a lot of people will fail - but if they hit the gym, in a month or two they'll be able to pass easily. If I'm hiring for a job where there's a strict requirement that you be able to lift a 90 lbs weight, but before the test every applicant goes through a 6 month strength training program, so we test them at absolute peak strength? Re-testing would be a waste of time, except in a few cases like if someone had a loved one die just before the final test. If I'm hiring for a job with a written test, the test draws a random selection of questions from a question bank, and some questions are much easier than others? There might be a substantial random element to the results. If re-testing people produces substantially different scores, probably that indicates I need to improve the design of my test.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  Yes, wrong I think. People's performance varies from day to day, and if doing the test just once, then some people will pass it because of good luck shape that day, although another day they would have failed. When constantly predictable high performance is important, it makes sense to do the test on a bunch of different occasions, and look at the overall result (like, lowest, median and average scores). And it'd be ok to do a bit worse on one occasion, as long as you were always above the minimum. Rather than in effect randomly picking just one test result. Looking at the results from many tests, reduces false negatives, but also false positives. (And of course if studying and practice matters, getting to re-take the test some years later: yes of course, but possibly the test should then be a little bit longer.)

mplanchard 2y ago

In addition, ATC is not allowed to go on strike, limiting the degree to which they can bargain for better working conditions, pay, etc.

xienze 2y ago
Then why is there an ATC union if, apparently, it can't affect any change?
- mplanchard 2y ago
  Union predates the legal ban on striking, and still represents employees, even though their actual power has been significantly neutered.
- RandomBacon 2y ago
  There is a law that the govt has to negotiate in good faith. Presumably while they could say "no" to everything, it would be hard to prove that was "good faith" if the union takes them to court.
- kristjansson 2y ago
  The ATC union has some unique history [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_...
- smcin 2y ago
  In the US, most public-sector unions incl. transport workers are essentially not allowed strike under the Railway Labor Act unless they have exhausted all mandatory federal negotiation/ mediation (nominally on the grounds that it could cripple the economy). This was also an issue in the 2022 US freight rail labor dispute where Biden, Pelosi and Congress passed a law to criminalize the prospect of rail strike. [0][1] If the freight staffing level cuts had been reversed, it's quite likely the 2/2023 East Palestine, OH train derailment and $$bn environmental disaster [2] would have been avoided. The freight companies, in the name of efficiency and slashing staffing levels, had combined multiple trains into one huge one (which has a higher risk of derailing, and larger size of derailment.) To your question, it would be good if the US had a nonpartisan setup for balancing profit and efficiency vs safety and conditions, but that's not the case. Since the time of Reagan and the 1981 PATCO strike. Curious if there's any objective comparison between China and US how freight rail is operated. But then the Chinese freight rail is state-owned which largely removes the profit incentive for cutting safety. Compared to the US, China has almost no freight rail disasters, and it has more freight traffic. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33781421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33781421 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_railroad_labor_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_railroad_la... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Palestine,_Ohio,_train_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Palestine,_Ohio,_train_de...

datadrivenangel 2y ago

And current controllers are often working 60-70+ weeks because of the understaffing...

throwaway36482 2y ago

Their candidate success rate would probably be higher if they weren’t rejecting the vast majority of their most-qualified applicants for reasons that are clearly pretextual: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-...

tristor 2y ago
That's shocking and disturbing, and is pretty much a textbook example of exactly the type of thing opponents to DEI have been referring to for how DEI and Affirmative Action result in a lowering of the bar. They explicitly structured things so that ATC hiring was pre-restricted for non-cognitive (e.g. merit) reasons, and failed out candidates that scored a perfect score on the cognitive test on the basis of their demographics (they weren't minorities).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- talldayo 2y ago
  ATC (as well as most government jobs) are a real case of "you get what you pay for". When you bring wages down so low that educated engineers don't want to work your job, your options are to lower the qualifications or leave empty seats. DEI might have contributed to this, but we wouldn't be hiring unqualified people in the first place if America could naturally compete for talent. The lesson learned seems to be less about the dangers of diversity and more about how the feds aren't paying the industry rate for professionals.
  - tristor 2y ago
    Did you read the link that I replied to? Because in that link, what I am responding to, it EXPLICITLY says that the FAA changed the ATC selection process to exclude candidates based on demographics (being not diverse) regardless of their aptitude as tested using a standardized and validated cognitive assessment. These were candidates who had already completed multiple years of schooling and explicitly wanted to be ATCs, so you are talking about a pipeline problem which may or may not exist but is irrelevant to the article I am responding to in the link above my comment. Per that article, candidates who accepted the pay terms and wanted to become ATCs were /rejected/ explicitly because they were not minorities or otherwise able to produce a biographical or demographic reason for acceptance, even when they scored a perfect score on the standardized aptitude assessment. If you have something to refute the article the person above me linked, I'd love to see it because I'm incredibly disappointed in what I read about in that article.

bradfox2 2y ago

This is, justifiably, very similar to nuclear reactor operators. Pay needs to reflect the working conditions to attract more people (it does for reactor operators).

commandlinefan 2y ago

> the four-week interactive online courses Yikes, is that paid, or is the candidate supposed to do that on their own time?

RandomBacon 2y ago
Paid