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One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. While analyses of reading and

One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. While analyses of reading and literacy skills are generally intended to reflect how our educational system is doing. So obviously, we need to control for immigration rates in these analyses. For assessment of our educational system, ideally we'd only be reporting for children and adults born in the US. (And then breaking out non-native speakers in their own categories to measure their ESL performance rates.) Because a child (or adult) might have superb literacy in Spanish, but show up as illiterate in English. And these studies generally aren't accounting for that at all.

cf100clunk 2y ago
[flagged]
- echelon 2y ago
  Ideally we'd capture many more features for analysis. Immigration history, socioeconomic status, parental education, etc. If we want to improve outcomes, more data helps.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  The claim was that immigrant children were likely to be less literate in English. Your claim that immigrants (as an entire group) may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born is a bit more tenuous, and ignores lower income/lesser educated immigrants from Mexico/central/America/Eastern Africa in favor of more educated immigrants from India/Philippines/China (well, Asia in general). But I don't think the numbers really bare your claim out, even if we don't throw in illegal immigrants and/or refugees.
  - cf100clunk 2y ago
    > I don't think the numbers really bare your claim out I'm not claiming any numbers. My words bear that out.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      Your whole comment: > Only US-born people are literate in English? Wow, I hope you'll rethink that because on a case-by-case basis, immigrants may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born. You made a vague claim with two weasel words that alluded to immigrants having higher English literacy than US-born. They claim you were replying to was referring to overall rates, not case-by-case rates (obviously you compare one person to another person you can get any kind of result, but we are comparing groups instead).
- crazygringo 2y ago
  >> ideally we'd only be reporting for children and adults born in the US. > Only US-born people are literate in English? Wow, I hope you'll rethink that because on a case-by-case basis, immigrants may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born. I don't know where you got that. My comment clearly stated: > immigrants who don't speak English well > to reflect how our educational system is doing So yes, if we want to judge our educational system, then someone who grew up in Norway with perfect English is also quite irrelevant to that. I never said immigrants as a whole don't speak English well. I clearly said the ones who don't speak English well. Which, of course, there are many, and there is a recent uptick. I'm not saying anything political here.
  - cf100clunk 2y ago
    The kid who grew up in Norway who is now sitting in a U.S. public school classroom may very well have higher English literacy and proficiency. Also, I admit that when I read your ''don't speak English well'' comment I assumed you also meant reading and writing.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      > The kid who grew up in Norway who is now sitting in a U.S. public school classroom may very well have higher English literacy and proficiency. Yes, of course. But if they learned English in Norway, then their performance isn't a reflection of the US school system, and so doesn't reflect on its educational quality. Does that make sense? > I admit that when I read your ''don't saeek English well'' comment I assumed you also meant reading and writing. I did, of course. It's pretty rare to be good at reading and writing a language without being able to speak it too.
      - cf100clunk 2y ago
        > It's pretty rare to be good at reading and writing a language without being able to speak it too After a long career in global tech I have to take issue with that, but then I'd be relying on my own memories of colleagues, bosses, and hires, and not quantifiable data. We're discussing school kids, after all.
- MrZander 2y ago
  If the point of this metric is to gauge how well US schools are teaching literacy, we should only include people who went through the US school system. Which means we should exclude immigrants, both literate and illiterate, from the reporting.
  - cf100clunk 2y ago
    I'd like to include that pools of U.S. born children exposed to children of immigrants in their classroom who have higher English literacy and proficiency may very well benefit from an almost osmosis-like effect. This would seem to be not countable under the metric you're suggesting.
sitkack 2y ago
[flagged]
- echelon 2y ago
  Oh goodness, slow it down a bit. The parent isn't casting blame on immigrants whatsoever. They're saying the data might unfairly paint an outlook because it isn't capturing the rich story. If anything, I think the parent is being super delicate in handling this subject and is being respectful and tolerant.
  - cf100clunk 2y ago
    Indeed, that's why I hoped a rewording or rethink would be in order. In my travels, I have encountered high English literacy throughout the world, and would assume that such folks emmigrating to the U.S. would not suddenly be disregarded in research.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Non-native speakers can sometimes speak better English than native speakers, but on average that is generally not the case. It's also worth pointing out that "reading" here seemingly does involve English specifically and not English and Spanish or whatever other language(s) overall. A massive influx of immigrants who likely don't speak English natively, regardless their legality, is inevitably going to cause a drop in English literacy rates unless it's controlled for and I think it's a question worth asking because the methodology isn't immediately obvious.
      - mixmastamyk 2y ago
        Kids, recently from Latin America outnumber well-educated Scandinavians around ~100x here in Southern California, maybe more. This subthread is rather silly.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    > One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. There is no may in that statement. There is no citation of anything. We are not talking about literacy rates, the podcast is about how reading is being taught in schools. GP is poisoning the discussion using immigrants as a cudgel, there is nothing delicate here. What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
losvedir 2y ago
This is a good point, though at the time of my comment it's already attracted several "that's racist" type responses. I think generally you might be getting at Simpson's Paradox[0] where an aggregated trend is in one direction when all the relevant subgroups are in a different direction, and it's just that the makeup and proportions of those subgroups has changed. My father in law is a guidance counselor in Florida. He told me about a school in the county that was ranked very poorly 10 years ago, but is now one of the top. I was curious how they did it, but it apparently had nothing to do with changes in curriculum, but the fact that somehow that area had become a destination for wealthy Chinese international students, and the student body had become dominated by them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox
nkrisc 2y ago
Sounds plausible, but what's the source of the claim?
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  This'll do it - https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/focus_on_naep/student_groups/#/english-learners https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/focus_on_naep/student_grou... From 1998 to 2022 "English learners" (as its their term) tripled from 5% to 14%. They do offer accommodations, but are tested. And fwiw I think they should be, just as are students with learning disabilities. It's because this is your student body, which will become the society of tomorrow. Knowing how that society might look, and in which direction it is trending, can inform decisions being made today to help shape a better society for everybody tomorrow.
trod1234 2y ago
This is just plainly and grossly misinformed. Immigration rates, and their children come no where close to affecting regular educational metrics. The reading comprehension is just that bad, and the people in the know understand why it is that way but bureaucracy props it up while everyone waits for Superman.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Something like 14.3% of the current US population is foreign-born, and we can assume that the proportion of school-age children is somewhere around that as well. About half are from Latin America. That's absolutely going to affect regular education metrics. And it's going to affect it increasingly, as the proportion of foreign-born has risen continuously from 4.7% in 1970 to 14.3% today. There's nothing misinformed about any of this. It's quite possible reading is getting worse among native speakers as well. Or not at all. My point is that you can't tell unless you separate out the two populations in the literacy statistics. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findi...

cf100clunk 2y ago

[flagged]

echelon 2y ago
Ideally we'd capture many more features for analysis. Immigration history, socioeconomic status, parental education, etc. If we want to improve outcomes, more data helps.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
The claim was that immigrant children were likely to be less literate in English. Your claim that immigrants (as an entire group) may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born is a bit more tenuous, and ignores lower income/lesser educated immigrants from Mexico/central/America/Eastern Africa in favor of more educated immigrants from India/Philippines/China (well, Asia in general). But I don't think the numbers really bare your claim out, even if we don't throw in illegal immigrants and/or refugees.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  > I don't think the numbers really bare your claim out I'm not claiming any numbers. My words bear that out.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Your whole comment: > Only US-born people are literate in English? Wow, I hope you'll rethink that because on a case-by-case basis, immigrants may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born. You made a vague claim with two weasel words that alluded to immigrants having higher English literacy than US-born. They claim you were replying to was referring to overall rates, not case-by-case rates (obviously you compare one person to another person you can get any kind of result, but we are comparing groups instead).
crazygringo 2y ago
>> ideally we'd only be reporting for children and adults born in the US. > Only US-born people are literate in English? Wow, I hope you'll rethink that because on a case-by-case basis, immigrants may certainly have higher English literacy than US-born. I don't know where you got that. My comment clearly stated: > immigrants who don't speak English well > to reflect how our educational system is doing So yes, if we want to judge our educational system, then someone who grew up in Norway with perfect English is also quite irrelevant to that. I never said immigrants as a whole don't speak English well. I clearly said the ones who don't speak English well. Which, of course, there are many, and there is a recent uptick. I'm not saying anything political here.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  The kid who grew up in Norway who is now sitting in a U.S. public school classroom may very well have higher English literacy and proficiency. Also, I admit that when I read your ''don't speak English well'' comment I assumed you also meant reading and writing.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    > The kid who grew up in Norway who is now sitting in a U.S. public school classroom may very well have higher English literacy and proficiency. Yes, of course. But if they learned English in Norway, then their performance isn't a reflection of the US school system, and so doesn't reflect on its educational quality. Does that make sense? > I admit that when I read your ''don't saeek English well'' comment I assumed you also meant reading and writing. I did, of course. It's pretty rare to be good at reading and writing a language without being able to speak it too.
    - cf100clunk 2y ago
      > It's pretty rare to be good at reading and writing a language without being able to speak it too After a long career in global tech I have to take issue with that, but then I'd be relying on my own memories of colleagues, bosses, and hires, and not quantifiable data. We're discussing school kids, after all.
MrZander 2y ago
If the point of this metric is to gauge how well US schools are teaching literacy, we should only include people who went through the US school system. Which means we should exclude immigrants, both literate and illiterate, from the reporting.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  I'd like to include that pools of U.S. born children exposed to children of immigrants in their classroom who have higher English literacy and proficiency may very well benefit from an almost osmosis-like effect. This would seem to be not countable under the metric you're suggesting.

sitkack 2y ago

[flagged]

echelon 2y ago
Oh goodness, slow it down a bit. The parent isn't casting blame on immigrants whatsoever. They're saying the data might unfairly paint an outlook because it isn't capturing the rich story. If anything, I think the parent is being super delicate in handling this subject and is being respectful and tolerant.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  Indeed, that's why I hoped a rewording or rethink would be in order. In my travels, I have encountered high English literacy throughout the world, and would assume that such folks emmigrating to the U.S. would not suddenly be disregarded in research.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Non-native speakers can sometimes speak better English than native speakers, but on average that is generally not the case. It's also worth pointing out that "reading" here seemingly does involve English specifically and not English and Spanish or whatever other language(s) overall. A massive influx of immigrants who likely don't speak English natively, regardless their legality, is inevitably going to cause a drop in English literacy rates unless it's controlled for and I think it's a question worth asking because the methodology isn't immediately obvious.
    - mixmastamyk 2y ago
      Kids, recently from Latin America outnumber well-educated Scandinavians around ~100x here in Southern California, maybe more. This subthread is rather silly.
- sitkack 2y ago
  > One factor behind decreasing US literacy rates and reading performance is the uptick of immigrants who don't speak English well. There is no may in that statement. There is no citation of anything. We are not talking about literacy rates, the podcast is about how reading is being taught in schools. GP is poisoning the discussion using immigrants as a cudgel, there is nothing delicate here. What does immigration have to do with the science of teaching reading?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

losvedir 2y ago

This is a good point, though at the time of my comment it's already attracted several "that's racist" type responses. I think generally you might be getting at Simpson's Paradox[0] where an aggregated trend is in one direction when all the relevant subgroups are in a different direction, and it's just that the makeup and proportions of those subgroups has changed. My father in law is a guidance counselor in Florida. He told me about a school in the county that was ranked very poorly 10 years ago, but is now one of the top. I was curious how they did it, but it apparently had nothing to do with changes in curriculum, but the fact that somehow that area had become a destination for wealthy Chinese international students, and the student body had become dominated by them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox

nkrisc 2y ago

Sounds plausible, but what's the source of the claim?

ANewFormation 2y ago
This'll do it - https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/focus_on_naep/student_groups/#/english-learners https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/focus_on_naep/student_grou... From 1998 to 2022 "English learners" (as its their term) tripled from 5% to 14%. They do offer accommodations, but are tested. And fwiw I think they should be, just as are students with learning disabilities. It's because this is your student body, which will become the society of tomorrow. Knowing how that society might look, and in which direction it is trending, can inform decisions being made today to help shape a better society for everybody tomorrow.

trod1234 2y ago

This is just plainly and grossly misinformed. Immigration rates, and their children come no where close to affecting regular educational metrics. The reading comprehension is just that bad, and the people in the know understand why it is that way but bureaucracy props it up while everyone waits for Superman.

crazygringo 2y ago
Something like 14.3% of the current US population is foreign-born, and we can assume that the proportion of school-age children is somewhere around that as well. About half are from Latin America. That's absolutely going to affect regular education metrics. And it's going to affect it increasingly, as the proportion of foreign-born has risen continuously from 4.7% in 1970 to 14.3% today. There's nothing misinformed about any of this. It's quite possible reading is getting worse among native speakers as well. Or not at all. My point is that you can't tell unless you separate out the two populations in the literacy statistics. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findi...