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I'm gonna ask the same thing I asked when some city in Spain did this. What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor

I'm gonna ask the same thing I asked when some city in Spain did this. What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? I'm not sure what a "reasonable" carve out for these people would look like but people aren't idiots and they tend to resent individuals, groups and institutions that make their daily behavior unlawful with the stroke of a pen and the more policy subjects on which you do that the more resentment you build and eventually it starts road blocking other actions. Doing things that way is not what sustainable government looks like. (edit: Disclaimer before anyone jumps down my throat, obviously the political realities of public policy and compliance are different in Japan than in the west.)

amelius 2y ago
Maybe these people can use one of these bags, but inside-out? [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/zultws/in_japanese_hotel_rooms_they_have_plastic_bags_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/zultws/i...
ceejayoz 2y ago
> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? You switch to vaping (public health win!) or you move.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  I agree vaping is a big public health improvement (not that I'm a particular fan of it) over smoking but they banned that too... Nobody is gonna move over smoking. They're just gonna resent you. And that'll hamstring your next public health action or whatever because the political will just won't be there.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    They banned vaping in public streets, not private homes. I can't speak for Japan, but around here most "no smoking" landlords permit vaping.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Vaping in one's apartment isn't banned. Except perhaps if you have a very specific clause in a renting contract, but I don't think anyone would bother going these lengths.
- hiq 2y ago
  > vaping (public health win!) I don't think it's that clear. If smokers simply replaced their smoking with vaping maybe it would be a win, but I've noticed that the behavior when it comes to vaping is wildly different: smokers tend to vape more than they would smoke because of how little friction there is in comparison (you don't even a lighter, you can often stay indoors and it will smell less so others won't complain as much). I even know of someone who vapes while lying in bed, and I can't imagine they would smoke a cigarette there.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    I'm still inclined to see that as a win. Cigarettes have significantly more downsides than just the nicotine.
  - vdjskshi 2y ago
    [dead]
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? They live longer?
lolinder 2y ago
> people aren't idiots and they tend to resent individuals, groups and institutions that make their daily behavior unlawful with the stroke of a pen Yes, but when the people affected become a sufficiently small minority those people have a smaller and smaller impact on local and regional elections. The culture in much of the world has shifted so firmly against smoking that politicians in these places have probably rightly calculated that the irritation from the few holdouts who still feel entitled to smoke in public is massively overpowered by the gratitude they'll get from the people who are tired of dodging tobacco smoke on the streets.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  If public opinion is so against smoking then why not let it fizzle out? Your comment exactly captures what I mean. Every government in the west more or less shared your attitude over the past decade or two and what did it get them? A bunch of populists winning elections because people like you calculated that you could push the envelope on just about ever issue all at once and while you were all probably right individually it turns out that you can't all do that all at once. It's a tragedy of the commons problem of sorts. Instead of treating public policy as a strategic game of "how many frogs can we boil on how many subjects and how quickly can we boil them without losing our heads?" frog boiling was treated as to be something avoided generally maybe such progress regressing things would happen less often. Now, while I understand that Japan is not the west, I'm less than enthused to see them being sloppy like this.
  - 542354234235 2y ago
    Why is a non-smoker’s right not to breath in smoke not included in your calculation? Why is it only the smoker (well the smoker in a very narrow and specific case) that is being “pushed” now and not the non-smokers having been pushed for decades? The closer you live to others, the more your individual actions can and do affect others. The ‘my liberty ends where yours begins' concept. Of course there is no perfect universal right answer to any given line, but there is no obligation to “carve out” anything. I don’t want to be forced to breath in their smoke while I’m in my apartment either, and I don’t have the option to not breath. Letting it "just fizzle out" is failing to protect the rights and freedoms of non-smokers.
anal_reactor 2y ago
> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? I don't know, I don't care. If you belong to lower social class you have less privileges, like smoking. Smoking is a luxury, not a basic necessity.

amelius 2y ago

Maybe these people can use one of these bags, but inside-out? [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/zultws/in_japanese_hotel_rooms_they_have_plastic_bags_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/zultws/i...

ceejayoz 2y ago

> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? You switch to vaping (public health win!) or you move.

potato3732842 2y ago
I agree vaping is a big public health improvement (not that I'm a particular fan of it) over smoking but they banned that too... Nobody is gonna move over smoking. They're just gonna resent you. And that'll hamstring your next public health action or whatever because the political will just won't be there.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  They banned vaping in public streets, not private homes. I can't speak for Japan, but around here most "no smoking" landlords permit vaping.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  Vaping in one's apartment isn't banned. Except perhaps if you have a very specific clause in a renting contract, but I don't think anyone would bother going these lengths.
hiq 2y ago
> vaping (public health win!) I don't think it's that clear. If smokers simply replaced their smoking with vaping maybe it would be a win, but I've noticed that the behavior when it comes to vaping is wildly different: smokers tend to vape more than they would smoke because of how little friction there is in comparison (you don't even a lighter, you can often stay indoors and it will smell less so others won't complain as much). I even know of someone who vapes while lying in bed, and I can't imagine they would smoke a cigarette there.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  I'm still inclined to see that as a win. Cigarettes have significantly more downsides than just the nicotine.
- vdjskshi 2y ago
  [dead]

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago

> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? They live longer?

lolinder 2y ago

> people aren't idiots and they tend to resent individuals, groups and institutions that make their daily behavior unlawful with the stroke of a pen Yes, but when the people affected become a sufficiently small minority those people have a smaller and smaller impact on local and regional elections. The culture in much of the world has shifted so firmly against smoking that politicians in these places have probably rightly calculated that the irritation from the few holdouts who still feel entitled to smoke in public is massively overpowered by the gratitude they'll get from the people who are tired of dodging tobacco smoke on the streets.

potato3732842 2y ago
If public opinion is so against smoking then why not let it fizzle out? Your comment exactly captures what I mean. Every government in the west more or less shared your attitude over the past decade or two and what did it get them? A bunch of populists winning elections because people like you calculated that you could push the envelope on just about ever issue all at once and while you were all probably right individually it turns out that you can't all do that all at once. It's a tragedy of the commons problem of sorts. Instead of treating public policy as a strategic game of "how many frogs can we boil on how many subjects and how quickly can we boil them without losing our heads?" frog boiling was treated as to be something avoided generally maybe such progress regressing things would happen less often. Now, while I understand that Japan is not the west, I'm less than enthused to see them being sloppy like this.
- 542354234235 2y ago
  Why is a non-smoker’s right not to breath in smoke not included in your calculation? Why is it only the smoker (well the smoker in a very narrow and specific case) that is being “pushed” now and not the non-smokers having been pushed for decades? The closer you live to others, the more your individual actions can and do affect others. The ‘my liberty ends where yours begins' concept. Of course there is no perfect universal right answer to any given line, but there is no obligation to “carve out” anything. I don’t want to be forced to breath in their smoke while I’m in my apartment either, and I don’t have the option to not breath. Letting it "just fizzle out" is failing to protect the rights and freedoms of non-smokers.

anal_reactor 2y ago

> What happens to people who live in non smoking apartments and don't have private outdoor space to smoke? I don't know, I don't care. If you belong to lower social class you have less privileges, like smoking. Smoking is a luxury, not a basic necessity.