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Open-R1: an open reproduction of DeepSeek-R1
- freddealmeida 2y agohow is this open vs whatdeepseek did?
- simonw 2y agoFrom that article: > The release of DeepSeek-R1 is an amazing boon for the community, but they didn’t release everything—although the model weights are open, the datasets and code used to train the model are not. > The goal of Open-R1 is to build these last missing pieces so that the whole research and industry community can build similar or better models using these recipes and datasets.
- boznz 2y agoGenuine question, but how do you replicate the effort exactly without $5M in compute? and can you test that the published weights etc are actually those in the model? Am I missing something?
- simonw 2y agoThe $5.5m in compute wasn't for R1, it was for DeepSeek v3. The R1 trick looks like it may be a whole lot cheaper than that. R1 apparently used just 800,000 samples - I don't fully understand the processing needed on top of those samples but I get the impression it's a whole lot less compute than the $5.5m used to train v3.
- choilive 2y agodeepseek claims they are "open source" but they are not. They are open weight. IMO a truly "open" AI model should have 3 components publicly available: the weights, the code, and the dataset. Without all 3 the model is not reproducible. Could make the argument that the code and data are sufficient though.
- brianstrimp 2y agoOnly meaningful if code+data deterministically reproduce the weights. At that point, the weights are just the cached output. Which has value since it's costly to produce from code+data.
- frabcus 2y agoI don't think it needs to be deterministic - and if it isn't, having the data and code becomes even more important! Compilers generally aren't deterministic (see the reproduceable build movement), yet we still use their output binaries.
- brianstrimp 2y ago[dead]
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThe only one I’ve see people talk about that shares all the components is OLMo (https://allenai.org/blog/olmo2 https://allenai.org/blog/olmo2)
- reedciccio 2y agoThere are more, like the work by Eleuther AI and LLM360.
- mirsadm 2y agoNo one will release the dataset because we all know it is gathered through dodgy means.
- notyourwork 2y agoAnd likely massaged by the CCP.
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- cadamsdotcom 2y agoExciting to see this being reproduced, loving the hyper-fast movement in open source! This is exactly why it is not “US vs China”, the battle is between heavily-capitalized Silicon Valley companies versus open source. Every believer in this tech owes DeepSeek some gratitude, but even they stand on shoulders of giants in the form of everyone else who pushed the frontier forward and chose to publish, rather than exploit, what they learned.
- brianstrimp 2y ago[dead]
- raxxor 2y agoOh yes, I am firmly on Team China here because US companies got too greedy. Meta is an exception here though and they also propelled AI development massively. DeepSeek is awesome. Any AI task yet implemented in our business can be run from my local PC with just the smaller models. And my PC is fairly crappy to begin with. OpenAI looks quite silly with their "we have to close everything".
- manmal 2y agoCan you elaborate which models you are using? I‘m running an R1 distilled Qwen coder with 32B Q4, and while it’s giving useful answers, it‘s quite slow on my M1 Max. Slow enough that I keep reaching for cloud models.
- raxxor 2y agoNot on my machine currently, I use the 14b Q4 model I think, which delivers very good answers. I run a 4060 with 16gb memory and performance is quite good. I used the largest model that was recommended with this amount of VRAM, I think it was the 14b one. I do have some applications that process images, text and pdf files and I use smaller models for extracting embeddings. I think my system wouldn't be able to handle it with decent speed otherwise. I do run LLM on a M1 16gb macbook air and performance is surprisingly good. Not for image synthesis though and a PC with a dedicated GPU is still significantly faster with LLM responses as well. Haven't tried to run deepseek on the macbook yet.
- drakenot 2y agoWhat are some other domains outside of Math and Coding that would be suitable for RL with automated verification?
- nine_k 2y agoJurisprudence, I hope! A huge heap of detailed cases, formal codes, decisions made and explained in detail, commented, overturned, etc. Especially civil cases. Also, probably, medicine, especially diagnostic. Large amounts of well-documented cases, a fair amount of repeatability, apparently non-random mechanisms behind, so statistical models should actually detect useful correlations. Can use more formalized tokens from lab tests, etc.
- jampekka 2y agoA friend of mine just defended his law PhD and in the introductory lectio said that (even) current LLMs would likely give better verdicts than human judges. Law isn't really a cognitively such demanding task as walking a dog or waiting tables.
- numba888 2y ago> current LLMs would likely give better verdicts He probably meant _brainwashed_ LLMs. They can consistently produce desired results if you wash them the right way. It's more about personal opinion than computation. Actually it would be fun to manipulate verdicts with prompt injections ;)
- jampekka 2y agoJudges are very much "brainwashed" too, and by design. The judges should apply the law, and the same case should ideally lead to the same verdict regardless of the judge. With the caveat that this applies to sane legal systems, and not the ones where "making examples" etc are part of the system.
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- ipnon 2y agoIs this what the Web was like in the beginning? Something exciting and fascinating every week?
- hhh 2y agothe timescales were larger
- qwertox 2y agoMuch larger. Static HTML <--> AJAX <--> WebSocket, for example weren't it decades in between?
- othello 2y agoJust a decade and a half as it turns out! (though things definitely felt dizzyingly fast back then - think Google was launched just 5 years after HTML) - HTML first released in 1993 - AJAX in 1999 - Websocket first proposed in 2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebSocket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebSocket
- robin_reala 2y agoActiveX XMLHTTP might have been released in 99, but it didn’t see any sort of real wider usage until 2004, 2005. I’d suggest its usage was really kickstarted when jQuery 1.0 launched in 2006 and standardised the interface to a simple API.
- bananaflag 2y agoGmail was the first time I saw a website which could refresh the information without refreshing the page. I was a teen back then but I realized it was something momentous.
- vinni2 2y agoWhere is the evaluation numbers? without it you can’t call it reproduction.
- nejsjsjsbsb 2y agoIt is an announcement. A kick-starter if you like.
- LZ_Khan 2y agoNote: This is not an actual model but rather an announcement of an effort to reproduce the R1 model.
- bottled_poe 2y agoIt will be very interesting to see if they can reproduce a similar model on the shoestring budget claimed by Deepseek.
- anshumankmr 2y agobut deepseek hasn't claimed the figure touted by everyone for this particular R1 model, cause that 5.6mn was apparently for Deepseek's coder model
- boroboro4 2y ago5.6mn figure is for base Deepseek V3 model. Both instruction and reasoning tuning of it has neglectable cost in comparison with it.
- vinni2 2y agoExactly the title is misleading
- fblp 2y agoGiven DeepSeek's open philosophy I wonder what their response is to simply being asked for access to the code and data that this project intends to recreate?
- weatherlite 2y agowouldn't hold my breath ...
- thih9 2y agoWhile I'm also interested in this, I guess there is value in independent replication as well. Assuming this is doable - and I wouldn't know. Does anyone know how difficult it is to perform this kind of reproduction? E.g. how much time would it take (weeks? years?) and how likely it is to succeed?
- papichulo2023 2y agoNo company ever will disclose data due it would open endless liability.
- jackjeff 2y agoThat’s a good point. Wouldn’t OpenR1 suffer from the same problem? Or does being open somehow shield them from legal repercussions?
- michaelt 2y agoSome people believe they can dodge copyright issues so long as they have enough indirection in their training pipeline. You take a terabyte of pirated college physics textbooks and train a model that can pose and answer physics 101 problems. Then a separate, "independent" team uses that model to generate a terabyte of new, synthetic physics 101 problems and solutions, and releases this dataset as "public domain". Then a third "independent" team uses that synthetic dataset to train a model. The theory is this forms a sort of legal sieve. Pass the knowledge through a grid with a million fact-sized holes and with enough shaking, the knowledge falls through but the copyright doesn't.
- amelius 2y agoAre there any other groups trying this?
- fl4tul4 2y agoIs OpenAI open as of yesterday?
- sunshine-o 2y agoNow that things are really getting wild in the LLM space and people are just running anything that come it seems I did a quick search on the thead model of hosting you own LLM. I didn't find much, starting with llama.ccp which is just reminding you to sandbox and isolate everything if running untrusted models. I feel we are back in the Windows 95 / early Internet era when people would just run anything without caring about security.
- pitched 2y agoYou’ll want to use something trusted like Ollama to run the model. The model itself is just data though, like a video file. That doesn’t mean it can’t be crafted to use a bug in Ollama to launch an exploit but it’s a lot safer than you make it sound.
- mewpmewp2 2y agoIf used as an agent, given access to execute code, search web, use other form of tools, it could do potentially much more. And most productive usecases require access to such tools. If you want to automate things and get most of the modeel, you will have to give it ability to use tools. E.g. it could have been trained to launch a delayed attack if context indicates it has access to execute code and given certain conditions, e.g. date, or other type of codeword that is input to it. So if a malicious actor gets to a certain stage with an LLM where they are confident it will be able to reliably run this attack, all they have to do is open source it, wait for enough adoption and then use some of those methods to launch such attack. No one would be able to identify it since the weights are unreadable, but really somewhere in the weights this attack is just hiding and waiting to happen given correct pathway triggered.
- pitched 2y agoA delayed attack is a bit of a stretch because that’s a stateful thing but a reminder of the Ken Thompson hack does feel very relevant.
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- vinni2 2y agoI wonder how long it takes to reproduce it and would having access to latest GPUs speed it up?
- zoobab 2y agoFor "open source", we will wait that Debian ships them to have the guarantee it's actually "open" and with "sources". Right now it's a mystery how they produce their binaries.
- anthk 2y agoMore like Trisquel, Hyperbola or GUIX.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nutanc 2y agoHow can we help. Can crowd sourcing help? Is there any list of tasks that we want a crowd to do? The reason I am asking is because we have done a couple of crowdsourcing efforts and collected story data in Telugu(Chandamama Kathalu) and ASR speech data using college going students. Since we have access to the students, we can mobilize them and get this going. We will also be doing an internship program for 100,000 students in Telangana as part of Viswam[1] in April. Can include some work as part of this effort. [1] https://viswam.ai/ https://viswam.ai/
- Keyframe 2y agoIs there a BOINC or similar effort to crowdsource training? I imagine it'd take quite long, but that's one way forward to have AI@Home.
- nutanc 2y agoWe are attempting something with PETALS. But this question was more from a data collection perspective. We can really add value there.
- hammock 2y agoWe don’t need your help anymore. We don’t need anyone’s help. We have Deepseek now to do it. God save us all
- htrp 2y agoThe hf team tweeted they'd be doing this over the weekend. I guess now it's an official project with headcount
- breadwinner 2y agoFrom the article: they didn’t release everything—although the model weights are open, the datasets and code used to train the model are not. Is that true about Meta Llama as well? Specifically, the code used to train the model is not open? (I know no one releases datasets). If so the label "open source" is inappropriate. "Open weights" would be more appropriate.
- DeflectedFlux 2y agoAbout the training data, cant the datasets from the Tulu3 Model by the Allen Institute be used? They claim that they have used a fully open source training dataset.
- alchemist1e9 2y agoMy gut says a lot of attention needs to be given to building a community that focuses on open and reliable access to clean training data. If a collective/coop of individuals and organizations with storage and network capacity could collaborate with each other to archive and index deduplicated training data that would be huge. Perhaps this is already happening. I was looking at Red Pajama last year as an example. Someone like myself could arrange to host 200+TB on high speed storage with a 10G public IP for example, then we get a bunch of us together and hopefully access to training datasets would be decentralized and uncensored in an idea setup. Is all that in progress and I just need to learn how to join? Is Red Pajama something to look at again? Is there someone tracking datasets in detail like HuggingFace has all the models? I know a lot of datasets are on it also, but there is massive duplication.
- DeflectedFlux 2y agoThats an awesome idea, didnt know Red Pajama yet.
- alchemist1e9 2y agoIt might need to involve some torrent or anonymity platforms to avoid problems like Books3 had when the use and availability of the data is restricted by some jurisdictions. It also needs to incorporate some deduplication approach as I notice the same data is often repackaged with variations in format or specification.
- Babawomba 2y agosuper cool to see an open initiative like this—love the idea of replicating DeepSeek-R1 in a transparent way. I do like the idea of making these reasoning techniques accessible to everyone. If they really manage to replicate the results of DeepSeek-R1, especially on a smaller budget, that’s a huge win for open-source AI. I’m all for projects that push innovation and share the process with others, even if it’s messy. But yeah—lots of hurdles. They might hit a wall because they don’t have DeepSeek’s original datasets.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- readthenotes1 2y agoStopped reading when it said DeepSeek brokevtge stock market