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Sweden Seizes Ship Suspected of Baltic Sea 'Sabotage'
- matthewfelgate 2y agoWhen is the West going to start standing up to Russia on these cable sabotages?
- vkou 2y agoI think undersea infrastructure has been a bit of a free-for-all since Sep 26th, 2022.
- willvarfar 2y agoWhilst the blowing up of the nordstream pipelines was a very well known example, there were prior damage by ships to undersea infrastructure. For example, on Jan 7th 2022 the undersea cable between Spitsbergen and Norway was severed. https://www.twz.com/43828/undersea-cable-connecting-norway-with-arctic-satellite-station-has-been-mysteriously-severed https://www.twz.com/43828/undersea-cable-connecting-norway-w... Turns out a Russian trawler had gone back and forth over the cable until it broke. This was covered in a nordic languages documentary called skuggkriget ('shadow wars') https://www.svtplay.se/uppdrag-granskning-skuggkriget https://www.svtplay.se/uppdrag-granskning-skuggkriget Of course history of this goes all the way back to the very first thing the British did in WW1 was to cut the telegraph cables between Europe and America https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42367551 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42367551
- The_Colonel 2y agoAnd all land is free-to-take since Feb 24th, 2022. Ultimately, international law has to be enforced by someone. Russia broke it many times before NS2 blew up, it's not like they were holding up before.
- pydry 2y agoI find it weird how some people think that the country who illegally invaded Iraq on a whim enabled a genocide in Gaza could possibly be trusted to enforce international law on any other matter. There was a period when a law based international order theoretically could have been implemented by the US but since 1991 it's always just followed the principle of "fuck you my guns are bigger than yours" with some bullshit legalistic pretext.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou don't need to be a just actor to enforce international law if you're strong enough to pull it off and it aligns with your interests.
- vkou 2y agoIf you think taking some Russian land in recompense is a good idea, go ahead, nobody is stopping you, there is no world police. Just let me know in advance, so that I can be on a one-way flight to Argentina, or some other southern nation.
- The_Colonel 2y agoYou didn't understand my comment. My point is that the calculus for Russia isn't "is there a precedent for breaking this type of international law?", it's rather "can we get away with it?". NS2 didn't figure in the Russia's calculus when planning the undersea cable interruption.
- guappa 2y ago> Ultimately, international law has to be enforced by someone And who has more moral right to do that than the superpower that supports a genocide, invaded iraq for no actual reason (and the whistleblower who called it "suicided")? USA doesn't enforce "law", they enforce oppression and the interests of a few rich guys.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
- guappa 2y ago[flagged]
- impossiblefork 2y ago[flagged]
- suraci 2y agoThank you, Ukraine
- throwaway123199 2y ago[flagged]
- impossiblefork 2y agoOnce Azerbaijan starts up their wars again though, all the pipelines are presumably going away, so even though the Ukrainians have obviously screwed you, it's far from certain they'll really gain that much.
- EB-Barrington 2y ago[dead]
- lupusreal 2y agoGermany really should have anticipated this sort of thing happening sooner or later, but German politicians chose instead to bury their heads in the sand by buying into the whole "end of history" narrative. Making their economy so dependent on buying energy from Russia is only one manifestation of this. Another has been allowing their military to atrophy, to the point where they can no longer pull their own weight in NATO to present a credible deterrence to Russian aggression. Germany is lucky to be friendly with so many other nations that aren't run by such foolish people; Poland, Sweden, etc. At the same time, Germany is now in an uncomfortable position with America because of Germany's own poor planning.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y agoThe article shows Sweden doing exactly that, following Finland doing same in December. So The Russia-adjacent Baltic states got the message late last year.
- jononor 2y agoArguably this is exactly an example of that? There is also a sanctioning scheme on oil and various other goods. Not saying these are perfect, or even sufficient. But which measures do you have in mind?
- throwaway123199 2y ago[flagged]
- ddtaylor 2y agoAre these sabotages considered an offense worth of NATO response? If not, what is the standard there or has it not been tested with this because it's just an "Internet cable"?
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoI'm not an expert but I don't think it is, because they took place in international waters and unless there's proof to the contrary, they're done by civilian vessels. And it being done by dragging anchors makes it plausible deniability of being accidents. It's really annoying to be honest. Makes me wish for stricter laws for international waters when it comes to undersea infrastructure.
- mstade 2y agoOne of the Swedish politicians seem to think so: https://swedenherald.com/article/hultqvist-on-the-baltic-sea-activate-natos-article-4 https://swedenherald.com/article/hultqvist-on-the-baltic-sea...
- The_Colonel 2y agoNo, I don't think so. Or rather, what kind of response? Invoking Article 5 and then what? It seems like just another chapter in the hybrid warfare. NATO countries can respond in other ways, more sanctions, more military support for Ukraine, undercover actions, restricting Russian vessel movement in the Baltic Sea etc.
- lovegrenoble 2y agoWhen is the Russia going to start standing up to West on the North Stream sabotages?
- The_Colonel 2y agoIt was most likely Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine are at war.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoDidn't they already by forcing people to pay in rubles? Anyway it's not like Russia has any negotiating powers with the rest of europe at the moment, we're not buying their gas until they withdraw and repatriate.
- lovegrenoble 2y agorip germany
- drawkward 2y agoNot at least for another 4 years.
- ramchip 2y agoI highly recommend this video "A new stage of Russian hybrid warfare" from military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yabwyb14-BQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yabwyb14-BQ Basically, Russia's goal is not so much to cut some cables but rather to create fear in order to reduce support for Ukraine. A loud public response is not necessarily in our interest because it makes their attacks more effective.
- The_Colonel 2y agoIntimidation has been their modus operandi for a while. Assassinations which they only half-heartedly deny is another example of that. But it feels like this has become the new normal and isn't particularly effective anymore.
- tim333 2y agoYou've got to wonder if it'll work out well for them. They basically want to take control of Ukraine and this sort of stuff is just going to have Europe saying sod that.
- biofox 2y agoThere have been several incidents of underwater sabotage in recent years, and I can't recall any previous action being taken, so this is a welcome change.
- the_duke 2y agoIn the most recent incident the ship was also detained, forgot which country it was.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y agoFinland, in December > Russia-linked dark fleet tanker Eagle S, seized by Finland on December 25 2024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42516864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42516864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42520563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42520563
- piva00 2y agoFinland seized the Eagle S in late December.
- ddtaylor 2y agoIs this just a case where they can string along and claim lack of proof or do they claim it was just an accident etc? Which government is failing to uphold their property rights basically?
- lupusreal 2y agoThe ships owner / crew will of course claim it was an accident, but Sweden is investigating it as a crime. That investigation hasn't run its course yet.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y agoIt could be both? If I am driving my car, and I hit a person due to not paying attention, isn't that both an accident and a crime. I am not saying that it is an accident; personally I very much doubt it. But they're not exclusive. You don't have to rule out "accident" before you investigate "crime".
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- willvarfar 2y agoLast week The Washington Post cited anonymous US intelligence officials as saying these anchor drags are probably accidents. Its byline paints it as a growing opinion in European intelligence circles too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/01/19/russia-baltic-undersea-cables-accidents-sabotage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/01/19/russia-balti... This is very much at odds with the government stances in the Baltic. So what is the political messaging happening in the US and why?
- lawn 2y agoWashington Post is simply eating up Russian propaganda. Don't be so gullible.
- wasmitnetzen 2y agoMy personal theory is that the cable owners don't want this to be an "act of war" because then their insurance doesn't pay.
- tomalaci 2y agoAs if. The ship Finland seized some time ago was loaded with spy equipment [0]. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it is a Russian spy. [0] https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151955/Russia-linked-cable-cutting-tanker-seized-by-Finland-was-loaded-with-spying-equipment https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151955/Russia-linked-cable-cut...
- jakewins 2y agoFinnish authorities denied those reports in Lloyds List FWIW: https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/3fa30bba-6925-49ac-8c49-ce191ce0ab00 https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/3fa30bba-6925-49ac-8c49-c... But also yeah, the opinion of authorities I see quoted in Swedish and Finnish press has been very clear they don’t think this is accidental. I’ve lived by the Baltic for much of my life, had many many years of nothing like this, then suddenly every week Russian ships “accidentally” cuts critical cables. No reason to spread rumours, that’s how seeds of doubt are sown; the evidence is plain as day without manufactured stories
- cm2187 2y agoI think people will need to rethinking having their electricity grid relying on undersea cables. Like there are projects to make the UK dependent on solar energy from Morocco, and northern europe on Scandinavian dams.
- TrackerFF 2y agoAt least in Norway, the underwater electricity cables are extremely controversial - to the point that the sitting gov. might lose the upcoming election partly due to how they’ve handled it the past years. Skyrocketing electricity bills is something ordinary people feel.
- pjc50 2y agoReally? It's an export industry for Norway, selling electricity to other countries.
- magicalhippo 2y agoOne paid for by the inhabitants through higher electricity prices, so not exactly like other goods.
- BrandoElFollito 2y agoI think Sweden had the intent, a few years back, to get to free electricity and export it. I did not know Norway was looking at exporting it too
- pjc50 2y agohttps://www.iea.org/countries/norway/electricity https://www.iea.org/countries/norway/electricity : 11% exported.
- belorn 2y agoYou can be an exporter of energy and at the same time be dependent on energy imports. Trade union deals can also dictate that rather than saving up and keeping capacity in hydroelectric dams, they must export energy, which then later create a shortage.
- CrzyLngPwd 2y agoOver the last 20 years, 100-200 such cables globally have been damaged annually. This is only news now because Russia is the current bogeyman, and the claims of Russia doing it fit the propaganda. If I were Ukraine, I'd cut such cables to encourage my Western sponsors into more action, but that narrative is a bitter pill to swallow for the Western taxpayer's funding conflict. Still, in 50 years, we may well be reading about exactly that.
- KingOfCoders 2y ago"Over the last 20 years, 100-200 such cables globally have been damaged annually." I read this also all the time, what I don't hear: How do they break? At high sea? By anchors? In a port? By nature? We don't know? I'm open to the argument, but then someone would need to show some numbers, some trends, reasons and that the current cable breaking is just the same as in the last 20 years.
- CrzyLngPwd 2y agohttps://www2.telegeography.com/submarine-cable-faqs-frequently-asked-questions https://www2.telegeography.com/submarine-cable-faqs-frequent... https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/nv/insights/itu-launches-international-advisory-body-for-submarine-cable-resilience https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/nv/insights/itu-launche...
- drawkward 2y agoThis does not show evidence to refute the claim.
- KingOfCoders 2y agoI can't find anything of what I mentioned in those links. Just the same numbers "with an average of 150 to 200 faults occurring globally each year" thrown around again - again with no source. I would wish for Year Number Fishing Anchor Earthquake ... 2022 128 15 2 5 2021 133 22 8 2 (best grouped by region, Baltic Sea, North Atlanic, South Atlantic, Black Sea, ...) etc.
- pineaux 2y agoSo much S's a nice tongue twister Seeing Sweden seize suspected sea sabotage ships.
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- rags2riches 2y agoPrompted by this incident, here's a description of how to drop an anchor on a ship like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrT1Pl3pR6Y&t=268s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrT1Pl3pR6Y&t=268s Earlier in the video is a quote from Finnish authorities calling the reports of these incidents being accidental BS. Later is a walkthrough of the telling variations in speed of the ship after leaving port in Russia.
- hsuduebc2 2y agoI don't understand the point of doing this. The cable just gets fixed and before thet the internet goes the other way for a while. They're just gonna piss everybody off. Can you think of any logical reason, or is it just Russia's indomitable desire to do harm?
- sebazzz 2y agoJust feeling how far they can go. No-one wants to sound the war or article 5 horn. Also, seeing if the White House has any opinion on the matter - now there is a new person in charge that Russia really desired to have there.
- mantas 2y agoAt least for power cables, the point is Lithuanian/Latvian/Estonian grids. Currently they're still connected to Russian grids and frequency is controlled by Russians. But this is about to end on February 8th. On this day Lithuanian/Latvian/Estonian grids should completely disconnect from the soviet-era grids network and start keeping frequency on their own synchronised with central european grids.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoEarlier: Another undersea cable damaged in Baltic Sea https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42833491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42833491
- d0nt_like_putin 2y agoAll this is Russian hybrid-warfare.[1] The previous cable-cutting ship that was seized by Finland had so much radio equipment that it generators couldn't keep up. "RUSSIA-LINKED dark fleet tanker Eagle S (IMO: 9329760), seized by Finland on December 25 for damaging an undersea cable, had transmitting and receiving devices installed that effectively allowed it to become a “spy ship” for Russia, Lloyd’s List has learnt. The hi-tech equipment on board was abnormal for a merchant ship and consumed more power from the ship’s generator, leading to repeated blackouts, a source familiar with the vessel who provided commercial maritime services to it as recently as seven months ago."[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_warfare [2] https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151955/Russia-linked-cable-cutting-tanker-seized-by-Finland-was-loaded-with-spying-equipment https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151955/Russia-linked-cable-cut...
- romperstomper 2y agoTotally agree. No incidents before the war (or at least not so many). Half a dozen incidents during last 2-3 years. Just after the sanctions were placed by the EU, the US etc. I'm really doubt these are the accidents.
- Ruckerpatsy57 2y ago[dead]