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Another undersea cable damaged in Baltic Sea
- thwr01238 2y ago[flagged]
- echoangle 2y ago> Nordstream of course is no issue and does not need to be investigated. Did anyone ever say this?
- wtrnab 2y ago[flagged]
- echoangle 2y ago> Moreover, Nordstream has never been called "hybrid warfare". https://theconversation.com/hybrid-warfare-nord-stream-attacks-show-how-war-is-evolving-191764 https://theconversation.com/hybrid-warfare-nord-stream-attac... https://www.offshore-energy.biz/hybrid-warfare-paints-gray-zone-targets-on-shipping-and-offshore-energy-infrastructure/ https://www.offshore-energy.biz/hybrid-warfare-paints-gray-z... https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/28/nord-stream-blasts-hybrid-war-eu-russia-sabotage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/28/nord-stream-bl... https://energynews.pro/en/sabotage-of-the-nord-stream-gas-pipelines-an-act-of-hybrid-war/ https://energynews.pro/en/sabotage-of-the-nord-stream-gas-pi... are we just making stuff up now?
- throw_pm23 2y agoI think you are strengthening the point of the parent poster. It was called hybrid walfare as long as someone else was suspected and was no longer called that after it became known who did it.
- echoangle 2y agoYeah, because the west isn’t at war with Ukraine, so it can’t be a hybrid war. If there’s an explosion in a Mall and I say „it could have been terrorism“ and it turns out to be a gas leak, is it wrong if I don’t call it terrorism anymore? It’s not hybrid warfare if it’s done by Ukraine, more like regular sabotage.
- throw_pm23 2y agoIndeed, you are right, but the analogy is not perfect. More like you first say it could have been terrorism and it turns out that it was one of the shopkeepers who did it and then it is not clear what to call it.
- wtrnab 2y ago[flagged]
- safgasCVS 2y ago[flagged]
- pjc50 2y agoThat might be what's put in the papers, but it's a strain on credulity.
- lysace 2y agoFrom the Swedish Public Prosecutor's Office: https://www.aklagare.se/nyheter-press/pressmeddelanden/2025/januari/forundersokning-inledd-efter-kabelbrott-i-ostersjon/ https://www.aklagare.se/nyheter-press/pressmeddelanden/2025/... > A vessel suspected of carrying out the [suspected] sabotage has been seized following a decision by prosecutors.
- mongol 2y agoFurthermore, police, coast guard and defense is involved in the case.
- spiderfarmer 2y ago50 meters is way to deep for it to be any kind of accident.
- agilob 2y agoThats quite deep for the region. TIL Baltic Sea is 55m deep on average, but 80m deep in the region where cable was cut. That also means that 2nd easiest to acquire PADI qualification is enough to dive there by yourself.
- echoangle 2y ago> That also means that 2nd easiest to acquire PADI qualification is enough to dive there by yourself. How? Open water diver is 18m, advanced Open water diver is 30m. With „deep diver“ specialty, you’re at 40m. I think you need to become an instructor to go deeper, that’s not the 2nd easiest qualification at all.
- rich_sasha 2y agoI think PADI doesn't even go that far, it is predominantly a leisure diving organization. Their technical diving courses seem to end at 50m. Not really related to instructor courses either, a regular instructor typically has no need to go beyond 30m. Diving to 80m is a serious endeavor on this scale.
- weebull 2y ago80m is moderately serious. I've personally done 75m in the Atlantic and I wouldn't say I'm superhuman or anything (or military). It requires helium mixes and personally I'd only want to do it with a rebreather, not normal "blowing-bubbles" type SCUBA gear (too wasteful on the breathing gas). 20-30 minutes at the bottom will mean around 90-120 minutes decompressing. You don't want to be doing anything taking too long, or being too laborious. Could be done from a fishing boat without any problem.
- 2y ago
- soared 2y agoWeird to not mention the country of the ship, since that seems relevant in a war scenario. Malta - https://maritimeoptima.com/public/vessels/pages/imo:9648879/mmsi:249184000/MICHALIS_SAN.html https://maritimeoptima.com/public/vessels/pages/imo:9648879/...
- Luc 2y agoFlag of convenience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
- pjc50 2y agoThe registration is irrelevant; the actual owner and operator only matter. The ship has as much to with Malta as .io domains with British Indian Overseas Territory.
- soared 2y agoAh well, should’ve mentioned the owner and operator then to avoid laymen like me doing half baked googling!
- ethbr1 2y agoUnfortunately and by industry standard, a ship's owner and operator are often obsfuscated under multiple layers. It's about as easy to figure out who actually owns and is operating a ship as tracing an international bank account ~1980. It'll be curious if one outcome of the Russian shadow fleets is a stronger worldwide push for verifiable true commercial maritime registration. Essentially: mandating transparency in shells and KYC reporting, in the same way post-9/11 financial reporting was implemented.
- tialaramex 2y agoImproved transparency is already the direction of travel, but pushing back on that is part of "Project 2025" and Trump has signalled that's an important objective.
- ajuc 2y agoRequire ships entering Baltic to be insured for damage to underwater infrastructure. Blockade all the other ships. Insurers will figure out who is trustworthy enough.
- echoangle 2y agoIs that something a country is actually allowed to do? Isn’t that international water?
- armcat 2y agoLot of shipping lanes in the baltic are international waters, but to get into baltic, you have to pass through Danish waters.
- echoangle 2y agoLooks like they signed the right to inspect ships passing the straight away though, if I’m understanding this correctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Convention_of_1857 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Convention_of_1857
- armcat 2y agoMaritime law is definitely not my forte, but I think the convention was related to the tolls imposed to pass through these waters (Sweden's Gota Kanal was built to bypass this). It's also related to "innocent passage", which may not be so innocent in this case. Either way, there are probably provisions here for Denmark to close this off, as ultimately they are Danish waters.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoNow make inspection queue 3 years long.
- belorn 2y agoThere are some wriggle room here. The rights provided by the UN do have conditions, like protection of undersea cables. If a country do not enforce such protection, they could in theory loose the right associated with international waters. Insurance requirements could in this theory be used to codify compliance with the requirements of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
- bozhark 2y agoFYI they don’t want the hardlines to be able to repeat information when the satellites go down
- nradov 2y agoRussia's ASAT capabilities are still very limited. They can do localized jamming from ground stations but haven't developed kinetic weapons anywhere close to China's.
- N19PEDL2 2y agoThey could be preparing something different than kinetic weapons: https://breakingdefense.com/2024/05/is-russias-cosmos-2553-satellite-a-test-for-a-future-orbital-nuclear-weapon/ https://breakingdefense.com/2024/05/is-russias-cosmos-2553-s...
- ww520 2y agoLooks like they need to have redundant backup networks. Starlinks?
- Novosell 2y agoRelying on satellite tech belonging to Elon Musk who is now in bed with Trump who wants to annex Greenland? Doesn't seem like a good idea.
- worldsayshi 2y agoMy guess on why they do this: It's a cheap way to distract us from focusing our investments into Ukraine. If we think they they could strike anywhere we're less likely to focus our efforts. It probably has the long term cost of making us more willing to invest in defence though.
- weebull 2y agoIt's electronic signals warfare. Depriving your opposition of power or communications destabilises command structures. Now you might say "...but these cables are so low value", but these are easy targets that reduce the resilience of the Baltic states. Any more conventional attack would now be more effective because they've taken the backups out first.
- Hamuko 2y agoThere's only about two weeks before it's up again though.
- WillyWonkaJr 2y agoUndersea cables carry trillions of dollars in transactions daily. Their value cannot be overstated.
- jagrsw 2y agoThe ones under the Baltic (with the exception of some islands) are not 'critical', as in they're used for reasons (cost, latency, directness), but those reasons are not b/c there's no other way to connect to the Internet. So, annoyance at most.
- ajross 2y agoUh... not between Sweden and Latvia they don't. That's like saying "Mosquito's kill millions from Malaria!" while you run around trying to swat one. Sure, in aggregate lots of technologies are critically important to modern society. But you don't cry when a single rail car gets damaged.
- 2y ago
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- Animats 2y agoWe're headed into a bigger war.
- lifestyleguru 2y agoNot a single deescalating signal in sight. Power dynamics has evolved a lot in recent two years with many aggressors. America turned into dynastic oligarchy like Russia 20 years ago, Russia turned into Mongol Empire. Yup.
- 127 2y agoPutin threw the dice a bit too many times, got too brazen, and is now locked in a situation he can't get out of. End the war, and Russia will collapse as there's no war to employ people, or give everyone a foreign bogeyman. Don't end the war, the economy might still collapse but at least it will take longer and you might not live long enough to see it.
- hkpack 2y agoThe war is going their way and they don’t want to stop it, they are winning. Economy will not collapse while China (and other “neutral” countries) supports it.
- jiggawatts 2y agoIt’ll be a pyrrhic victory at best. They’ll take control of a devastated area of a poor country that was worse off than them in every economically relevant sense before the war. Any oil or gas they might get control of, Europe will be less interested in buying. Their military will be so degraded that they might face a series of rebellions in their border regions in the next decade — and will be unable to stop. Their loss of male manpower especially is a slow but sure death-blow to their economy over the next couple of decades. Even if they rolled through Kiev with tanks tomorrow, the future for the typical Russian looks bleak. (My prediction is that just like other countries with bad demographics, Russia will require mass-immigration in the near future to avoid collapse. This will dilute their national identity, weaken central control, cause internal strife, etc… Also, if you’re a poor Asian worker looking for a country to move to, would you rather choose South Korea or rural Russia?)
- Oarch 2y agoFor the sake of balance: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/01/19/russia-baltic-undersea-cables-accidents-sabotage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/01/19/russia-balti...
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoThis article is complete nonsense. It claims unnamed people involved in the investigation think it's accidents, yet many people involved in the investigation and willing to be named claim it was definitely intentional.
- kergonath 2y agoYou’d need to provide more information regarding why you think balance is needed, and why you think an oligarch’s mouthpiece is more balanced than a public service.
- twHasg 2y ago[dead]
- vollbrecht 2y agoHow much value is a vessel itself + the cargo its carrying overall? And how much is that relative to the the cost of repairing all the physical damage alone(Not including other damage). Would it be useful measure to seizure the vessel and use its value to compensate for its damage done, making it a deterrence?
- baybal2 2y ago[dead]
- dist-epoch 2y agoA better deterrence would be Russia's cables being cut too.
- alkonaut 2y agoI don’t think we’ll want to be in a war of escalating service-denial with a country full of people used to not having indoor plumbing. Seems like we’d suffer more.
- nradov 2y agoA better deterrence would be for Europe to actually stop buying fossil fuel from Russia (including indirectly via neutral countries) instead of goofing around with price caps or other marginally effective sanctions.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pjc50 2y agoThey're cutting their own cables. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-tested-cutting-off-internet-access-report-kremlin-runet-2024-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-tested-cutting-off-in... As nvradov says, the sanctions need to get a lot harder, especially on German machine tools.
- alkonaut 2y ago
- reboot81 2y agoIt’s just a Special Connectivity Operation.
- dist-epoch 2y agoAfter all the news on how NATO is deploying military ships to guard the cables Russia proves that it was all words.
- rich_sasha 2y agoI doubt you can prevent it with warships. But perhaps you can deter it by making the cost greater than the benefit. What else are you going to do? Stop each and every commercial ship going over any bit of cable? It's not practical.
- dist-epoch 2y agoOne cable cut, one russian ship sunked.
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoIt seems like it's now one cable cut, one russian ship seized. I prefer this, not only is it better for environmental reasons, you can also sell the seized ship and cargo to help cover repair costs.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoLove the direct translation from Russian…
- dralley 2y agoIt's not all words, they seized the ship and are taking it back to a Swedish port. I'm not sure how you stop this from happening besides build a record of handling these incidents with firmness, as opposed to acting like a wet noodle, as they did the first couple of times it happened.
- shmerl 2y agoLooks like they arrested the pirate ship already.
- sbuttgereit 2y agoAnother useful analysis of this: "MV Vezhen Siezed by Swedish Coast Guard For Suspected Cable Break in the Baltic Sea" Sal Mercogliano / What's Going on With Shipping? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrT1Pl3pR6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrT1Pl3pR6Y
- energy123 2y agoHow much does it cost to repair these?
- hnarn 2y ago"The cost of repairing a submarine cable averages between $1 million to $3 million." (ICPC) This obviously doesn't include the "cost" (losses) of the cable not being operational.
- dh2022 2y agoHopefully Europe got the message and will start arresting and prosecuting the sailors who damage these cables. Europe should impound the vessels as well. Before soon Russia and China will run out sailors and vessels. This is the second such incident in a row that we know where the sailors and the vessels have been seized. Hope Europe will keep doing the same for future sabotages.
- nradov 2y agoBy all means seize the vessels. But most of the sailors on the Russian shadow merchant fleet are actually citizens of neutral countries. Russia might have paid off the master or something but prosecuting random seamen who were following legal orders to drop an anchor or whatever would be cruel and ineffective. Give them a hot meal and deport them.
- dh2022 2y agoI think if the sailors are not arrested then other sailors will be enticed by higher than average wages to join these vessels. I feel like the sailors knew what they signed up for. At the very least arrest the captain and onboard officers. PS. This situation reminds me of a presentation at my former company by some lawyers who sued US Government on behalf of some Gitmo inmates. The inmates survived an attack by US forces in the middle of Afganistan and then were arrested. The inmates' legal case (as per lawyers) was they did not know what cargo they transported - and yet they were paid 3-4 times the usual amount for transport cargo in combat region almost deserted by civilians. I am not convinced these inmates were 100% innocent....
- throwawayq3423 2y agoSo arrest the one FSB/GRU guy on board. Shouldn't be hard to find them.
- mannerheim 2y agoBack in the day, sailors would be hanged by the neck until dead for acts of piracy like this.
- 2y ago
- melodyogonna 2y agoThese cables are on the sea floor right? I imagine you have to try in other to damage them. At least, damage them as frequently as it's being done recently
- hnarn 2y agoThere is no doubt in my mind that these incidents are done with intent. My understanding is that these ships are essentially dragging their anchor across the seabed in vulnerable areas, causing the cables to snap. If one wanted to play devil's advocate, you could argue that an anchor malfunction could be to blame, but that doesn't explain why the captain didn't then stop the vessel, why they didn't divert to a safe course.
- JohnnyLarue 2y ago"experts and politicians accused Russia of orchestrating a hybrid war against the West" spidermen_pointing.jpg
- euroderf 2y agoWhat's the chance of requiring some sort of status transponders on anchors ? Spend the 50k$ to install one or GTFO of the Baltic. Sell it as a commonsense measure and apply it to traffic to/from Russia too by enforcing it at the Skagerrak.