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If you're attending a large-scale protest, it's likely that the cell-towers (or stingrays) won't be able to handle everyone who is connected anyways, so worth p
by diggan 2y ago
If you're attending a large-scale protest, it's likely that the cell-towers (or stingrays) won't be able to handle everyone who is connected anyways, so worth planning to use apps that can chat over P2P WiFi or Bluetooth together with the rest of your friends. This also allows you to continue using Airplane Mode the entire time, while being able to communicate with people nearby.
Alternatively, investing in walkie-talkies that have encryption can be worth it as well, but unsure how legal they are around the world, think some countries put restrictions on those so you might have to acquire them while vacationing somewhere else.
It's mentioned in the body of the article, but get the feeling most people could miss it: Absolute best idea is to leave your "personal" phone at home! Either get a secondary (burner) phone with nothing useful on it and no real names, or skip out on the phone fully. If you do get a secondary phone, make sure it has a removable battery and keep it out from the phone until you arrive at location and as soon as you move, remove battery again.
- qwerty_clicks 2y agoWhat apps do you recommend with p2p messaging?
- diggan 2y agoLots of groups have used https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ successfully in the past, I've heard. Assumes you're using Android though which if you're using a burner, you most likely are.
- mmooss 2y ago> successfully Successfully in terms of communication or in terms of security? Successful communication is easy if you don't worry about security. Just post it on Instagram. How do you know if your security is successful? How do you know if your messages were intercepted and read, your app was hacked, data was extracted from it, etc.? The attackers (authorities or otherwise) are not going to tell you.
- thwackamole 2y ago> Successful communication is easy if you don't worry about security. Just post it on Instagram. Nope, assume Meta is captured and will suppress such communication. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42777938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42777938 https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g32yxpdz0o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g32yxpdz0o This has been widely replicated on inauguration day before being rolled back. I would assume any social media site whose CEO attended is captured as well.
- TheSpiceIsLife 2y agoI’d go as far as to assume there’s no evading surveillance in a strict sense. If you attend, leave your phone home (atypical usage), go with other people / meet them there / other people you know are there (facial recognition / gait analysis / clothing preference) those are all good data points to predict with high probability where you are and what you’re up to, especially given your typical movements, data usage patterns, purchasing habits, friends / acquaintances / social media interactions are all in at least a few databases. Take the security measures you’re willing to make the tradeoffs for. If history is anything to go by, we’re only ever an election, or other political churn, away from your particular sets of beliefs / identifiers being persecuted, or at least your least favourite political prisoners being released and coming after you. And, as you allude to, relying on the security practices of others has its own problems. Even Perfect Forward Secrecy etc etc provides little help against Rubber Hose Cryptography.
- Muromec 2y ago>If history is anything to go by, we’re only ever an election, or other political churn, away from your particular sets of beliefs / identifiers being persecuted, or at least your least favourite political prisoners being released and coming after you. it goes other way around too - you are only one election cycle away to be pardoned. And if the protest is succrssfull, you dont need a pardon anyway. Source -- been to places, done the things, a special law shields me from the thiengs being brough up by autorities
- 2y ago
- DicIfTEx 2y agoHere's a guide to PET (peer-to-peer, encrypted, through Tor) apps, focussing on Briar and Cwtch: https://itsgoingdown.org/the-guide-to-peer-to-peer-encryption-and-tor-new-communication-infrastructure-for-anarchists/ https://itsgoingdown.org/the-guide-to-peer-to-peer-encryptio...
- crossroadsguy 2y agoDepending upon which OS are on. If Android - Briar is the most famous and obvious choice. On iOS? There are not any options really but wasn't any usable one around a year back the last I had checked. On iOS there are not many options for P2P w/o Internet (I assume that is what you meant - otherwise if you want P2P over Internet then there are some options although not really "truly" P2P of course - and of course if Internet is shut down or overwhelmed then it will be down). There's https://github.com/berty/berty https://github.com/berty/berty (the last time I tried it was crashing incessantly but it might have improved). I do not know of anything else really (there might be few but I am not sure).
- morkalork 2y agoHow safe is Bluetooth really? Cities has scanners used to track devices for monitoring road congestion, malls have scanners to measure foot traffic. I have to believe that anyone with access to stingray type of device can track Bluetooth as well.
- theoreticalmal 2y agoDon’t both Apple and Android implement random BT MAC addresses specifically to prevent this kind of tracking?
- mmooss 2y agoThere could be other fingerprints besides MAC addresses.
- snypher 2y agoHow about my smartwatch, or my $29 earbuds? They are always conveniently near the 'random mac' and can be used to fingerprint.
- AlphaCerium 2y agodon't bring them to a protest, simple :)
- grugagag 2y agoYeah, not sure many people are aware their beloved tech is spying on them. At this point face recognition and other tech can make it such that everyone is traced, filed and automatically sent summons of some sort.
- diggan 2y agoUsually, protests are located in one somewhat easily defined area, until you cannot be there anymore or the goal has moved somewhere else. So then you need to get to another spot, this is the moment you disconnect your battery until you've arrived at the other place. So yeah, they'd be able to say that "person A was at location B and later C", but not necessarily the way there or after/before those specific locations. I agree that the safest is to assume they can definitely track you no matter what protocol/antenna you use, so you have to chose what moment it's OK to be tracked (like large groups).
- tehjoker 2y agoThe battery thing can be important. One strategy law enforcement uses is to force your phone into a high energy state and zap the battery very quickly.
- theoreticalmal 2y agoWhat does this mean? What does the zapping accomplish?
- Cpoll 2y agoI'm guessing in this context it means drain the battery. I haven't heard of this technique, but it seems plausible, by tricking the phone into constantly transmitting over WiFi or cell.
- dinosaurdynasty 2y agoI wonder how useful purism phones are for this (all external communication, including GPS, has hardware shutoffs). They are expensive though...
- DaSHacka 2y agoCouldn't you achieve the same by just enabling airplane mode or similar on regular devices? I don't think niche devices with hardware killswitches should be necessary
- snypher 2y agoMy S23 enters airplane mode and the WiFi and Bluetooth are still connected... Airplane mode isn't what it used to be!
- portaouflop 2y agoI just have a 20 yo Nokia - doesn’t have all the fancy stuff, only can send texts
- timewizard 2y agoKeep in mind "Mens rea." If you are implicated in the crimes of the crowd all of these actions may be used to increase the penalties you face. Even if you "trust" the crowd, somehow, you should remember that agent provocateurs exist. You might ask what attending a large scale protest is intended to achieve and decide for yourself if the personal risks are worth it.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 2y agoAnd if those risks are too great due to state over-reach, best stay at home.
- nonrandomstring 2y agoThat seems too lenient on yourself. Why not do the right thing and hand yourself into the Inquisitor General for wrong-think about protesting? Maybe they'll go easy on you.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoAt the least you should confess your temptation to wrongthink at the nearest Larry Ellison AI monitoring 'oracle'. Landru...I mean Oracle AIs maintain social order through their constant AI vigilance. The good is the harmonious continuation of the Body.
- neilv 2y ago> You might ask what attending a large scale protest is intended to achieve and decide for yourself if the personal risks are worth it. True. But keep in mind that demonstration size can have an impact. Even just relatively large, not even a Million Man March. For example, relevant to recent news magnifying vile Nazi-saluting imbecile demographics: They tried to pull that at an event in Boston in 2017, but tens of thousands of counter-demonstrators showed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Free_Speech_Rally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Free_Speech_Rally We need more reminders that the US can be good people.
- giantg2 2y ago"investing in walkie-talkies that have encryption can be worth it as well" Generally not allowed in many bands in the US. Motorola sells some AES walkies. They're really the only ones I know of, and they're very expensive.
- echoangle 2y agoWell the whole point of hiding your tracks is evading law enforcement, why would you care if it’s illegal? Or is it because of the „only do one crime at a time“ thing?
- giantg2 2y agoWhy do you assume this is about doing illegal things? This is about protests, many of which never turn into riots or illegal acts.
- echoangle 2y agoI was thinking along the lines of „the state wants to oppress the protestors and makes it illegal“, but if you just want to avoid surveillance at a legal protest, yeah, you’re right.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoGoing into a protest with illegal communication devices is almost a direct sabotage of the protest's intent. It gives law enforcement a legitimate reason to act, even if almost certainly ex post facto. And it paints the protest as wilfully illegal--you went in intending to break the law.
- paulryanrogers 2y agoIf you're protesting an oppressive regime then it's likely most privacy respecting methods are illegal.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoBurner phones aren't safe. Security through obscurity worked with the 1990s cell network but not with today's vast logging/geolocation tagging.
- scarface_74 2y agoThe idea is that they can’t tie the phone to a person. You also have to make sure you don’t get the burner phone some place with cameras.
- BrandonMarc 2y agoWhile true, I'm kinda wondering if that's even possible ...
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoOnce the phone is on, they can tie it to a person with geolocation. Either directly if you do it at home, or indirectly when traveling in a vehicle associated with you.
- scarface_74 2y agoThe rule is that you don’t use your burner phone at home, you use it when you are at the protest.
- Animats 2y agoIf you have two phones both turned on and they both move around similarly, they can be associated later.
- scarface_74 2y agoThey also tell you to keep one off until you get to the place. Never have both phones on at the same time. This is all well documented https://www.offgridweb.com/preparation/burner-phone-basics-how-to-set-up-an-anonymous-prepaid-phone/amp/ https://www.offgridweb.com/preparation/burner-phone-basics-h...
- nostradumbasp 2y agoTurn your phone off, and wrap it in 5 layers of tin foil. Or like you said leave the stupid thing at home.
- HumanOstrich 2y agoHey that should go well with my tin foil hat.
- nostradumbasp 2y agoThey actually sell those now. Well they use "faraday fabric". So that's another solution, but your phone one your head and put a foil hat on it.
- esperent 2y ago> so worth planning to use apps that can chat over P2P WiFi or Bluetooth together with the rest of your friends I can't even get Bluetooth audio to work reliably in a crowded cafe, are you sure these other protocols would fare better?
- pclmulqdq 2y agoMessaging doesn't have the same real-time requirements. It's still often flaky.
- AnarchismIsCool 2y ago.....please don't rely on cell towers being too overloaded to track you. The rest of the advice is solid.....but the premise is just gonna get you v&.
- diggan 2y agoMy note about overloaded towers is not about that they'll be unable to track you, but you'll be unable to use public internet to communicate with the rest of your group.
- Xen9 2y agoAbsolutely best idea is to make an encrypted PDA & play forensic scientist by recording everything. 1. Get a Google Pixel 9, 9 Pro, or 9 Pro XL smartphone (Cellebrite-proofn at time of writing). 2. Verify images & GOS. 3. Disable biometrics & wireless connections. 4. Memorize with Anki or your own head a new, NIST-compliant passphrase with ≥ 8+ words. 3. Get a cover for the smartphone. 4. Buy EMI tape and electrically insulating waterproof tape. 5. Tape the insides of the cover with EMI, layering it & govering the inner walls as well, no gaps (overlay two adjacent layer always, say ≥ 1 cm, if possible) 6. Add one layer of the other tape to insides of the cover 7. Story inside your underpants 24/7 powered off when you don't use it. My setup is more secure than not having phone, a Qubes laptop, a 2G burner, or not having phone.
- dartos 2y agoHow is it more secure than not having a phone?
- MrDrMcCoy 2y agoBy capturing evidence of what happens to you that cannot be tampered with.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- redeux 2y agoBut that’s not security, it’s usability. Just by virtue of taking your phone to a less safe place you’re lowering its security. Taking a small offline camera would be a lot more secure if your concern is recording the events.
- dartos 2y agoAny honest threat model assumes that any internet-connected device is already compromised…
- thunfischbrot 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]