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All federal agencies ordered to terminate remote work–ideally within 30 days
- OfficeChad 2y ago[dead]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- maxehmookau 2y agoDisappointing, but hardly surprising at this point. The idea that productivity will be improved by increased "supervision" is hilarious. It will cause the higher performers to start looking elsewhere; but perhaps that is the aim.
- brightball 2y agoPretty sure that is the aim.
- hx8 2y agoLower performers (maybe even average performers) actually work better if the boss physically present. I wonder if it will all even out because of the ratio of high performers in the federal government.
- ameister14 2y agoI don't think I've ever worked a white collar job where a couple of low performance people equaled the output of a single high performing employee.
- mangamadaiyan 2y agoAre you writing this from experience? If so, is this from experience as a boss, as a low (maybe even average) performer, or a high performer? How do you know that your statement is true?
- zo1 2y agoNot OP. But we all have different motivating factors each with their own level of efficacy. As someone with ADHD (and who knows what else), I've found it very helpful to have some sort of colleague or peer or "boss"-type supervision or nudging, and I say this as a "high performer" if we want to use that term. This kind of motivation is almost non-existent in a WFH context as check ins and other such regular interactions are very high-pressure.
- nxobject 2y agoThis comment isn't intended as an opinion on RTO, but one of the things that's helped me with ADHD has been to go for frequent walks after short bursts of work – I've actually thrived at remote work for that reason. We've all had to learn our own techniques to get our brains to cooperate with our goals.
- mangamadaiyan 2y agoMy point is that one cannot make blanket statements about "low performers performing better under supervision". I say this as someone who prefers to work from an office at least 4 days a week. You're right, each of us have differing motivations. That doesn't give anyone license to promote their own point of view and tar everyone else with the same brush.
- CoastalCoder 2y agoI second the parent comment. It describes me almost perfectly.
- spicymaki 2y agoI think that performance optimization is not a one size fits all thing. Much of performance has to do with if you are the right fit for a specific environment. Some low performers can become high performers if they are in the right place and vice versa. By narrowing the environment you make it worse overall.
- jacknews 2y agoHigh performance isn't just about quantity. Even a 1_000_000_000 monkeys will never realistically write so much as a limerick.
- 52-6F-62 2y ago“High performance” people don’t take quiet jobs like that because it’s a sink. They take jobs like that to stay well, well away from toxic, imperialist crap like the band you see gathered behind Trump in his inauguration photos… I wish more sensible Americans would see this as the start of a new expansionist initiative that it all is and act accordingly. Edit: all you who slander humanities reading so much should really spend much more time in history and philosophy beyond the first chapters of “how awesome was Rome you guys”
- TimTheTinker 2y ago> band you see gathered behind Trump I really like traditional American band music. It's inspiring and uplifting.
- 52-6F-62 2y agoRight. Nice to see the smartest minds of America back at their best…
- soupfordummies 2y agoThey literally stated as much: "“Requiring federal employees to come to the office five days a week would result in a wave of voluntary terminations that we welcome"
- tomrod 2y agoFeds have a hard time hiring under current hiring requirements and resources, so this is just going to restrict that further. Sounds inefficient.
- failuser 2y agoThat’s the point.
- Molitor5901 2y agoI work closely with federal employees and I have not seen that. The benefits are some of the best in the world. With near-guaranteed pay raises, cost of living adjustments, discount public transit, and countless other pensions and perks, it's not easy to get a federal job. I have friends who have been trying for years to get hired but it has been very competitive for them.
- seethishat 2y agoNot to mention the best health insurance in the US, which is very important as workers age.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoYou can buy the same on healthcare.gov. And if you retire early, you can plan it so your income stays below the ACA subsidy limits and the premiums go down to near zero. Although, you will need to pay extra for concierge care/direct primary care either way to see a doctor in a timely manner.
- scarface_74 2y agoI’ve worked at 10 jobs and 7 of those were after the ACA became effective. Out of those latter 7, I’ve worked for companies with 60 employees to the second largest employer in the US. The ACA has set an acceptable minimal of how bad private insurance can be.
- therobot24 2y agoGov job in tech is like any other job, the best employees who can work together successfully to solve problems is best optimized over a wide area (spatially). There are other benefits of strong employee rights and stability in work, ability to transfer to other departments a pretty simple process (which opens the type of work you can do while still being employed so much easier), and good health/retirement packages. These are motivators for people to want to stay with the Gov when already hired in, but to new and existing talent that have more options, the lack of remote and/or telework can be make or break. If we actually want a Gov that can perform, because people do that work and thus would want good people, we should be not artificially constraining ourselves on how to achieve that goal.
- sovietmudkipz 2y agoI wonder if they’ll also start paying a market price for skilled labor.
- aduffy 2y agoSadly not, the pay scales can’t be changed without congressional approval.
- boringg 2y agoBut that pension is nice.
- Retric 2y agoDoesn’t compete with compound interest on lower initial salaries. But it’s a sweet mid career backup if you’ve already messed things up.
- lolinder 2y agoPensions compete with self-directed retirement in the same way that a salary competes with founding your own business: they take all the risk and all the mental effort and give you something you can (mostly) rely on without any added effort, in exchange for a smaller return than is technically possible if you took the risk and planning effort yourself. Some people would definitely be better off managing their own retirement, but just due to the way these things work my bet is about half of all people (the left of the bell curve) would be better off with a pension.
- Retric 2y agoPensions are also risky when you’re young because so much of their value depends on the final salary. Leave a job young without those promotions and 5 years of service can mean almost nothing 30+ years later in retirement. Where you sit on that bell curve isn’t obvious at age 20, but it’s much clearer at age 40. Benefiting people who have already messed things up and swap. Thus that single binary choice after college is likely suboptimal.
- intunderflow 2y agoYou can see 18F frantically making policy updates on https://github.com/18F/handbook/commits/main/ https://github.com/18F/handbook/commits/main/
- svara 2y agoWow, I can't decide whether it's hilarious or creepy to see "update conduct-and-norms.md" from a government body.
- __del__ 2y agoperhaps "Delete pages/general-information-and-resources/psychological-safety.md" will inspire a less ambiguous response
- benterix 2y agoThe "remove remote-first language" is shaping reality just in front of our eyes. This is a huge step backwards for employees rights and I hope the next presidents reverts this incompetent decision.
- sitzkrieg 2y agothis link is totally throttled as of now cool! ive never seen github do that
- TYPE_FASTER 2y agoInteresting that it's throttled in Safari for me but not Chrome.
- laidoffamazon 2y agoSimultaneously they also want to sell a bunch of federal real estate - I support that, but it seems like there's an inherent contradiction there. People assume effective bureaucracy is small bureaucracy but ultimately the size and effectiveness aren't correlated - you're just creating queues if it's too small.
- bananapub 2y agothere's no contradiction at all - the purpose of this is to make most of the structure of the State less effective and to let your friends clean up by buying property at low prices. people need to adjust their world view, the transition to kleptocracy has already happened. we are in the afterwards now.
- tyingq 2y agoGenerally, "small" isn't meant to denote how many worker bees are doing actual work. It's meant to denote a small number of fifedoms introducing their own rules, forms, processes, approvals, etc into the process.
- 9rx 2y agoWord on the street (although there are a lot of words on the street, so take it for what you will) is that the decision was made based a report that many workers would quit over it. Even ignoring that, it is hard to imagine that some wouldn't quit over it. Coupled with the hiring freeze, there is no apparent contradiction. It is not like the Presidential team has been shy about letting it be known that these jobs are on the chopping block anyway. If people will leave by their own accord then it is a lot easier than forcing them out.
- scarface_74 2y agoIt’s one of the oldest financial tricks in the book to sell your commercial real estate to a private company for a quick buck and then lease it back. It’s what many of the private equity companies do. I suspect under the current administration they will sell the buildings to their cronies.
- seethishat 2y agoThe cost of dealing with remote employees who are not contributing as they should falls on the agencies. That's not insignificant. By requiring everyone to return, that cost is eliminated (or at least much less). IMO, in-person, on-site that cost is much less and the problems are easier to spot early and deal with before they get worse or become more widespread (more and more workers start slacking off).
- _m_p 2y agoThe agencies pass it on to the taxpayers.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago> IMO, in-person, on-site that cost is much less and the problems are easier to spot early and deal with before they get worse Yeah that's an opinion alright. I expect it's mostly shared by managers who are unable or unwilling to really think through the question of how they can monitor their employees' productivity. If you need to visibly see someone working to measure where their productivity is versus your expectations, you're probably not a very good manager and you don't have a great handle on what your people are doing.
- scarface_74 2y agoAnd people don’t goof off in the office?
- jgaa 2y agoWith all the BS the new administration is coming up with, I guess the federal government lose anyone competent that is not a very loyal Trump supporter.
- StefanBatory 2y agoMaybe that's the point.
- TikTikFook 2y ago[dead]
- marcuskane2 2y agoIt's amazing that in our lifetimes we got to witness both the creation of the internet and the destruction of America. Attacking clean energy, defunding medical research, mass purging federal workers. The Trump administration has done more to harm Americans in a few days than Al-Qaeda, the Soviets, Iran or China could have hoped to do in years. My condolences to everyone affected by this and my thanks to everyone working to maintain a functioning society through this time.
- thih9 2y ago> American taxpayers are wasting billions to pay for owned and leased federal office space that remain largely vacant Maybe this is an opportunity for savings instead of a forced RTO? Then again, I doubt it's worthwhile to reason about this decision; we've seen more controversial ones already (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42785891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42785891 ) and I guess this is not the final one.
- scarface_74 2y agoEven though Trump was there for the stargate announcement, there are no government funds involved. But why is Stargate controversial? If private companies want to spend $500 billion, why should we care? Yes I know part of it is debt financing. But back to your point, look at the all of the wasteful military bases in the US and weapons programs that the military brass keeps trying to get rid of but the civilian leadership keeps blocking because of civilian job loss in thier districts. Follow the money.
- whamlastxmas 2y agoThe government is heavily involved with stargate bc it’s only possible due to fast tracking and eliminating regulations for them to build
- esotericimpl 2y ago[dead]
- scarface_74 2y agoAs far as I know, none of the data center builders have had major problems with states or the federal government.
- Yeul 2y agoIsn't the US military just a disguised jobs program? A way out for the poor and underprivileged?
- marcosdumay 2y agoWell, at least now we have RTO firmly associated with the gesture the head of DOGE made on his speech a couple of days ago.
- archagon 2y agoHow long before MAGA starts calling WFH “woke,” I wonder?
- secretsatan 2y agoHow long? That was happening from the beginning, they have to direct their hate to new terms to keep it fresh, but generally, anything different to how they did it in the 1950s must be eliminated
- cheshire137 2y agoYou mean his Nazi salute?
- thomquaid 2y ago[flagged]
- marcosdumay 2y agoIt's very clear you meant this as a joke here, but we will see a constant stream of people claiming that the image we saw was caused by light reflecting on a weather balloon or something.
- marcosdumay 2y agoNo idea why you got downvoted. Has somebody around here not seen it? Yeah, I meant his Nazi salute.
- 5555624 2y agoWe're still waiting guidance as to whether this applies just to remote work or if it includes telework. (A few years ago, we were told that the difference was remote workers worked completely remote; but, teleworkers have a cubicle or office.) The Executive Order says "remote work arrangements"; but, it then says. "require employees to return to work in-person at their respective duty stations on a full-time basis" Most of our personnel telework one, sometimes two, days per week. We do have a couple of remote workers, who are military spouses and they're wondering if that falls under the possible exemptions.
- choult 2y agoThere will be no exceptions. Trump, Musk et al don't understand compromise.
- 5555624 2y agoWe'll see. The Executive Order allows for exemptions, "provided that the department and agency heads shall make exemptions they deem necessary." The big question is what criteria shall be used for those exemptions.
- nxobject 2y agoAs someone who cares about government efficiency, I hope it’ll service as an escape hatch to help agencies avoid the worst impacts of this policy. But I’m sure it’ll be a a way to reward political appointees with perks that career civil servants don’t get.
- pabs3 2y agoHmm, "duty stations" adds a lot of wiggle room when that can be located anywhere.
- picafrost 2y agoEmployers, government or not, still wield far too much power over the personal lives of employees. I think it is rather meaningless to try and understand why RTO is en vogue now. Why is the discussion so rarely focused on the fact that your boss can demand that you uplift your life or else you're fired, immediately and with impunity, and what you have to say about it means absolutely nothing? Maybe I am baffled by this because I live and work in Europe where the relationship is a bit better (though I am not sure for how much longer it will remain as such). Americans seem very content to allow this behavior as normal because, obviously, other employees (but not me, I am a great employee!) must serve their stakeholders better so we can gain every bit of efficiency and increase precious income in the economy.
- 9rx 2y ago> must serve their stakeholders better so we can gain every bit of efficiency and increase precious income in the economy. The problem with this characterization is that Americans hold the same kind view for all relationships, not just work-related relationships. For example: Married someone who starts making your life miserable? Too bad. It is your fault for choosing to have a relationship with the wrong person, they will tell you. There is no will to extend special concessions to force the spouse to play nice there either. The public is content to let you grin and bear it or end the relationship.
- senordevnyc 2y agoI’m so confused by this comment. Other than physical abuse, what entity do you think should be empowered to force a spouse to “play nice”? Do other countries have government agencies that force wives to be nice to their husbands, or vice versa?
- 9rx 2y agoConsider me equally confused. What should be is what is. If it shouldn't be that way, it wouldn't be that way. What, exactly, is your question trying to ask? Are you trying to ask me to invent hypotheticals of how things could be if there was some kind of parallel universe where Americans hold different relationship values? I can try to fumble around on that idea, even if it is a little silly. A previous comment indicates that some people value autonomy in choosing where (as in physical location) to participate in a relationship, even if contrary to the desires of another party in the relationship, without reprisal. Perhaps we can work off that? What does that mean in practice? Hard to say. I've never been to that parallel universe to truly understand it. But, perhaps, that means something like penalties for a party who chooses to leave a relationship if they are unhappy with how frequently another party is physically present in the relationship? I'll admit I am too engrossed in the "American way" to go any deeper with that. It seems normal and expected to me that if any party wants to leave a relationship, it is their life to live and other parties should be accepting of their choice. Anything else is foreign to me. I can't offer much here as a result, but maybe someone from a different culture that sees relationships in a different light can chime in?
- francisofascii 2y agoThis will be interesting to see how this plays out in DC. Gridlock traffic? Will Metro ridership will go back to pre-Covid levels? I am skeptical this will be nothing more than a hybrid work arrangement for most people.
- Yeul 2y agoI find this American style of leadership fascinating. It is certainly easier than the Dutch style of endless meetings and giving everyone a say.
- grajaganDev 2y agoI hope they have enough office space ready for this RTO. Amazon did not and had to delay RTO and even some start dates for new hires.
- jvdvegt 2y agoDoes playing golf all day count RTO? Or does the president himself not have to return to the office?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]