4 ms·

If there in fact is a bunch of subterranean hydrogen that’s mostly or entirely free of carbon, that is a big deal. Still I worry that we are continuing to hitch

by api 2y ago

If there in fact is a bunch of subterranean hydrogen that’s mostly or entirely free of carbon, that is a big deal. Still I worry that we are continuing to hitch our trailer to non renewable resources, which cannot be a long term basis for an advanced civilization. Whatever happened to super deep geothermal drilling? That’s renewable at least on human time scales and we can tap quite a lot of power that way.

anovikov 2y ago
It works. It's just that there's so much easier to extract energy, both renewable and non-renewable, that no one seems to bother. We can fairly see it as a hedge in case "something goes badly wrong with all other renewable energy sources", same as methane hydrates are for non-renewable fuels - also plentiful and technically exploitable, just unable to stand competition with cheap fracked gas. Whole "energy crisis" is made-up. There is no energy crisis. We have oceans of energy of all sorts available, it's just that the memory of 1973 oil embargo permits both sides of political spectrum to manipulate people by, as usually happens, fear (right wing), or guilt (left wing).
- api 2y ago
  I agree about a true energy crisis, but it depends on how long term you want to think. In the short term I think there's "problemists" on both left and right who actually hope for scarcity or collapse so that their preferred social system can rise from the ashes -- some kind of scaled-back communitarian socialism or neo-primitivism for the left, and various types of traditionalism for elements of the right.
  - anovikov 2y ago
    I didn't think of it that way, but you seem to be onto something. I can indeed see that at least some groups of far left and far right are looking for modern society to collapse because they see it as the best way to push their values forward. I hope they don't become mainstream though.
    - api 2y ago
      A common term for the most extreme of these groups is accelerationists. They believe in actually accelerating collapse to bring about the conditions for change. It's the kind of thing that's easy to believe when everything is abstract and you don't think about how this would affect real people.
- mnky9800n 2y ago
  Where is this molecular hydrogen in vast and accessible quantities?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    Where is the vast market for molecular hydrogen?
    - senectus1 2y ago
      Hydrogen is a molecule, you can use it as is or you can grab nitrogen from the air to turn it into ammonia etc etc In 2024, the global ammonia market was valued at $79.47 billion. its expected to grow significantly. Hydrogen is used in the metallurgy of smelting as well. Dont get fooled into thinking that hydrogen cars are not worth it therefore its not worth anything. Hydrogen is an almost magic molecule.. you can use it for loads of things for loads of different reasons.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        To me the most "almost magic" thing about hydrogen is that it's #1 on the periodic table. It's literally the minimum viable atom: 1 proton + 1 electron. And H2 is the minimum viable molecule: Join two of these atoms. The consequence is that it's small and can do the magic trick of vanishing, buy getting through gaps that other molecules can't, even permeate solid metals (1) Because of this, it's hard to work with, and won't be a general energy solution. You're right that hydrogen cars are not worth it. It will be used when you really need hydrogen specifically. But only then. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
    - defrost 2y ago
      Being more general than senectus1, Fertilizer is huge market, explosives and ordnance is (sadly) a huge market, synthetic fuels (eg: methanol for container ships) is a huge market - all of these are growing rapidly and looking for non traditional sources (eg: Hydrogen with much lower methane and trad fossil fuel miced in, "green hydrogen" from solar, etc.).
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  Energy is scarce, at least compared to the amounts people want so that they can enjoy a high standard of living. Pretending otherwise does not change that. Hydrogen is a battery technology, only storing energy we get elsewhere.
  - boringg 2y ago
    Energy is not scarce. It’s our translation mechanisms and own ability that is scarce. Look up that sun has produced our entire planet for millions of years and continues to do so. It’s virtually infinite compared to our needs. Then you notice all the other stars in the sky that are nuclear reactions going off.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      >Energy is not scarce. You're not even being pedantic. I could at least respect that. We're talking specifically about energy that can be used by human beings for comfort, manufacturing, and work. If it can't run your air conditioner or fabricate cheap baubles to keep the consumer economy going, then you're not even in the right conversation. And that kind of energy is scarce. "But but but what if we build a bunch of solar panels or windmills!!?!?!?" If we could magically have machines to harvest that technology, instead of having to resort to the modest quantities of machines we can actually build, then sure, energy wouldn't be scarce. But we don't have magic and we can't wish them into existence. There are limits. You might as well be talking about the black hole at the center of our galaxy, that's energy too. I'm hoping you're just missing the point and not a volunteer propagandist.

by api 2y ago

anovikov 2y ago

It works. It's just that there's so much easier to extract energy, both renewable and non-renewable, that no one seems to bother. We can fairly see it as a hedge in case "something goes badly wrong with all other renewable energy sources", same as methane hydrates are for non-renewable fuels - also plentiful and technically exploitable, just unable to stand competition with cheap fracked gas. Whole "energy crisis" is made-up. There is no energy crisis. We have oceans of energy of all sorts available, it's just that the memory of 1973 oil embargo permits both sides of political spectrum to manipulate people by, as usually happens, fear (right wing), or guilt (left wing).

api 2y ago
I agree about a true energy crisis, but it depends on how long term you want to think. In the short term I think there's "problemists" on both left and right who actually hope for scarcity or collapse so that their preferred social system can rise from the ashes -- some kind of scaled-back communitarian socialism or neo-primitivism for the left, and various types of traditionalism for elements of the right.
- anovikov 2y ago
  I didn't think of it that way, but you seem to be onto something. I can indeed see that at least some groups of far left and far right are looking for modern society to collapse because they see it as the best way to push their values forward. I hope they don't become mainstream though.
  - api 2y ago
    A common term for the most extreme of these groups is accelerationists. They believe in actually accelerating collapse to bring about the conditions for change. It's the kind of thing that's easy to believe when everything is abstract and you don't think about how this would affect real people.
mnky9800n 2y ago
Where is this molecular hydrogen in vast and accessible quantities?
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  Where is the vast market for molecular hydrogen?
  - senectus1 2y ago
    Hydrogen is a molecule, you can use it as is or you can grab nitrogen from the air to turn it into ammonia etc etc In 2024, the global ammonia market was valued at $79.47 billion. its expected to grow significantly. Hydrogen is used in the metallurgy of smelting as well. Dont get fooled into thinking that hydrogen cars are not worth it therefore its not worth anything. Hydrogen is an almost magic molecule.. you can use it for loads of things for loads of different reasons.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      To me the most "almost magic" thing about hydrogen is that it's #1 on the periodic table. It's literally the minimum viable atom: 1 proton + 1 electron. And H2 is the minimum viable molecule: Join two of these atoms. The consequence is that it's small and can do the magic trick of vanishing, buy getting through gaps that other molecules can't, even permeate solid metals (1) Because of this, it's hard to work with, and won't be a general energy solution. You're right that hydrogen cars are not worth it. It will be used when you really need hydrogen specifically. But only then. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
  - defrost 2y ago
    Being more general than senectus1, Fertilizer is huge market, explosives and ordnance is (sadly) a huge market, synthetic fuels (eg: methanol for container ships) is a huge market - all of these are growing rapidly and looking for non traditional sources (eg: Hydrogen with much lower methane and trad fossil fuel miced in, "green hydrogen" from solar, etc.).
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
Energy is scarce, at least compared to the amounts people want so that they can enjoy a high standard of living. Pretending otherwise does not change that. Hydrogen is a battery technology, only storing energy we get elsewhere.
- boringg 2y ago
  Energy is not scarce. It’s our translation mechanisms and own ability that is scarce. Look up that sun has produced our entire planet for millions of years and continues to do so. It’s virtually infinite compared to our needs. Then you notice all the other stars in the sky that are nuclear reactions going off.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    >Energy is not scarce. You're not even being pedantic. I could at least respect that. We're talking specifically about energy that can be used by human beings for comfort, manufacturing, and work. If it can't run your air conditioner or fabricate cheap baubles to keep the consumer economy going, then you're not even in the right conversation. And that kind of energy is scarce. "But but but what if we build a bunch of solar panels or windmills!!?!?!?" If we could magically have machines to harvest that technology, instead of having to resort to the modest quantities of machines we can actually build, then sure, energy wouldn't be scarce. But we don't have magic and we can't wish them into existence. There are limits. You might as well be talking about the black hole at the center of our galaxy, that's energy too. I'm hoping you're just missing the point and not a volunteer propagandist.