6 ms·

Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

52 points by nithinj 2y ago

anigbrowl 2y ago
Last time I checked, the birthrate in Tokyo is actually pretty robust,I think it was 2.3 or something like that. It's the rest of the country where young people are reluctant to start families for a variety of economic and social reasons. A few of the leftish parties in Japan decentralization policies as part of their platform, and indeed much of the LDP's support comes from rural constituencies so you'd think they'd be in favor of it. But economic incentives for childrearing sometimes find themselves at odds with conservative mores around family roles and employment.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h02015/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h02015/ > June 2024: Japan’s total fertility rate hit a new low of 1.20 in 2023, with the rate for Tokyo falling to 0.99 for the first time. https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-workweek-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-w... > December 2024: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    Sorry, I remembered it backwards. IT's the rural areas which have the fertility rate around 2.3 (which I also remembered as little high, but only by a few %): https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01975/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01975/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jopsen 2y ago
Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.
- citadel_melon 2y ago
  What if they provided your child nightcare too
- barbazoo 2y ago
  Not sure if you have access to affordable child care and parental PTO (after birth but also “my kid is sick I need to stay home” type of PTO). It makes everything a lot more manageable.
- krasin 2y ago
  With siblings of similar age, it's much harder in the first 2-3 years (external help is essential), but then the kids considerably shortcircuit to each other, so it becomes easier than having just one, constantly bored child. Source: I am a father of two daughters with less than 2 years difference; and my brother is also less than 2 years apart from me. So, I lived my advice in both aspects: as a parent and as a child.
- alexpotato 2y ago
  This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)
  - yoyohello13 2y ago
    > ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rpcope1 2y ago
It's probably going to take way more than just free daycare to make a dent. If declining birthrates can be swung back to a more neutral rate like 2.1, it probably will mean wide reaching financial, cultural, and general societal changes. I think something like the Order of Maternal Glory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Maternal_Glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Maternal_Glory) but for like 3+ kids, where there's additional social standing in addition to significant financial support, would be a good start.
- j7ake 2y ago
  Free day care is amazing. If that doesn’t make a dent then I am not sure what will. Probably free daycare and relaxing immigration would be best to increase population
  - gedy 2y ago
    Able to live on one salary comfortably?
  - Animats 2y ago
    > Free day care is amazing. If that doesn’t make a dent then I am not sure what will. France has a subsidy program for kids. It's not helping much. Current fertility rate is 1.85 (2.1 is breakeven). The only thing that seems to work is a religion that keeps women home pumping out babies and taking care of them. Islam and Haredi Judaism do that. There's a Christian "quiverfull" movement in the US, but it's not big enough to matter.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
    - j7ake 2y ago
      1.85 is actually the highest in Western Europe and higher than Canada and USA.
      - orwin 2y ago
        But we had 2.1 not so long ago. The issue is non-market housing used to be roughly 30% of the renting market, applying downward pressure on rent prices and thus, house prices. It's now less than 20%, with 95% being 'HLMs' (and a big part of those were from 'loi Pinel' that ended this year). We need to get back to a high percentage of non-market housing. My father used to be the co-director of a 'chantier d'insertion' where he was teaching basic woodworking/painting/construction/DYI and also artistic skills to people (mostly men) outside of the workforce (from the 16yo dropout to the 54yo ex-farmer), and they did own a few buildings they restored, to help house everyone (they also had people teaching mechanics, electric, plumbing, gardening btw). The local city council changed it's political side, the initiative was shut down and the non-market houses bidded on. The GDP of our city that year probably skyrocketed. PS: not on the subject: he still had time to clean up an ex-slaughterhouse with his guys, and organize an art exposition inside, with 'mort aux vaches' tagged outside with blood-looking paint, which, considering the new mayor was from a military family, had a not subtle double meaning.
andrewclunn 2y ago
Kids are hard. People are selfish. Birth control works. The dating market is torture. Divorce is rampant. We're constantly bombarded with environmental destruction predictions. Most wealthy nations have leaders that seem content to replace the existing populous with poor immigrants. Even the poor nations that these immigrants are coming from are now seeing their birth rates collapse. Culture and laws requiring constant child supervision and care make parenting a full time job (for at least a few years). The prices of basic living expenses keep rising. But don't worry, free child care will save us! Only the super wealthy and those with no money at all are reproducing above replacement levels, and I'm here to watch as the urban "economic growth at the expense of everything else" culture consumes itself into non-existence in a generation or two.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  Best comment here. The "people are selfish" is what drives everything, ultimately. If they find no good reason to have kids, and can have a comfortable and satisfying life in other ways, they will.
- colmvp 2y ago
  Couldn't agree more. "Kids are hard. People are selfish." - More people than ever before want to live a life free of the responsibilities of having children, which is totally fine but never gets talked about in this discussion about birthrate. I have a lot of financially secure friends who never want kids. "The dating market is torture." - Expectations of dating, especially online dating are very different from previous generations and kind of wack. I admit to falling into the trap of feeling like someone else out there is better and not giving the person I met online more of a chance past the first date. I'm sure others who I was with had the same reaction. Next thing you know, you're past the age of wanting or even being able to have a child. Either way, it's crazy when you see online discussions about how such and such city has a dearth of good matches which seems statistically improbable.
- incog_nit0 2y ago
  I have 13 cousins. My two kids have 2. When I ask my cousins and siblings why they don't want to have the kids the opinions range from too much of a restriction to my freedoms, too expensive, too much work, it'll ruin my body. These area all valid reasons and in fact it was a tough sell for my wife and I to convince ourselves whether even we should have children. I'm glad I did, but I had no idea how much work it takes and I honestly would not judge anyone who opts-out of having them - but...it does mean we face demographic collapse and free child care is just not enough. Give young families cheaper homes, cheaper college education and have a cultural shift which values having a child as much as a career if not more so and maybe we'll start to see things change.
ggm 2y ago
I suffer from confirmation bias in this, but the Japanese women I know all live outside mainland Japan, and are mostly in mixed marriages with non-Japanese men and to a woman they say childbirth in Japan, and expectations on new mothes in Japan are net-negative compared to the english-speaking west, with some small things the other way. Aspects of family mean they are more likely to have a support network in Japan, and there are quite a lot of good child friendly social experiences for them. None of them said the birth experience in Japanese Maternity Hospitals was good, or as good as in the west. The birth rate problem in the developed economies is not just a Japanese problem, but if this biased view is true, more generally accurate, it cannot help: Why would you want to have kids, if its a shit experience? Free daycare is sensible but I suspect they will have to start 9 months back in the flow pipe, and also do some things around labour laws for return-to-work.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  I live in Japan and am friends with foreign women who chose to live here, so I guess I have the opposite confirmation bias, but the people I know who gave birth here have been super happy with the help that mothers get here, getting to stay in the maternity ward for a week with 24/7 nurse support to help recover and getting breastfeeding going. Along with the government paying for the procedure making it free and a bunch of other support. I also have friends who had such bad experiences in the west to the point they ended up going with home birth... From my experience talking to people, the reason for the low birth rate here is the same as in any other country.
  - ggm 2y ago
    Thank you for reversing my bias. Probably the women who I know left Japan 10-15 years ago, and thats a lifetime in terms of healthcare, social interactions, you-name-it. Everyone I know who gave birth in the netherlands commented on the low levels of pain relief available!
elzbardico 2y ago
This won't work and it is fine. Nothing is permanent, world population has fallen considerably in other times in history. Yeah, the GDP will probably drop, but necessarely the per capita GDP. Yeah, a falling GDP is not good news for people who lend money and expect compound interest over a long horizon of time, some defaults will happen, probably we would end up having to forgive some debts and writing off a lot of stuff, but so what?
- space_fountain 2y ago
  A large class of people who loan money are people looking to fund a retirement. This will be devastating to them
  - EZ-E 2y ago
    I'm sure financial engineering will find a way to make it work in the end
    - space_fountain 2y ago
      Retirement is about having other people take care of you. If there are less people overall there are less resources to care for the elderly who aren't working. With expanding populations this is easier to manage because the fraction of people who are elderly is smaller, but it can be a huge drain if that changes. This is about resources and no amount of financial engineering can solve it, though financial engineering will probably keep people off the streets
  - ekianjo 2y ago
    Retirement will be a thing of the past soon enough so the problem will solve itself.
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  People seem to be downvoting this but it’s true. We are entering a dip in population growth. Shit happens. We will come out the other side. Did they think “infinite growth” would be a sustainable strategy? Hopefully we will come up with an economic system that’s more focused on human fulfillment than productivity.
ein0p 2y ago
Too late, I think. Once not having kids becomes "normal" and socially acceptable, it'll take a lot of heavy handed propaganda and much stronger incentives to convince people otherwise. Raising kids is a civilizationally necessary hard work that needs to be "normalized" and "expected" for people to actually do it.
- horrible-hilde 2y ago
  People in my country dont even want to pay taxes for the roads we drive on. The same people are trying to force others to have kids with no incentives and lackluster futures. It’s just a bad deal.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    You do understand that those who do not procreate inevitably die out in the long run, right? That does not bode well for the taxable base either, and therefore for the roads.
    - horrible-hilde 2y ago
      then you should pay prople for their labor. Seriously, would you do this kind of all consuming labor for free? Our society has lived off the free labor of women and has gotten lazy and thankless.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        We're talking about _Japan_. They, presumably, already "pay people for their labor" and collect enough taxes for infrastructure.
        horrible-hilde 2y ago
        show me how they are paying women?
Two4 2y ago
Radical idea: treat mothers as professionals. Train them, certify them, give them resources and support networks, then pay them to raise kids until school age or even beyond. It is a full time job, and should be treated as such if governments want to incentivise childbirth.
- poisonborz 2y ago
  Why just mothers?
  - orwin 2y ago
    To be honest, on this I understand what gp mean, I might be sexist for this, but to me decisions to have children is a burden put mostly on the mother (the decision only, not the 40 years after that). I didn't want any child, but clearly stated that I would support any choice she made, and any children we would have would have my love and support. I don't bear any social pressure to have kids, I don't get pregnant, i don't feel any kind of desire to have children (I used to be a youth camp counselor, my ego about being a role model was well filled by the time I was 25). Anyway, since the choice is primarily on the mother (as it should be), it stands within reason that the formation and remuneration are given to them in priority.
  - Two4 2y ago
    You're absolutely right, not just mothers should be able to participate. However, the physical and emotional effects and trauma of childbirth are borne by women alone, so they're usually the party that needs to be incentivised. We're also operating within the social framework of Japan, which is deeply patriarchal.
- Agraillo 2y ago
  It's ironic that progress that freed many people from hard agricultural jobs and allowed society to free part of the population from daytime jobs was mostly directed at non-child-bearing categories like children and teens (to learn and study for future jobs) and elderly (to retire earlier than in previous centuries). The age ideal for raising children is also ideal for economics to be a part of it
xnx 2y ago
Efficiency is the new growth
majikaja 2y ago
Standards changed, lots of people are too unattractive to marry now.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- majikaja 2y ago
  Funny I'm being downvoted for this comment when it's you engineers that created the social media and dating apps that contributed to this situation.
bencarlos 2y ago
[dead]
msteffen 2y ago
Parenting threads always raise my hackles, and I’ve been up since 1:30 this morning with a sick kid so can’t not take this bait. In my opinion the issue is social, and it’s this: kids are essential to society but, these days, non-parents have little to no experience with kids. They’re entirely unfamiliar with even basic child physiology and psychology or the requirements of adequate childcare at different ages. Two top-of-mind examples of this manifesting, in my opinion: - When someone calls into work and says “I can’t come to work today because my kid is sick, I need to reschedule or hand off all my meetings” do they hear “no problem, thanks for being a parent?” or “can you join for just a little bit?” (“I would very much prefer that, but I don’t think you’ll like having a wailing kid on the call. Where would my kid be while I’m joined? Realistic suggestions only, please.”) Since I should probably make my comment relevant to TFA: most daycares do not allow you to bring your kid if they’re sick. So free daycare doesn’t at all ameliorate this very common and very stressful problem. - At the beginning of Covid, Google gave extra leave to parents, and non-parents were up in arms (including on HN IIRC. I’ll see if I can find the thread). How about, you can have extra leave if you spend it caring for kids, since the schools are closed, so there’s a shortage of childcare, which is a society-wide problem. I’m confident you’ll find that programming computers is an easier way to contribute in this crisis.
- msteffen 2y ago
  Another great comment noted that historically society made women do all the childcare and didn’t record what they thought about this, which, yes. It was probably always the case that non-parents knew hilariously little about kids, but back then, Mom had to deal with whatever crises emerged while Dad could work like he was single. No this was not fair.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- mc3301 2y ago
  They aren't super common (like, each town has basically one), but here in Japan there are pediatric clinics with "sick daycare" where you can drop your sick child off in the morning to be looked after all day while you go to work. And they are (basically) free.

52 points by nithinj 2y ago

Last time I checked, the birthrate in Tokyo is actually pretty robust,I think it was 2.3 or something like that. It's the rest of the country where young people are reluctant to start families for a variety of economic and social reasons. A few of the leftish parties in Japan decentralization policies as part of their platform, and indeed much of the LDP's support comes from rural constituencies so you'd think they'd be in favor of it. But economic incentives for childrearing sometimes find themselves at odds with conservative mores around family roles and employment.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h02015/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h02015/ > June 2024: Japan’s total fertility rate hit a new low of 1.20 in 2023, with the rate for Tokyo falling to 0.99 for the first time. https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-workweek-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/asia/tokyo-government-4-day-w... > December 2024: Tokyo government gives workers 4-day workweek to boost fertility, family time
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  Sorry, I remembered it backwards. IT's the rural areas which have the fertility rate around 2.3 (which I also remembered as little high, but only by a few %): https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01975/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01975/
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

jopsen 2y ago

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

citadel_melon 2y ago
What if they provided your child nightcare too
barbazoo 2y ago
Not sure if you have access to affordable child care and parental PTO (after birth but also “my kid is sick I need to stay home” type of PTO). It makes everything a lot more manageable.
krasin 2y ago
With siblings of similar age, it's much harder in the first 2-3 years (external help is essential), but then the kids considerably shortcircuit to each other, so it becomes easier than having just one, constantly bored child. Source: I am a father of two daughters with less than 2 years difference; and my brother is also less than 2 years apart from me. So, I lived my advice in both aspects: as a parent and as a child.
alexpotato 2y ago
This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)
- yoyohello13 2y ago
  > ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rpcope1 2y ago

It's probably going to take way more than just free daycare to make a dent. If declining birthrates can be swung back to a more neutral rate like 2.1, it probably will mean wide reaching financial, cultural, and general societal changes. I think something like the Order of Maternal Glory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Maternal_Glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Maternal_Glory) but for like 3+ kids, where there's additional social standing in addition to significant financial support, would be a good start.

j7ake 2y ago
Free day care is amazing. If that doesn’t make a dent then I am not sure what will. Probably free daycare and relaxing immigration would be best to increase population
- gedy 2y ago
  Able to live on one salary comfortably?
- Animats 2y ago
  > Free day care is amazing. If that doesn’t make a dent then I am not sure what will. France has a subsidy program for kids. It's not helping much. Current fertility rate is 1.85 (2.1 is breakeven). The only thing that seems to work is a religion that keeps women home pumping out babies and taking care of them. Islam and Haredi Judaism do that. There's a Christian "quiverfull" movement in the US, but it's not big enough to matter.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
  - j7ake 2y ago
    1.85 is actually the highest in Western Europe and higher than Canada and USA.
    - orwin 2y ago
      But we had 2.1 not so long ago. The issue is non-market housing used to be roughly 30% of the renting market, applying downward pressure on rent prices and thus, house prices. It's now less than 20%, with 95% being 'HLMs' (and a big part of those were from 'loi Pinel' that ended this year). We need to get back to a high percentage of non-market housing. My father used to be the co-director of a 'chantier d'insertion' where he was teaching basic woodworking/painting/construction/DYI and also artistic skills to people (mostly men) outside of the workforce (from the 16yo dropout to the 54yo ex-farmer), and they did own a few buildings they restored, to help house everyone (they also had people teaching mechanics, electric, plumbing, gardening btw). The local city council changed it's political side, the initiative was shut down and the non-market houses bidded on. The GDP of our city that year probably skyrocketed. PS: not on the subject: he still had time to clean up an ex-slaughterhouse with his guys, and organize an art exposition inside, with 'mort aux vaches' tagged outside with blood-looking paint, which, considering the new mayor was from a military family, had a not subtle double meaning.

andrewclunn 2y ago

Kids are hard. People are selfish. Birth control works. The dating market is torture. Divorce is rampant. We're constantly bombarded with environmental destruction predictions. Most wealthy nations have leaders that seem content to replace the existing populous with poor immigrants. Even the poor nations that these immigrants are coming from are now seeing their birth rates collapse. Culture and laws requiring constant child supervision and care make parenting a full time job (for at least a few years). The prices of basic living expenses keep rising. But don't worry, free child care will save us! Only the super wealthy and those with no money at all are reproducing above replacement levels, and I'm here to watch as the urban "economic growth at the expense of everything else" culture consumes itself into non-existence in a generation or two.

ekianjo 2y ago
Best comment here. The "people are selfish" is what drives everything, ultimately. If they find no good reason to have kids, and can have a comfortable and satisfying life in other ways, they will.
colmvp 2y ago
Couldn't agree more. "Kids are hard. People are selfish." - More people than ever before want to live a life free of the responsibilities of having children, which is totally fine but never gets talked about in this discussion about birthrate. I have a lot of financially secure friends who never want kids. "The dating market is torture." - Expectations of dating, especially online dating are very different from previous generations and kind of wack. I admit to falling into the trap of feeling like someone else out there is better and not giving the person I met online more of a chance past the first date. I'm sure others who I was with had the same reaction. Next thing you know, you're past the age of wanting or even being able to have a child. Either way, it's crazy when you see online discussions about how such and such city has a dearth of good matches which seems statistically improbable.
incog_nit0 2y ago
I have 13 cousins. My two kids have 2. When I ask my cousins and siblings why they don't want to have the kids the opinions range from too much of a restriction to my freedoms, too expensive, too much work, it'll ruin my body. These area all valid reasons and in fact it was a tough sell for my wife and I to convince ourselves whether even we should have children. I'm glad I did, but I had no idea how much work it takes and I honestly would not judge anyone who opts-out of having them - but...it does mean we face demographic collapse and free child care is just not enough. Give young families cheaper homes, cheaper college education and have a cultural shift which values having a child as much as a career if not more so and maybe we'll start to see things change.

ggm 2y ago

I suffer from confirmation bias in this, but the Japanese women I know all live outside mainland Japan, and are mostly in mixed marriages with non-Japanese men and to a woman they say childbirth in Japan, and expectations on new mothes in Japan are net-negative compared to the english-speaking west, with some small things the other way. Aspects of family mean they are more likely to have a support network in Japan, and there are quite a lot of good child friendly social experiences for them. None of them said the birth experience in Japanese Maternity Hospitals was good, or as good as in the west. The birth rate problem in the developed economies is not just a Japanese problem, but if this biased view is true, more generally accurate, it cannot help: Why would you want to have kids, if its a shit experience? Free daycare is sensible but I suspect they will have to start 9 months back in the flow pipe, and also do some things around labour laws for return-to-work.

kalleboo 2y ago
I live in Japan and am friends with foreign women who chose to live here, so I guess I have the opposite confirmation bias, but the people I know who gave birth here have been super happy with the help that mothers get here, getting to stay in the maternity ward for a week with 24/7 nurse support to help recover and getting breastfeeding going. Along with the government paying for the procedure making it free and a bunch of other support. I also have friends who had such bad experiences in the west to the point they ended up going with home birth... From my experience talking to people, the reason for the low birth rate here is the same as in any other country.
- ggm 2y ago
  Thank you for reversing my bias. Probably the women who I know left Japan 10-15 years ago, and thats a lifetime in terms of healthcare, social interactions, you-name-it. Everyone I know who gave birth in the netherlands commented on the low levels of pain relief available!

elzbardico 2y ago

This won't work and it is fine. Nothing is permanent, world population has fallen considerably in other times in history. Yeah, the GDP will probably drop, but necessarely the per capita GDP. Yeah, a falling GDP is not good news for people who lend money and expect compound interest over a long horizon of time, some defaults will happen, probably we would end up having to forgive some debts and writing off a lot of stuff, but so what?

space_fountain 2y ago
A large class of people who loan money are people looking to fund a retirement. This will be devastating to them
- EZ-E 2y ago
  I'm sure financial engineering will find a way to make it work in the end
  - space_fountain 2y ago
    Retirement is about having other people take care of you. If there are less people overall there are less resources to care for the elderly who aren't working. With expanding populations this is easier to manage because the fraction of people who are elderly is smaller, but it can be a huge drain if that changes. This is about resources and no amount of financial engineering can solve it, though financial engineering will probably keep people off the streets
- ekianjo 2y ago
  Retirement will be a thing of the past soon enough so the problem will solve itself.
yoyohello13 2y ago
People seem to be downvoting this but it’s true. We are entering a dip in population growth. Shit happens. We will come out the other side. Did they think “infinite growth” would be a sustainable strategy? Hopefully we will come up with an economic system that’s more focused on human fulfillment than productivity.

ein0p 2y ago

Too late, I think. Once not having kids becomes "normal" and socially acceptable, it'll take a lot of heavy handed propaganda and much stronger incentives to convince people otherwise. Raising kids is a civilizationally necessary hard work that needs to be "normalized" and "expected" for people to actually do it.

horrible-hilde 2y ago
People in my country dont even want to pay taxes for the roads we drive on. The same people are trying to force others to have kids with no incentives and lackluster futures. It’s just a bad deal.
- ein0p 2y ago
  You do understand that those who do not procreate inevitably die out in the long run, right? That does not bode well for the taxable base either, and therefore for the roads.
  - horrible-hilde 2y ago
    then you should pay prople for their labor. Seriously, would you do this kind of all consuming labor for free? Our society has lived off the free labor of women and has gotten lazy and thankless.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      We're talking about _Japan_. They, presumably, already "pay people for their labor" and collect enough taxes for infrastructure.
      - horrible-hilde 2y ago
        show me how they are paying women?

Two4 2y ago

Radical idea: treat mothers as professionals. Train them, certify them, give them resources and support networks, then pay them to raise kids until school age or even beyond. It is a full time job, and should be treated as such if governments want to incentivise childbirth.

poisonborz 2y ago
Why just mothers?
- orwin 2y ago
  To be honest, on this I understand what gp mean, I might be sexist for this, but to me decisions to have children is a burden put mostly on the mother (the decision only, not the 40 years after that). I didn't want any child, but clearly stated that I would support any choice she made, and any children we would have would have my love and support. I don't bear any social pressure to have kids, I don't get pregnant, i don't feel any kind of desire to have children (I used to be a youth camp counselor, my ego about being a role model was well filled by the time I was 25). Anyway, since the choice is primarily on the mother (as it should be), it stands within reason that the formation and remuneration are given to them in priority.
- Two4 2y ago
  You're absolutely right, not just mothers should be able to participate. However, the physical and emotional effects and trauma of childbirth are borne by women alone, so they're usually the party that needs to be incentivised. We're also operating within the social framework of Japan, which is deeply patriarchal.
Agraillo 2y ago
It's ironic that progress that freed many people from hard agricultural jobs and allowed society to free part of the population from daytime jobs was mostly directed at non-child-bearing categories like children and teens (to learn and study for future jobs) and elderly (to retire earlier than in previous centuries). The age ideal for raising children is also ideal for economics to be a part of it

xnx 2y ago

Efficiency is the new growth

majikaja 2y ago

Standards changed, lots of people are too unattractive to marry now.

deleted 2y ago
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majikaja 2y ago
Funny I'm being downvoted for this comment when it's you engineers that created the social media and dating apps that contributed to this situation.

bencarlos 2y ago

[dead]

msteffen 2y ago

Parenting threads always raise my hackles, and I’ve been up since 1:30 this morning with a sick kid so can’t not take this bait. In my opinion the issue is social, and it’s this: kids are essential to society but, these days, non-parents have little to no experience with kids. They’re entirely unfamiliar with even basic child physiology and psychology or the requirements of adequate childcare at different ages. Two top-of-mind examples of this manifesting, in my opinion: - When someone calls into work and says “I can’t come to work today because my kid is sick, I need to reschedule or hand off all my meetings” do they hear “no problem, thanks for being a parent?” or “can you join for just a little bit?” (“I would very much prefer that, but I don’t think you’ll like having a wailing kid on the call. Where would my kid be while I’m joined? Realistic suggestions only, please.”) Since I should probably make my comment relevant to TFA: most daycares do not allow you to bring your kid if they’re sick. So free daycare doesn’t at all ameliorate this very common and very stressful problem. - At the beginning of Covid, Google gave extra leave to parents, and non-parents were up in arms (including on HN IIRC. I’ll see if I can find the thread). How about, you can have extra leave if you spend it caring for kids, since the schools are closed, so there’s a shortage of childcare, which is a society-wide problem. I’m confident you’ll find that programming computers is an easier way to contribute in this crisis.

msteffen 2y ago
Another great comment noted that historically society made women do all the childcare and didn’t record what they thought about this, which, yes. It was probably always the case that non-parents knew hilariously little about kids, but back then, Mom had to deal with whatever crises emerged while Dad could work like he was single. No this was not fair.
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mc3301 2y ago
They aren't super common (like, each town has basically one), but here in Japan there are pediatric clinics with "sick daycare" where you can drop your sick child off in the morning to be looked after all day while you go to work. And they are (basically) free.