4 ms·

China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values

by wongarsu 2y ago

TulliusCicero 2y ago
This is a trade issue. If Country A bans imports from Country B, it's entirely reasonable to respond in kind.
- ritcgab 2y ago
  Then the US acts like China.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    Right now the issue is that the US mostly doesn't. The US market is far more open to China than the reverse, everyone knows this. Free trade should also be fair trade. Personally I wouldn't really give a shit about TikTok if the Chinese market was actually at all open to US companies for this area (and if there were reasonable protections about personal data in the US overall).
  - corimaith 2y ago
    Tit for Tat. Mercantalism is quite effective in a world of Free Trade, but if everyone turns Mercantalistic it becomes unsustainable and burns out. Once the most Mercantalistic actors are wiped out and EVERYONE understands why such policies were bad, we can return to the principles of Free Trade.
- hackeraccount 2y ago
  As with trade issue so with this. If Country B bans imports they are actually hurting Country B not Country A. China infringing on the inalienable rights of Chinese citizens is not a source of strength. It's weakness. It hurts China. Responding in kind is me responding to my neighbors fire by dousing the living room with gasoline and lighting a match.
ericmay 2y ago
Sure but what would that have to do with this action here? TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders. Likewise the United States has recognized that this is a serious threat as well and has sought to do the same. Both countries claim to want to defend their systems of governments so it stands to reason they are just taking reciprocal actions here. The “free speech” angle is just Chinese propaganda. We stop businesses from operating in the United States all the time and sanction companies and stop them from doing business within our financial network all the time. TikTok is just some random company and we can stop it from doing business here. Free speech isn’t a meaningful discussion point here.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  The US also has an enshrined freedom of association, and I personally believe the association rights of those users is being violated. Moreover it seems like security theater.
  - ericmay 2y ago
    No we don't - and we stop free associations all the time. I can't call up my non-existent buddies in Russia and say hey you guys need weapons? Well I'll sell them to you. We ban NVIDIA from selling advanced chips to China or North Korea. We prohibit US citizens from bribing officials in countries like Mexico for permits. > Moreover it seems like security theater. Meh. At a minimum it's just an economic reciprocation. If China doesn't allow our wildly successful social media companies to operate in China, we can as a matter of trade decide to stop their wildly successful social media company from operating in our country.
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      You can call them up and just chat or go have tea with them. The crime there is evading a weapons sanction. Controlling weapons sales isn’t an infringement on 1a association rights. That’s a stupid trade policy.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
China’s constitution definitely guarantees both, it even says without exception.
CommanderData 2y ago
It's freedom of speech until you say bad stuff about Americas 51st state in the middle east that's killing on average 5 children every day with our tax money. That was not the freedom of speech your supposed to hear on social media. That's why it's a threat. Be like Twitter and ban those accounts instead.
foogazi 2y ago
How can speech on TikTok be free if TikTok as a platform is not ?
- dialup_sounds 2y ago
  The law regulates TikTok as a business, not their speech.
disambiguation 2y ago
And America doesn't claim to uphold the rights of non-americans. If this was a ban on an American company it would be a different story.
neither_color 2y ago
"tit for tat" is a rational act after getting burned for cooperating. You start open and cooperative, expect reciprocity, and when you don't get it you finally retaliate. A bad faith actor might even accuse you of not living up to your core values in order to persuade you into continuing to play the losing strategy. The youngest tiktokers weren't even born yet or were just infants/toddlers when Google first got banned there. They may not understand what's going on here because by the time they came of age nearly all major western social media sites were already blocked there and for them it's status quo now. From their point of view the US is being the censor. They are at prime age to go on red book out of spite, but I hope they'll eventually understand.

China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values

TulliusCicero 2y ago

This is a trade issue. If Country A bans imports from Country B, it's entirely reasonable to respond in kind.

ritcgab 2y ago
Then the US acts like China.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Right now the issue is that the US mostly doesn't. The US market is far more open to China than the reverse, everyone knows this. Free trade should also be fair trade. Personally I wouldn't really give a shit about TikTok if the Chinese market was actually at all open to US companies for this area (and if there were reasonable protections about personal data in the US overall).
- corimaith 2y ago
  Tit for Tat. Mercantalism is quite effective in a world of Free Trade, but if everyone turns Mercantalistic it becomes unsustainable and burns out. Once the most Mercantalistic actors are wiped out and EVERYONE understands why such policies were bad, we can return to the principles of Free Trade.
hackeraccount 2y ago
As with trade issue so with this. If Country B bans imports they are actually hurting Country B not Country A. China infringing on the inalienable rights of Chinese citizens is not a source of strength. It's weakness. It hurts China. Responding in kind is me responding to my neighbors fire by dousing the living room with gasoline and lighting a match.

ericmay 2y ago

Sure but what would that have to do with this action here? TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders. Likewise the United States has recognized that this is a serious threat as well and has sought to do the same. Both countries claim to want to defend their systems of governments so it stands to reason they are just taking reciprocal actions here. The “free speech” angle is just Chinese propaganda. We stop businesses from operating in the United States all the time and sanction companies and stop them from doing business within our financial network all the time. TikTok is just some random company and we can stop it from doing business here. Free speech isn’t a meaningful discussion point here.

ch4s3 2y ago
The US also has an enshrined freedom of association, and I personally believe the association rights of those users is being violated. Moreover it seems like security theater.
- ericmay 2y ago
  No we don't - and we stop free associations all the time. I can't call up my non-existent buddies in Russia and say hey you guys need weapons? Well I'll sell them to you. We ban NVIDIA from selling advanced chips to China or North Korea. We prohibit US citizens from bribing officials in countries like Mexico for permits. > Moreover it seems like security theater. Meh. At a minimum it's just an economic reciprocation. If China doesn't allow our wildly successful social media companies to operate in China, we can as a matter of trade decide to stop their wildly successful social media company from operating in our country.
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    You can call them up and just chat or go have tea with them. The crime there is evading a weapons sanction. Controlling weapons sales isn’t an infringement on 1a association rights. That’s a stupid trade policy.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

China’s constitution definitely guarantees both, it even says without exception.

CommanderData 2y ago

It's freedom of speech until you say bad stuff about Americas 51st state in the middle east that's killing on average 5 children every day with our tax money. That was not the freedom of speech your supposed to hear on social media. That's why it's a threat. Be like Twitter and ban those accounts instead.

foogazi 2y ago

How can speech on TikTok be free if TikTok as a platform is not ?

dialup_sounds 2y ago
The law regulates TikTok as a business, not their speech.

disambiguation 2y ago

And America doesn't claim to uphold the rights of non-americans. If this was a ban on an American company it would be a different story.

neither_color 2y ago

"tit for tat" is a rational act after getting burned for cooperating. You start open and cooperative, expect reciprocity, and when you don't get it you finally retaliate. A bad faith actor might even accuse you of not living up to your core values in order to persuade you into continuing to play the losing strategy. The youngest tiktokers weren't even born yet or were just infants/toddlers when Google first got banned there. They may not understand what's going on here because by the time they came of age nearly all major western social media sites were already blocked there and for them it's status quo now. From their point of view the US is being the censor. They are at prime age to go on red book out of spite, but I hope they'll eventually understand.