6 ms·

Of course there are "reasonable justifications" for the shitty status quo, but that's kind of the point. Things are shitty for reasons but not for good reasons.

by gizmo 2y ago

Of course there are "reasonable justifications" for the shitty status quo, but that's kind of the point. Things are shitty for reasons but not for good reasons. The author points to Japan to illustrate that you do get measurably better results when people habitually try to do good work. We're not actually doomed to have crappy furniture, flimsy and buggy appliances, byzantine legal codes, ugly architecture, and hostile infrastructure forever. This society is the product of the choices we've made collectively and if we made different choices we could have a much better (or much worse) society.

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
Cheaper lighting costs across an entire city are a very good reason. "Ugly architecture" is subjective. A lot of architects care very much, but they follow the academic line and lack the imagination and empathy to understand why elements of that aesthetic are unpopular and impractical - a completely different problem, even if it causes related outcomes. Bugs are easy to write and hard to fix. MBA culture as a whole is fixated on quick extractive shareholder returns, not on celebrating supreme engineering quality. MBAs care very much too, but not about the things the author (and probably most of us) care about. Some people do care but are simply not good at their jobs. Even if you do care, people will assume you don't. Anyone who's done direct customer facing work or even just sold stuff online will know that people love to nitpick. And so on. The problem is narcissism vs empathy. Caring means trying to have some insight the experience of others. Narcissism is on a scale from blank unawareness of others to outright hostility, whether overt or covert. There's a lot more of the latter than the former around at the moment, and corporate and economic values provide some conveniently expedient justifications for it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- gizmo 2y ago
  The problem, essentially, is that you can't rage against the dying of the light all by yourself. If you're an architect and badly want to build great housing your goals are frustrated every step of the way. By people who don't care enough to do all the little things that are necessary to make a building 5% better in 20 subtle ways. You can only fight indifference for so long before you're empty. What is the point of lighting being cheap if it produces a city where people don't want to live? Good lighting isn't unaffordable either. Cities with good lighting actually exist! And yet people will insist shitty lighting is somehow necessary. It isn't.
- ericmay 2y ago
  > "Ugly architecture" is subjective. I think this actually illustrates the author's point and gets at the heart of the cultural malaise we are experiencing. If everything is subjective, nothing can be improved because nothing can be better than something else. But this isn't the case. The Mona Lisa is objectively better than anything I have ever painted. Architecture is no different. Some buildings quite literally are better than others and we can scientifically study this [1]. We can recognize that all opinions are valid, but that some are better than others. We do this in daily life too, if you are in the ER and the trauma team comes and tells you their opinion on your condition, you will value that opinion over the opinion of the person outside waiting for a ride. Art, music, architecture - no different. Tens of millions of people visit the Notre Dame Cathedral. Why? Religious reasons of course, but many visit simply to marvel at the wonderful architecture. Contrast that with Rocky City Church [2] here in Columbus where I live. A big, bland, gray "modern" building that as our standards have dropped to nothing (remember everything is subjective so nothing can be better than anything else) we have come to accept as the norm. This is the Nobody Cares phase of not just architecture but society as well. [1] https://annsussman.com [2]https://rockcitychurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/1.png
  - bccdee 2y ago
    > The Mona Lisa is objectively better than anything I have ever painted. No it isn't. If I saw one of your paintings and liked it better, there would be no way for you to prove me wrong. My opinion might be highly unpopular, but that wouldn't make it objectively incorrect.
    - ericmay 2y ago
      How would you compare the two?
    - mcswell 2y ago
      Then substitute one of my drawings (or paintings, if I painted) of a person. There's no way in the world that anyone--anyone!--would think mine were better. That's because mine are truly awful.
fennecbutt 2y ago
Eh, I think as always is still just comes down to resource contention right at the root of the issues. We still all monk e, some things will never change.
marcosdumay 2y ago
> Things are shitty for reasons but not for good reasons. I dunno. At the first problem, impeding cyclists that want to merge into a walkway zooming at 20mph without paying enough attention to even see their lane is ending is a quite good reason. Maybe he should be asking for some "cyclist-calming" measure instead, so they will slow down before not being able to make into the walkway.
- wpm 2y ago
  There’s a huge difference between “impeding” and “causing you to fucking crash”. Like, what an insane take.
  - pbronez 2y ago
    Solution then is to add slowing features uphill from the cut over.
    - dzamo_norton 2y ago
      "We'll fix our hardware bugs in software" :)
    - zelphirkalt 2y ago
      Sort of suggested by the article. The article mentions putting information up, so that bikers will not be surprised.
  - watwut 2y ago
    The curvet is not causing crash. Bikes have ability to slow down or even stop.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to cyclists, but the bike-murdering signpost right there is all the proof I need that there are people who hate them more than I do and that at least one of those people works in city government. I winced. It might actually be a felony, that act of transportation engineering. I'd at least listen to the prosecutor's theory of the crime.
stdbrouw 2y ago
But is that even true? My mid-tier appliances are all great and I love my IKEA furniture. Some things suck some of the time. Other things don't.
indoordin0saur 2y ago
Related to the Japan thing, but one thing they don't do well is avoiding harsh white lights. It's far more common to find unpleasant fluorescent or LED lighting there than the US. The idea that warmer (or even dimmer) lights are preferable in most situations isn't a widespread opinion there apparently.
mcswell 2y ago
IMO, the switch from sodium lamps to LED lamps (one of the article's gripes) was for a good reason: lower use of electricity. I also happen to think that the light from sodium lamps looked ugly--much worse than a properly working LED lamp--but maybe that's a personal opinion. (I would also question the study that "showed" white light reduced melatonin production, but that's a different issue.) (Re "properly working LED": apparently many street lamps in the US were built by a single company, and that company's bulbs are prone to turning purple over time. But that wasn't a reason not to make the switch back when, because at the time no one knew this would happen. It's being fixed now by replacing the purple bulbs with better quality LED bulbs.)
tqi 2y ago
They might not be good reasons to you, but that is not the same thing as not caring. If someone cooks something that without salt for health reasons, that doesn't mean they don't care about salt as much as me.
stevedekorte 2y ago
But street lights don't have to use harsh 3000 kelvin LEDs, there are warm light LEDs (2400-2700 kelvin). For example, these lights are widely available for home, yet most people just buy the 3000K LED bulbs because (IME) it doesn't occur to them that there is a strong aesthetic (and health) difference between these colors. i.e. They don't care.
- bagels 2y ago
  Besides the color temperature, they are way too bright. It's like daylight in front of my house since they changed the lamps.
  - araes 2y ago
    A lot of America especially has an issue with too many lights, and the lights themselves are too bright relative to the population. Found what I thought was a cool image on Wikipedia Commons while searching the subject that has the light use relative to the population density. Green's lots of light use, red is lots of population density. America's bright green light use. Yellow is fairly equivalent light use to population density. [1] [1] Light Use vs Population Density, WP Commons, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Earth_lights_vs_population_density.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Earth_li...
  - TimSchumann 2y ago
    They shine through my windows at night and are truly horrific. They’re down the entire alleyway behind my place, and a walk to the grocery store at 7pm during the winter makes your body and mind think it’s sunrise.
- stdbrouw 2y ago
  It's probably getting better but the amber-colored LEDs used to be rather inefficient. I've also heard that white lighting can slightly improve reaction times of those in traffic and leads to slightly clearer captures for security cameras. I personally think these benefits do not outweigh how extremely ugly and unwelcoming they are, but "city officials just don't care" is not what led to the adoption of white LED street lighting at all.
Vampiero 2y ago
> The author points to Japan to illustrate that you do get measurably better results when people habitually try to do good work People in Japan habitually kill themselves because of their stupid work culture. Maybe that's not the best example.
- relistan 2y ago
  That’s not limited to Japan. And besides it’s a strange take to argue that you shouldn’t acknowledge good thing A because unrelated thing B is bad there.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- NeutralCrane 2y ago
  Your rebuttal is dated. Suicide rates have been steadily declining in Japan and rising in the West to the point where suicides are actually less common in Japan than they are in the US currently. So perhaps it is a good example.

by gizmo 2y ago

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago

Cheaper lighting costs across an entire city are a very good reason. "Ugly architecture" is subjective. A lot of architects care very much, but they follow the academic line and lack the imagination and empathy to understand why elements of that aesthetic are unpopular and impractical - a completely different problem, even if it causes related outcomes. Bugs are easy to write and hard to fix. MBA culture as a whole is fixated on quick extractive shareholder returns, not on celebrating supreme engineering quality. MBAs care very much too, but not about the things the author (and probably most of us) care about. Some people do care but are simply not good at their jobs. Even if you do care, people will assume you don't. Anyone who's done direct customer facing work or even just sold stuff online will know that people love to nitpick. And so on. The problem is narcissism vs empathy. Caring means trying to have some insight the experience of others. Narcissism is on a scale from blank unawareness of others to outright hostility, whether overt or covert. There's a lot more of the latter than the former around at the moment, and corporate and economic values provide some conveniently expedient justifications for it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gizmo 2y ago
The problem, essentially, is that you can't rage against the dying of the light all by yourself. If you're an architect and badly want to build great housing your goals are frustrated every step of the way. By people who don't care enough to do all the little things that are necessary to make a building 5% better in 20 subtle ways. You can only fight indifference for so long before you're empty. What is the point of lighting being cheap if it produces a city where people don't want to live? Good lighting isn't unaffordable either. Cities with good lighting actually exist! And yet people will insist shitty lighting is somehow necessary. It isn't.
ericmay 2y ago
> "Ugly architecture" is subjective. I think this actually illustrates the author's point and gets at the heart of the cultural malaise we are experiencing. If everything is subjective, nothing can be improved because nothing can be better than something else. But this isn't the case. The Mona Lisa is objectively better than anything I have ever painted. Architecture is no different. Some buildings quite literally are better than others and we can scientifically study this [1]. We can recognize that all opinions are valid, but that some are better than others. We do this in daily life too, if you are in the ER and the trauma team comes and tells you their opinion on your condition, you will value that opinion over the opinion of the person outside waiting for a ride. Art, music, architecture - no different. Tens of millions of people visit the Notre Dame Cathedral. Why? Religious reasons of course, but many visit simply to marvel at the wonderful architecture. Contrast that with Rocky City Church [2] here in Columbus where I live. A big, bland, gray "modern" building that as our standards have dropped to nothing (remember everything is subjective so nothing can be better than anything else) we have come to accept as the norm. This is the Nobody Cares phase of not just architecture but society as well. [1] https://annsussman.com [2]https://rockcitychurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/1.png
- bccdee 2y ago
  > The Mona Lisa is objectively better than anything I have ever painted. No it isn't. If I saw one of your paintings and liked it better, there would be no way for you to prove me wrong. My opinion might be highly unpopular, but that wouldn't make it objectively incorrect.
  - ericmay 2y ago
    How would you compare the two?
  - mcswell 2y ago
    Then substitute one of my drawings (or paintings, if I painted) of a person. There's no way in the world that anyone--anyone!--would think mine were better. That's because mine are truly awful.

fennecbutt 2y ago

Eh, I think as always is still just comes down to resource contention right at the root of the issues. We still all monk e, some things will never change.

marcosdumay 2y ago

> Things are shitty for reasons but not for good reasons. I dunno. At the first problem, impeding cyclists that want to merge into a walkway zooming at 20mph without paying enough attention to even see their lane is ending is a quite good reason. Maybe he should be asking for some "cyclist-calming" measure instead, so they will slow down before not being able to make into the walkway.

wpm 2y ago
There’s a huge difference between “impeding” and “causing you to fucking crash”. Like, what an insane take.
- pbronez 2y ago
  Solution then is to add slowing features uphill from the cut over.
  - dzamo_norton 2y ago
    "We'll fix our hardware bugs in software" :)
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    Sort of suggested by the article. The article mentions putting information up, so that bikers will not be surprised.
- watwut 2y ago
  The curvet is not causing crash. Bikes have ability to slow down or even stop.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to cyclists, but the bike-murdering signpost right there is all the proof I need that there are people who hate them more than I do and that at least one of those people works in city government. I winced. It might actually be a felony, that act of transportation engineering. I'd at least listen to the prosecutor's theory of the crime.

stdbrouw 2y ago

But is that even true? My mid-tier appliances are all great and I love my IKEA furniture. Some things suck some of the time. Other things don't.

indoordin0saur 2y ago

Related to the Japan thing, but one thing they don't do well is avoiding harsh white lights. It's far more common to find unpleasant fluorescent or LED lighting there than the US. The idea that warmer (or even dimmer) lights are preferable in most situations isn't a widespread opinion there apparently.

mcswell 2y ago

IMO, the switch from sodium lamps to LED lamps (one of the article's gripes) was for a good reason: lower use of electricity. I also happen to think that the light from sodium lamps looked ugly--much worse than a properly working LED lamp--but maybe that's a personal opinion. (I would also question the study that "showed" white light reduced melatonin production, but that's a different issue.) (Re "properly working LED": apparently many street lamps in the US were built by a single company, and that company's bulbs are prone to turning purple over time. But that wasn't a reason not to make the switch back when, because at the time no one knew this would happen. It's being fixed now by replacing the purple bulbs with better quality LED bulbs.)

tqi 2y ago

They might not be good reasons to you, but that is not the same thing as not caring. If someone cooks something that without salt for health reasons, that doesn't mean they don't care about salt as much as me.

stevedekorte 2y ago

But street lights don't have to use harsh 3000 kelvin LEDs, there are warm light LEDs (2400-2700 kelvin). For example, these lights are widely available for home, yet most people just buy the 3000K LED bulbs because (IME) it doesn't occur to them that there is a strong aesthetic (and health) difference between these colors. i.e. They don't care.

bagels 2y ago
Besides the color temperature, they are way too bright. It's like daylight in front of my house since they changed the lamps.
- araes 2y ago
  A lot of America especially has an issue with too many lights, and the lights themselves are too bright relative to the population. Found what I thought was a cool image on Wikipedia Commons while searching the subject that has the light use relative to the population density. Green's lots of light use, red is lots of population density. America's bright green light use. Yellow is fairly equivalent light use to population density. [1] [1] Light Use vs Population Density, WP Commons, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Earth_lights_vs_population_density.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Earth_li...
- TimSchumann 2y ago
  They shine through my windows at night and are truly horrific. They’re down the entire alleyway behind my place, and a walk to the grocery store at 7pm during the winter makes your body and mind think it’s sunrise.
stdbrouw 2y ago
It's probably getting better but the amber-colored LEDs used to be rather inefficient. I've also heard that white lighting can slightly improve reaction times of those in traffic and leads to slightly clearer captures for security cameras. I personally think these benefits do not outweigh how extremely ugly and unwelcoming they are, but "city officials just don't care" is not what led to the adoption of white LED street lighting at all.

Vampiero 2y ago

> The author points to Japan to illustrate that you do get measurably better results when people habitually try to do good work People in Japan habitually kill themselves because of their stupid work culture. Maybe that's not the best example.

relistan 2y ago
That’s not limited to Japan. And besides it’s a strange take to argue that you shouldn’t acknowledge good thing A because unrelated thing B is bad there.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
NeutralCrane 2y ago
Your rebuttal is dated. Suicide rates have been steadily declining in Japan and rising in the West to the point where suicides are actually less common in Japan than they are in the US currently. So perhaps it is a good example.