4 ms·

I live here and we are definitely looking toward impending water shortages, and no one care at all. Nestle is in the process of building a 200 acre coffee cream

by imzadi 2y ago

I live here and we are definitely looking toward impending water shortages, and no one care at all. Nestle is in the process of building a 200 acre coffee creamer factory. The major flower delivery services grow their flowers here. We have tons of cotton and alfalfa fields. There are 100s of golf courses and in the wealthier areas everyone has a lush green lawn.

0_____0 2y ago
Sounds like a resource that isn't appropriately priced
- amelius 2y ago
  priced -> rationed
  - mrsilencedogood 2y ago
    in capitalism, prices are literally how rationing happens. the theory is that it distributes the resources to those who can make them most productive. here, theoretically the water will be used more productively by chipmakers than by farmers, so the chipmakers will be able to out-bid the farmers and the water will be allocated to them. this is the "invisible hand" of the free market.
    - loeg 2y ago
      Also worth pointing out that residential water uses like bathing/washing water and especially drinking water will easily outbid alfalfa farmers.
    - amelius 2y ago
      No, rationing is the complete opposite and ensures that not just rich people can have access to a resource. This is basically why the word "rationing" exists in the first place. What good is being "productive" (whatever your definition of it) if poor people die from lack of access to water because chips need to exist.
      - mantas 2y ago
        What’s the point of rationing water to monoculture alfalfa fields? Looks like chips factory in that area makes much more sense.
      - kragen 2y ago
        We aren't talking about drinking-water quantities of water here but about irrigation quantities. Poor people in Arizona are not in danger of dying from thirst. Think Milagro Beanfield War, not Dune. Poor people in Phoenix get their water from the water utility, which gives you 3740+ gallons of potable water per month for US$4.64: https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservicessite/Documents/Rates_Effective_March_2025.pdf https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservicessite/Documents/Rates_Ef... That works out to 0.032¢ per liter. A quarter (25¢) will buy you 760 liters of water, enough to survive for three months. That's about 1000× lower than a price at which even Phoenix's homeless might start dying of thirst due to the cost of water. (Homeless people don't pay the water utility, but they get water from people who do.) Poor people in the country get their water from wells, which cost money to drill but basically nothing to pump more water from. Rationing might be a reasonable thing to do to keep the aquifer from being depleted, but it would be likely to hit poor people much harder than rich people, because poor people don't have the political influence to prevent the enactment of regulations that would hurt them badly, such as a requirement for an environmental review before drilling a new drinking-water well. Rationing could cause poor people to die from lack of access to water. Markets won't, unless you're talking about something like a Mars colony.
        amelius 2y ago
        Well if you put it like that then I'm starting to wonder what shortage we are talking about in the first place.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        A bunch of entities have perpetual promises for specific amounts of water, and sometimes the promises are too big and can't be fulfilled, or a city needs some water and can't get it allocated, or stuff like that. So, shortages. Add in some market mechanics and that problem disappears. The only entities left without water are the ones unwilling to pay a small fraction of a cent.
- leptons 2y ago
  They sold land rights to the Saudis who then siphoned off the water (now revoked said rights). "[The Saudis] used sprinklers to grow alfalfa in La Paz County and exports it to feed dairy cattle in Saudi Arabia. The company did not pay for the water it used under the old agreement." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arabia-water-access-arizona/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arabia-water-access-arizo...
- syncsynchalt 2y ago
  Water rights in the western US are mercenary. There's a healthy market in prior appropriation rights. Just because people don't like what the water is used for doesn't mean the water isn't priced appropriately. You'll still get farmers growing thirsty / pricey crops in the desert if it covers the cost of irrigation.
- paustint 2y ago
  We pay about $130/mo for water in north phoenix even if we don't use a drop.
  - 0_____0 2y ago
    That's nuts. Is that just the customer fee?

by imzadi 2y ago

0_____0 2y ago

Sounds like a resource that isn't appropriately priced

amelius 2y ago
priced -> rationed
- mrsilencedogood 2y ago
  in capitalism, prices are literally how rationing happens. the theory is that it distributes the resources to those who can make them most productive. here, theoretically the water will be used more productively by chipmakers than by farmers, so the chipmakers will be able to out-bid the farmers and the water will be allocated to them. this is the "invisible hand" of the free market.
  - loeg 2y ago
    Also worth pointing out that residential water uses like bathing/washing water and especially drinking water will easily outbid alfalfa farmers.
  - amelius 2y ago
    No, rationing is the complete opposite and ensures that not just rich people can have access to a resource. This is basically why the word "rationing" exists in the first place. What good is being "productive" (whatever your definition of it) if poor people die from lack of access to water because chips need to exist.
    - mantas 2y ago
      What’s the point of rationing water to monoculture alfalfa fields? Looks like chips factory in that area makes much more sense.
    - kragen 2y ago
      We aren't talking about drinking-water quantities of water here but about irrigation quantities. Poor people in Arizona are not in danger of dying from thirst. Think Milagro Beanfield War, not Dune. Poor people in Phoenix get their water from the water utility, which gives you 3740+ gallons of potable water per month for US$4.64: https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservicessite/Documents/Rates_Effective_March_2025.pdf https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservicessite/Documents/Rates_Ef... That works out to 0.032¢ per liter. A quarter (25¢) will buy you 760 liters of water, enough to survive for three months. That's about 1000× lower than a price at which even Phoenix's homeless might start dying of thirst due to the cost of water. (Homeless people don't pay the water utility, but they get water from people who do.) Poor people in the country get their water from wells, which cost money to drill but basically nothing to pump more water from. Rationing might be a reasonable thing to do to keep the aquifer from being depleted, but it would be likely to hit poor people much harder than rich people, because poor people don't have the political influence to prevent the enactment of regulations that would hurt them badly, such as a requirement for an environmental review before drilling a new drinking-water well. Rationing could cause poor people to die from lack of access to water. Markets won't, unless you're talking about something like a Mars colony.
      - amelius 2y ago
        Well if you put it like that then I'm starting to wonder what shortage we are talking about in the first place.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        A bunch of entities have perpetual promises for specific amounts of water, and sometimes the promises are too big and can't be fulfilled, or a city needs some water and can't get it allocated, or stuff like that. So, shortages. Add in some market mechanics and that problem disappears. The only entities left without water are the ones unwilling to pay a small fraction of a cent.
leptons 2y ago
They sold land rights to the Saudis who then siphoned off the water (now revoked said rights). "[The Saudis] used sprinklers to grow alfalfa in La Paz County and exports it to feed dairy cattle in Saudi Arabia. The company did not pay for the water it used under the old agreement." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arabia-water-access-arizona/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arabia-water-access-arizo...
syncsynchalt 2y ago
Water rights in the western US are mercenary. There's a healthy market in prior appropriation rights. Just because people don't like what the water is used for doesn't mean the water isn't priced appropriately. You'll still get farmers growing thirsty / pricey crops in the desert if it covers the cost of irrigation.
paustint 2y ago
We pay about $130/mo for water in north phoenix even if we don't use a drop.
- 0_____0 2y ago
  That's nuts. Is that just the customer fee?